If you haven't gone too far already I'd take a step back. First of all you need to consider the size of the venues and how low you want to play. For really getting loud, horn loaded is definitely the way to go. I have some experience in doing sound systems for decent size clubs and touring type applications. One of the best overall subwoofer designs out there is the LAB Sub designed by Tom Danley. All of the info is over at prosoundweb and you can find the plans here in both metric and inch units:
http://www.prosoundweb.com/lsp/
As with any horn subwoofer, the cutoff frequency and efficiency are determined mostly by the mouth area of the horn. As a result putting them in clusters greatly increases the low end efficiency and the low end cutoff. We did 4 of these pretty much as a free addition to the line arrays we did in Nick Barnett's Five Six club in GB here that has since been shut down. You can see a couple pics of the arrays and the LABs underneath on the floor.
Ideally we would have kept all 4 of the subwoofers together in one cluster, but due to the screen being there we couldn't do so. In any case, the efficiency of these in a bank of four is right around 110dB 1W all the way down to the cutoff frequency of 30Hz. This is amazingly low for any PA type subwoofer as you will see most will have a cutoff in the 45-50hz range. Maximum output with the cluster of 4 of these is in excess of 145dB, again all the way to the 30hz cutoff range. This kind of extension and output capacity is literally unheard of. These 4 LABsubs alone filled the 8000sq ft area and many people described the sound on the dance floor as if they were sitting inside a loud car but with a lot more clarity.
As far as the drivers go, each cabinet has a pair of LAB12 drivers made by eminence. With the drivers in parallel and the loading of the horn they are essentially a 4ohm nominal load. We originally ran each one off of a bridged Behringer EP2500, but had major issues with the amps the first night. We swapped them out for QSC PLX3402's (3400W bridged 4ohm) and had no issues from then on.
All in all, you're looking at much better power handling, extension, output capability, and then also reliability than with the others you were looking at.
John
http://www.prosoundweb.com/lsp/
As with any horn subwoofer, the cutoff frequency and efficiency are determined mostly by the mouth area of the horn. As a result putting them in clusters greatly increases the low end efficiency and the low end cutoff. We did 4 of these pretty much as a free addition to the line arrays we did in Nick Barnett's Five Six club in GB here that has since been shut down. You can see a couple pics of the arrays and the LABs underneath on the floor.
Ideally we would have kept all 4 of the subwoofers together in one cluster, but due to the screen being there we couldn't do so. In any case, the efficiency of these in a bank of four is right around 110dB 1W all the way down to the cutoff frequency of 30Hz. This is amazingly low for any PA type subwoofer as you will see most will have a cutoff in the 45-50hz range. Maximum output with the cluster of 4 of these is in excess of 145dB, again all the way to the 30hz cutoff range. This kind of extension and output capacity is literally unheard of. These 4 LABsubs alone filled the 8000sq ft area and many people described the sound on the dance floor as if they were sitting inside a loud car but with a lot more clarity.
As far as the drivers go, each cabinet has a pair of LAB12 drivers made by eminence. With the drivers in parallel and the loading of the horn they are essentially a 4ohm nominal load. We originally ran each one off of a bridged Behringer EP2500, but had major issues with the amps the first night. We swapped them out for QSC PLX3402's (3400W bridged 4ohm) and had no issues from then on.
All in all, you're looking at much better power handling, extension, output capability, and then also reliability than with the others you were looking at.
John
Nahh, why do you think that its complicated ... it looks pretty simple to me, well the arrangement around driver mounting might be a bit tricky with several odd angled cuts ... but there are very good detailed drawings and even photos of building process, very nice indeed and even information of where to buy the special designed LAB12 driver whether you live in US or EU 😎
Hmm you could try a bank of large tapped horns. These drivers look like they have potential and they are pretty inexpensive. http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=264-387
Use a couple Behringer EP2500s plenty of power: http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=248-747
I'd use 4 of the Seleniums: two in parallel bridged into each EP2500s. You could make 2 tapped horns each with 2 18s.
That would cost:
Behringer EP2500 X2 =$700
SWS800 X4 = $640
4 sheets of MDF= $100
Glue, screws, etc=$50
Speakon connectors =$50
Speaker wire=$100
Roll on bedliner(for covering the enclosure, it'll make it rugged and look nice)=$200
Total=$1940 approx.
So realistically I think this idea will work well. Tom Danely has proved tapped horns work well in pro audio. I don't honestly know how well those drivers would work, but you could simulate them in Akabak, etc.
