Don't you think this motor are for a totally different application?
They are huge and my guess is that they are not so quiet but maybe I am wrong 🙂
I think this link can be useful to everybody so I am going to share it in here
Motor Driver System for Record Player
Motor Driver System for Record Player
try these ebay numbers. Sorry I can't provide links to them.
171233284528
301079515992
291036067744
191036858458
160686297112
There were a couple that vanished between my searches from yesterday to today.
These are not tiny, not overly large either. When you see them, you'll get a better idea.
171233284528
301079515992
291036067744
191036858458
160686297112
There were a couple that vanished between my searches from yesterday to today.
These are not tiny, not overly large either. When you see them, you'll get a better idea.
Some early Hitachi cassette decks (also ones sold by Radio Shack) had really nice 120V hysteresis synchronous motors. (vintage 1973 - 1976 or thereabouts) Perhaps one of these motors or something similar would be worth investigating. I believe they ran at 600rpm or 1800rpm depending on the number of poles..
There's a medium sized Papst in my old Rek-O-Kut table. 120 VAC synchronous motors make a lot of sense if you're going to run off the line. Those motors were smooth by virtue of mass, good bearings and good magnetic design.
My Thorens (actually a Pro-ject) uses what looks like a stepper motor, 10 pole I think, running at about 229 RPM from a little multi-phase control board. Input is about 16 VAC. IMO, it's a poor motor to plinth mount, but would work great if mounted on an isolated pod. The motor doesn't make any noise, but does have some cogging that gets transmitted to the plinth and is very hard to isolate. I wonder if they can be had as a replacement part? They're obviously used in many Thorens and Pro-ject tables from that factory.
edit- as per the previous post, I know there were also some very high quality motors used in R-R decks.
My Thorens (actually a Pro-ject) uses what looks like a stepper motor, 10 pole I think, running at about 229 RPM from a little multi-phase control board. Input is about 16 VAC. IMO, it's a poor motor to plinth mount, but would work great if mounted on an isolated pod. The motor doesn't make any noise, but does have some cogging that gets transmitted to the plinth and is very hard to isolate. I wonder if they can be had as a replacement part? They're obviously used in many Thorens and Pro-ject tables from that factory.
edit- as per the previous post, I know there were also some very high quality motors used in R-R decks.
What is cogging on the motor?
I am thinking what field might use high quality motors? Funny but sad...not audio which uses general purpose medium quality motors...maybe medical field ...don't know...
I am thinking what field might use high quality motors? Funny but sad...not audio which uses general purpose medium quality motors...maybe medical field ...don't know...
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If you can take the motor which you now have and turn the spindle and feel what is apparently something that interrupts smooth turning...like a magnetic attraction to a position, think of that as cogging. Fax machines use very small stepper motors & you can feel the cogging in them. I think cogging is limited to mators that have permanent magnets built into them. Don't hold me to that...
Of the motors I put ebay numbers to, scratch the last one. While it is a proper synchronous motor, it is a size up from the others.
Motors like those are used in industrial applications for lots of different things where of course, constant speed is required...The Bodine, for example, was modified with a speed reducing gearbox to convert old tower clocks to non windup use. Also new ones with a more modern style mechanism. Also motion picture projectors & even cameras because the film speed must remain constant. Chart recorders? Conveyors? What else? Tape recorders...what else??? Turntables for broadcast use...
Of the motors I put ebay numbers to, scratch the last one. While it is a proper synchronous motor, it is a size up from the others.
Motors like those are used in industrial applications for lots of different things where of course, constant speed is required...The Bodine, for example, was modified with a speed reducing gearbox to convert old tower clocks to non windup use. Also new ones with a more modern style mechanism. Also motion picture projectors & even cameras because the film speed must remain constant. Chart recorders? Conveyors? What else? Tape recorders...what else??? Turntables for broadcast use...
Thanks for the explanation.
Again, my question regarding these motors you listed: don't you think they won't be as low noise as a tt system needs?
My idea is that the bigger the motor, the higher the torque, the less the cogging but the higher the noise and vibration.
Am I right?
Again, my question regarding these motors you listed: don't you think they won't be as low noise as a tt system needs?
My idea is that the bigger the motor, the higher the torque, the less the cogging but the higher the noise and vibration.
Am I right?
These motors don't cog with respect to my previous explanation. They really don't vibrate. They do make more noise which is why they were mounted in a console or similar piece of "furniture."
Have you ever been in the presence of a R2R tape deck? Some casette decks?
Noise is similar to that.
Have you ever been in the presence of a R2R tape deck? Some casette decks?
Noise is similar to that.
Yes I have been in presence of motors on decks cassettes and they make noise like you described but they also vibrate.
They are suitable a magnetic reading, not so much in my opinion in a TT.
Maybe I am saying something completely wrong, but, if you hear noise from a motor, this should suggest that it will likely make some vibration as well.