Use a couple Behringer EP2500s plenty of power: http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=248-747
I'd use 4 of the Seleniums: two in parallel bridged into each EP2500s. You could make 2 tapped horns each with 2 18s.
That would cost:
Behringer EP2500 X2 =$700
SWS800 X4 = $640
4 sheets of MDF= $100
Glue, screws, etc=$50
Speakon connectors =$50
Speaker wire=$100
Roll on bedliner(for covering the enclosure, it'll make it rugged and look nice)=$200
Total=$1940 approx.
So realistically I think this idea will work well. Tom Danely has proved tapped horns work well in pro audio. I don't honestly know how well those drivers would work, but you could simulate them in Akabak, etc.
I suppose that tapped "horns" with 18" will be VERY big ?
Allthough the Selenium driver looks very nice, it has rather limited Xmax fore monster SPL ... I suppose that 8-9mm Xmax is standard in Pro sub drivers
Question is if a sub is really needed all, considering the low budget ... maybe it would be better to go fore a knocking midbass with multiple 15" that would reach a bit higher
Allthough the Selenium driver looks very nice, it has rather limited Xmax fore monster SPL ... I suppose that 8-9mm Xmax is standard in Pro sub drivers
Question is if a sub is really needed all, considering the low budget ... maybe it would be better to go fore a knocking midbass with multiple 15" that would reach a bit higher
Man, this is getting better. I guess we'll have to continue speculation for a few more days, now that all of these radically different ideas are rolling in! I guess there's more people with free time on the weekend...
On a side note, don't get too focused on budget. The DJ wants to build a continually evolving (think malignant tumor) kick *** system, and he's willing to shell out the cash as we progress. I handle all of the graphic design for his events, and I have a shop where I can build all of the horns. He's not paying me - I just love the music he makes, and he's my bro. We have an idea that we can make a party production company with three things - awesome music, great design and killer sound system. We want to make a system that does a better job reproducing D&B, as well as being able to sound great with some of the Neu Rave stuff like Justice, etc.
You guys are giving us great ideas! Don't stop now...
Since the feedabck is so helpful, I'll go ahead and lay out the things that go beyond this bass-focused thread: We want to have clarity in the sound without the kind of treble that makes your ears hurt. It just seems that most shows I've gone to don't have well-designed sound systems. So we want your ideas on the mid-range and treble as well. We eventually want to go into the territory of near subsonic bass - and we'll market the parties as having it.
I can make seperate threads for these, and just incase you're wondering - we're scouring the internet for other sources of info - and we've found many. The thing is - this forum has the most in-depth info we're getting, and without all the immature crap that you usually find on forums...
On a side note, don't get too focused on budget. The DJ wants to build a continually evolving (think malignant tumor) kick *** system, and he's willing to shell out the cash as we progress. I handle all of the graphic design for his events, and I have a shop where I can build all of the horns. He's not paying me - I just love the music he makes, and he's my bro. We have an idea that we can make a party production company with three things - awesome music, great design and killer sound system. We want to make a system that does a better job reproducing D&B, as well as being able to sound great with some of the Neu Rave stuff like Justice, etc.
You guys are giving us great ideas! Don't stop now...
Since the feedabck is so helpful, I'll go ahead and lay out the things that go beyond this bass-focused thread: We want to have clarity in the sound without the kind of treble that makes your ears hurt. It just seems that most shows I've gone to don't have well-designed sound systems. So we want your ideas on the mid-range and treble as well. We eventually want to go into the territory of near subsonic bass - and we'll market the parties as having it.
I can make seperate threads for these, and just incase you're wondering - we're scouring the internet for other sources of info - and we've found many. The thing is - this forum has the most in-depth info we're getting, and without all the immature crap that you usually find on forums...
On the previous page, John shows a system that he designed. (BTW, It looks really awesome, John.)
John, I did run across that design the other day, and it looked easy enough to build. It seemed to be more of a concentric horn - I guess the perfect arc is what would differentiate it from a folded horn. Compared to the 1850 horn design, will this really create lower frequencies? I was under the impression that larger speakers have more of a chance to create lower frequencies at higher volumes. I also noticed that according to what is in your post, these ProSound horns may use less amperage to produce lower bass at higher volumes. Is this true, and how am I - the hobbyist - to understand how this can be so? I would like to see more discussion about this. What does everyone else think?