They are suitable a magnetic reading, not so much in my opinion in a TT.
Maybe I am saying something completely wrong, but, if you hear noise from a motor, this should suggest that it will likely make some vibration as well.
Cogging is a function of load, rpm and the number of poles in the motor. Also geometry plays a significant part with shaded pole motors /skewed rotors having negligible cogging.
The Papst motor you link to is very good, incredibly controllable, utterly load invariant, but it's noisy as hell. A friend has one from the very first sample batch that were made available, we had high hopes for it...
The Papst motor you link to is very good, incredibly controllable, utterly load invariant, but it's noisy as hell. A friend has one from the very first sample batch that were made available, we had high hopes for it...
oh interesting! Is there any interesting AC motor that can be qualified as high performer?
Also, I am reading more about TW Acustic and find it very interesting.
for instance, I would be curious to know what material is the belt made of. they adopt a flat belt with flat pulley.
Also on their external motor's upgrade, they have 3 motors in one block. can anybody tell me if there is any advantage in having an arrangement like that?
Shouldn't the noise transmitted be X3 the noise of 1 motor? 😱
Stefanoo, i'm not being rude but could you explain your obsession with AC Synchronous motors?
almost every single manufacturer of worth is moving or has moved over to DC motors as the technology of driving them properly is understood more, add into this modern manufacturing and you have a far superior (waits for the die-hard AC fans to go mental) method of spinning the platter of a turntable.
have a look at the Funk Firm for a DC upgrade. all reports are very very positive in the ability of low noise and steady speed compared to AC motors.
if i had the money then this is exactly what i would be doing but i'm poor so i cant and it's good old clunky vibrating AC for me.
almost every single manufacturer of worth is moving or has moved over to DC motors as the technology of driving them properly is understood more, add into this modern manufacturing and you have a far superior (waits for the die-hard AC fans to go mental) method of spinning the platter of a turntable.
have a look at the Funk Firm for a DC upgrade. all reports are very very positive in the ability of low noise and steady speed compared to AC motors.
if i had the money then this is exactly what i would be doing but i'm poor so i cant and it's good old clunky vibrating AC for me.
Biblio you are not rude...don't worry.
You brought up a good point. I have never refused the use of DC motor, the reason why I haven't considered them is well explained on the link you attached.
While they are quieter than AC motor, they drift with Temperature and Load condition and they are not speed stable. Speed stability IMHO comes before an absolute quiet motor, if motor of the AC is reasonably low.
You need a fairly hard servo to control them which then ruins the sound.
Another practical reason I have for the AC motor, is that the controller that Pyramid makes for it is outstanding. It has speed control and a tachometer built in, which tells you what speed you are at and you can be sure that the speed you achieve is near perfect.
Can you find such a controller for a DC motor?
You brought up a good point. I have never refused the use of DC motor, the reason why I haven't considered them is well explained on the link you attached.
While they are quieter than AC motor, they drift with Temperature and Load condition and they are not speed stable. Speed stability IMHO comes before an absolute quiet motor, if motor of the AC is reasonably low.
You need a fairly hard servo to control them which then ruins the sound.
Another practical reason I have for the AC motor, is that the controller that Pyramid makes for it is outstanding. It has speed control and a tachometer built in, which tells you what speed you are at and you can be sure that the speed you achieve is near perfect.
Can you find such a controller for a DC motor?
Stefanoo & others:
This is a little off topic but may be helpful to the readers of this thread.
I want to first state that I have no financial gain or interest in TW Acoustics or Highwater Sound.
I am personal friends with Thomas Woshnick ( TW Acoustics ) and Jeff Catalano ( Highwater sound and Importer of TW products ) and help Jeff set up almost all the major audio shows in the U.S. for the last several years. I mentioned in another thread that I am a hobby machinist with good equipment. I made a very nice turntable with a 44lb platter ,Tungsten carbide shaft and very precise bearing. The BIG problem was the motor. I asked Thomas about his opinion about the double motor and flywheel from VPI as drive system and he said it would work but I could do better as the ( Hurst ) motors were of poor quality. Jeff wound up giving me a single TW motor and controller and could not be happier. The Motor pod weighs about 12lbs and uses a flat precision made rubber like belt that is about .030 In thick and about .165 in. wide. The motor is much more powerful than the Hurst motor.
At a Rocky Mountain Audio show Jeff was using the TW Black Knight turntable with the 3 motors and it sounded fantastic. There was about 15 to 20 people in the room when one person asked Jeff what would the turntable sound like using just one motor so Jeff hooked up just one motor and played one side of a record and it sounded great. Then Jeff hooked up the 3 motors and played the same side--that was an eye ( ear ) opener, everyone in the room heard better and more precise imaging, better mico details, better dynamics and the entire presentation seemed slightly louder.
I was in disbelief as were the others in the room. Thomas told me it is the much greater amount of torque that the 3 motors provided that overcame the minute speed variation from stylus drag !!!! It seemed hard for me to grasp the concept but there it was for all to hear.
I am not very good in electronics so if it were not for Thomas and Jeff I would be looking into Maxon EC motors and controllers for turntable use. There may be other possibilities that I don't know.
I know most people cannot afford these expensive options and DIY would be the way to go. I hope some reasonable options can be found.
As a side note. Thomas is an electronics genius and taught electronics in Germany for many years. He researched and tried every motor option available for turntable use and what he uses is the result of that research. If there was a better turntable motor/controller available he would be using it.
Joe
This is a little off topic but may be helpful to the readers of this thread.
I want to first state that I have no financial gain or interest in TW Acoustics or Highwater Sound.
I am personal friends with Thomas Woshnick ( TW Acoustics ) and Jeff Catalano ( Highwater sound and Importer of TW products ) and help Jeff set up almost all the major audio shows in the U.S. for the last several years. I mentioned in another thread that I am a hobby machinist with good equipment. I made a very nice turntable with a 44lb platter ,Tungsten carbide shaft and very precise bearing. The BIG problem was the motor. I asked Thomas about his opinion about the double motor and flywheel from VPI as drive system and he said it would work but I could do better as the ( Hurst ) motors were of poor quality. Jeff wound up giving me a single TW motor and controller and could not be happier. The Motor pod weighs about 12lbs and uses a flat precision made rubber like belt that is about .030 In thick and about .165 in. wide. The motor is much more powerful than the Hurst motor.
At a Rocky Mountain Audio show Jeff was using the TW Black Knight turntable with the 3 motors and it sounded fantastic. There was about 15 to 20 people in the room when one person asked Jeff what would the turntable sound like using just one motor so Jeff hooked up just one motor and played one side of a record and it sounded great. Then Jeff hooked up the 3 motors and played the same side--that was an eye ( ear ) opener, everyone in the room heard better and more precise imaging, better mico details, better dynamics and the entire presentation seemed slightly louder.
I was in disbelief as were the others in the room. Thomas told me it is the much greater amount of torque that the 3 motors provided that overcame the minute speed variation from stylus drag !!!! It seemed hard for me to grasp the concept but there it was for all to hear.
I am not very good in electronics so if it were not for Thomas and Jeff I would be looking into Maxon EC motors and controllers for turntable use. There may be other possibilities that I don't know.
I know most people cannot afford these expensive options and DIY would be the way to go. I hope some reasonable options can be found.
As a side note. Thomas is an electronics genius and taught electronics in Germany for many years. He researched and tried every motor option available for turntable use and what he uses is the result of that research. If there was a better turntable motor/controller available he would be using it.
Joe
Hi Joe,
thank you for your comment.
Isn't their motor a simple German Papst? Do you think it is possible to buy 3 of his motors and the belt? Building a pad can be outsource eventually.
question for you: did he have 3 motors in triangle along the platter or the unit with 3 motors on the same box doing a serpentine with the belt going through?
thank you for your comment.
Isn't their motor a simple German Papst? Do you think it is possible to buy 3 of his motors and the belt? Building a pad can be outsource eventually.
question for you: did he have 3 motors in triangle along the platter or the unit with 3 motors on the same box doing a serpentine with the belt going through?
Stefanoo;
I doubt Thomas would sell any separate parts for a diy project. He put lots of time, money, and research into his products. He modifies the motors he uses but to what extent I do not know.
The three motors in the pod are set up in a triangle with one motor running in reverse.
Joe
I doubt Thomas would sell any separate parts for a diy project. He put lots of time, money, and research into his products. He modifies the motors he uses but to what extent I do not know.
The three motors in the pod are set up in a triangle with one motor running in reverse.
Joe
well they should sell spare parts for who owns their tables as well? I mean buy a separate part like let's say I want to buy the motor upgrade or just the motor, he charges for that too, I wouldn't see anything wrong with that. VPI sells their stuff separately as well.
I am going to give a call to the distributor and see how much the motor upgrade unit alone cost. The one with the 3 motors inside.
If price will be outrageous I will obviously find a different solution.
Last I checked on internet the 3 motor unit seemed to be on the 3000Euros range which would be pretty scandalous...but let me double check first. 😱
I am going to give a call to the distributor and see how much the motor upgrade unit alone cost. The one with the 3 motors inside.
If price will be outrageous I will obviously find a different solution.
Last I checked on internet the 3 motor unit seemed to be on the 3000Euros range which would be pretty scandalous...but let me double check first. 😱
the sped drift and temperature problems have been put to rest with Arthur's K-Drive. the great thing about a good DC is there is no need to decouple it from the deck with heavy pods to quash the vibration. i'm a fan of AC drives due to the good torque they produce but they are a complete nightmare in terms of vibration. unless the circuitry is very very advanced with crystal lock AC motors can also drift due to being locked to the mains.
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