It's my nature, In this situation I have to think about how to make something bigger and more expensive. SO, just to throw it out there - What if I took these plans for the ProSound Horn and scaled them up proportionally to accomodate two 18-1000 VOID and built a monster version? I know from experience that some things in other fields of interest - like model airplanes - don't work when you scale them up or down, so it's a chance this principle occurs with speakers and enclosures as well. Let me know what you all think about this...
Finally, John - in your post you mention club size, well the club in your picture is about this size of many clubs here in Atlanta. Our goal is to get the low bass to fill the dance floor. We also want to go to the bottom of sonic bass frequencies, because lots of D&B has information that goes into this area, even if it's only accents in the melody of the bassline, or chaotic spinoffs that delve into these lower frequencies. (This is the stuff that makes us D&B fans crazy, and it's rare that someone comes to town with enough balls/clarity in their system to do this.) Add to this that the DJ wants to produce tracks that exploit our setup, and we have this other theory that he could create basslines that emphasize the points of resonance in our system - which we'll have to see how that works...
Finally, thanks again John for taking time to contribute your experience. I don't know how I'm going to take you all out for a beer, but I'm sure there will eventually be an online bar for this purpose...
John, I did run across that design the other day, and it looked easy enough to build. It seemed to be more of a concentric horn - I guess the perfect arc is what would differentiate it from a folded horn. Compared to the 1850 horn design, will this really create lower frequencies? I was under the impression that larger speakers have more of a chance to create lower frequencies at higher volumes. I also noticed that according to what is in your post, these ProSound horns may use less amperage to produce lower bass at higher volumes. Is this true, and how am I - the hobbyist - to understand how this can be so? I would like to see more discussion about this. What does everyone else think?
It's my nature, In this situation I have to think about how to make something bigger and more expensive. SO, just to throw it out there - What if I took these plans for the ProSound Horn and scaled them up proportionally to accomodate two 18-1000 VOID and built a monster version? I know from experience that some things in other fields of interest - like model airplanes - don't work when you scale them up or down, so it's a chance this principle occurs with speakers and enclosures as well. Let me know what you all think about this...
Finally, John - in your post you mention club size, well the club in your picture is about this size of many clubs here in Atlanta. Our goal is to get the low bass to fill the dance floor. We also want to go to the bottom of sonic bass frequencies, because lots of D&B has information that goes into this area, even if it's only accents in the melody of the bassline, or chaotic spinoffs that delve into these lower frequencies. (This is the stuff that makes us D&B fans crazy, and it's rare that someone comes to town with enough balls/clarity in their system to do this.) Add to this that the DJ wants to produce tracks that exploit our setup, and we have this other theory that he could create basslines that emphasize the points of resonance in our system - which we'll have to see how that works...
Finally, thanks again John for taking time to contribute your experience. I don't know how I'm going to take you all out for a beer, but I'm sure there will eventually be an online bar for this purpose...
From proper reading you would know who designed that subhorn
You would also know that it has a cutoff at 30hz, no other "ordinary" PA speaker will go deeper, or let alone do that
As John mentions, place all the subhorns in the middle side by side and it will go even deeper
Your plan is ok, but it might take years of practice to get there
There have been many in here asking "how do I design the worlds best speaker" ... to be honest, those who can dont need to ask
Its not my intent to be negative, just trying to be realistic
You would also know that it has a cutoff at 30hz, no other "ordinary" PA speaker will go deeper, or let alone do that
As John mentions, place all the subhorns in the middle side by side and it will go even deeper
Your plan is ok, but it might take years of practice to get there
There have been many in here asking "how do I design the worlds best speaker" ... to be honest, those who can dont need to ask
Its not my intent to be negative, just trying to be realistic
Thanks for the clarification and grounding. No negativity perceived, no ego damage, etc... I'm only trying to build some great speakers. In the process, you will find that I like to speculate on ridiculous/unattainable ideas without clearly seperating them from any of my other thoughts. I am an artist and designer - it's part of how I work.
(BTW, I didn't mean to imply that John designed that subhorn, I was referring to the setup of the speakers in the club - the pictures, you know?)
As far as my plan to make the best subwoofers ever - I've become intensely interested in this idea in itself, although it's a higher goal than my true goal for this thread. I always shoot for a higher mark to satisfy the true goal - which, in this case, was to make great subwoofers for D&B music.
So, back to my question:
If I modified this ProSound subhorn design to house two 18" 18-1000 VOIDs, made two cabinets for 4 speakers in all, assuming I powered them properly, wouldn't it have a stronger sound than the prescribed scale+speakers? Or is it better to go with the scale as it is, and use the LAB12 Eminence drivers?
(BTW, I didn't mean to imply that John designed that subhorn, I was referring to the setup of the speakers in the club - the pictures, you know?)
As far as my plan to make the best subwoofers ever - I've become intensely interested in this idea in itself, although it's a higher goal than my true goal for this thread. I always shoot for a higher mark to satisfy the true goal - which, in this case, was to make great subwoofers for D&B music.
So, back to my question:
If I modified this ProSound subhorn design to house two 18" 18-1000 VOIDs, made two cabinets for 4 speakers in all, assuming I powered them properly, wouldn't it have a stronger sound than the prescribed scale+speakers? Or is it better to go with the scale as it is, and use the LAB12 Eminence drivers?
To the moderator - sorry about the cursing! I don't use forums often, and I write just like I hear it in my mind. I totally forgot to look out for that sort of thing.
boukisan said:
The design was done by Tom Danley. If you look through the LABSub forum, you'll find tons of information on them. Many of the questions you asked were asked also during the design. With a horn subwoofer you're really not concerned with the size of the driver so much as you are with matching the driver properly to the horn. The design is intended to play loud, be efficient, and have incredible bass extension that is nearly unheard of. Few commercial subwoofers even compare. Those that do really cost a good chunk of money. The design was also made to be somewhat portable. The dimensions of 22.5" x 45" x 45" make them fit nicely between the wheel wells in a standard cargo van or pickup truck.
The LABsub has a much longer path length than the 1850 horn and a more exponential flare rate. It will play much lower and with much greater efficiency. There really isn't much benefit to going with a larger scale version. When it was originally designed many people asked about using 15" drivers instead of 12" drivers. The issue is that you aren't going to find a 15" driver that properly fits all the required parameters. The LAB12 woofer was designed by Tom specifically for this design.
As you mentioned, you want to play low. The LABsubs do that. As I said, most people compared the low end volume to that of a loud car system. A prosound subwoofer taht plays 30hz with that kind of output potential and efficiency is just scary. There are hundreds of these built all over the US now. I'm sure if you go on prosoundweb and ask, there are some within driving distance that you could go listen to.
Joohn
John
Its ok to think big🙂 and you wont get better support than what John is giving you here, and Danley is one of the masters, at least as far as I know ... just build the thing😉 this horn is a real beauty, and at some point I had drawn up the same design when people let me know that it had been made allready, namely a LABhorn ... point is that its a very logical and natural way to design a frontloaded horn using the box to its fullest ... lots of people have build the LABhorn and praise it highly ... I suppose this version is a later and more refined one, with its special designed driver
Thanks, John. I'll go to prosound and read. It sounds like this is where I want to go, especially because of the efficiency of this setup. I'm also really into the comparative cost of this design, as well as being able to get the drivers without having to order from the UK.
Tinitus, you're right I do need to just build it.
I'll start with 4 of 'em - right now.
You guys are great - thanks for your patience! I'll let you know how it goes...
Pics to come...
Tinitus, you're right I do need to just build it.
I'll start with 4 of 'em - right now.
You guys are great - thanks for your patience! I'll let you know how it goes...
Pics to come...
This puzzles me a bit
Somewhere it says that each horn holds 2 drivers ... its not really clear by looking at the drawings ? 😕
John, how high can you cross(xo) this basshorn ?
Somewhere it says that each horn holds 2 drivers ... its not really clear by looking at the drawings ? 😕
John, how high can you cross(xo) this basshorn ?
Good luck with the build, I will be waiting to see the outcome. Just one other point, DJs get carried away, do some research on limiters. 😉
tinitus said:
Hi tinitus,
One woofer on each side:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
(See the 3D-Renderings at ProSoundWeb)
Thats great, thanks
Its a really slick trick with 2 drivers opposite each other, loading the horn symmetrically
Its a really slick trick with 2 drivers opposite each other, loading the horn symmetrically
Limiters - yeah, I'll make note of it. Actually, we just rented speakers and amplifiers for an event next weekend - the guy took ten minutes to explain how it would be our responsibility if we blew the speakers. We ended up reserving more speakers just so we could run them lower to get the same volume. I mean, it's the same principle I use when playing guitar - amps just sound better at a volume that is much lower than maximum.
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