Hey Punkrokr. Glad you found the Madison EXECUTIONER-X18. I hoped you would. Not cheap, but certainly should be worth the $$.
I have never used the Madison stuff, but there are a lot of guys who like them. Remember that link to the thread with the giant twin 21" divers? Those are Madisons, IIRC. Friends I trust have told me the Madisons are OK, but usually not quite up to full specs. Still, they more than enough for your living room!
If you do choose to go with the 18s, look at the Eminence Beta15LTA. It would make an excellent mid with an 18. It's a fullrange driver, so you can cross it high to the tweeter, if need be.
What size box do you want? Got any idea?
I have never used the Madison stuff, but there are a lot of guys who like them. Remember that link to the thread with the giant twin 21" divers? Those are Madisons, IIRC. Friends I trust have told me the Madisons are OK, but usually not quite up to full specs. Still, they more than enough for your living room!
If you do choose to go with the 18s, look at the Eminence Beta15LTA. It would make an excellent mid with an 18. It's a fullrange driver, so you can cross it high to the tweeter, if need be.
What size box do you want? Got any idea?
As far as woodwork goes I'm covered because my dad has done it for 40+ years and he has everything I'll need for free.
Plus he'll help me out with making the cabinets.
So there's NO problem with the woodwork.
Ok, and I've made the decision to get one 18" woofer pair for now then put another pair in when I can afford it
but the problem now is choice.
It's strictly between the EXUCITIONEER
( which by the way is one hell of a name)
And the DRAGON.
( not so selective with a name is it?)
in simple terms a want the one of these two that will knock out some booming bass.
and judging by the specs it looks like the DRAGON is pulling ahead but not by much.
( plus I like that it's all black)
As far as the enclosures I want the DEEPEST, BOOMING bass that I can get from either of those woofers, I think I'll be using the Dragons. Sinply put I want to get everything I can get as far as bass goes out of them. Would something around 10 cu. ft do that? I don't think it will do though.
I'm gonna seperate the woofer from the tweeter/mid range. I've been planning to do that since before I was posting here.
Oh and is the Eminence Beta 15LTA a 15" full range?
Because the closest thing there is to that is the Beta 12LTA.
Which is a 12".
Did I just not look hard enough or was that a typo?
well, since I've heard so much about it I'm going with Eminence for my mid range.
I don't know exactly what driver to get.
Perhaps a link, anyone?
And when I do put in twin 18" drivers will i need another mid or will the eminence hold it's own against the two 18" inch beasts?
I noticed there was or still is a controversy over the tweeter selection.
I'm staying by the 97db sensitivity rating with my cabinet so I want a tweeter that will fit in right with the woofer ( later to be woofers) and the mid.
But don't worry I don't plan and turning it up anywhere near that loud except to make my friends envy me and my neighboors fear me.
I think I've read that you can match up a tweeters SPL to other lower SPL drivers ( not saying that 97 db is low) by deducting it's power input but I don't think, so what exactly is the theory behind,I'm just curious. Of course I don't want to have to go through all of the complications of messing with my crossover just to equalize my tweeter.
So does anyone have a tweeter that will fit into that catagory.
P.S. I really like this one but it looks like it'll overwhelm my other drivers.
Plus he'll help me out with making the cabinets.
So there's NO problem with the woodwork.
Ok, and I've made the decision to get one 18" woofer pair for now then put another pair in when I can afford it
but the problem now is choice.
It's strictly between the EXUCITIONEER
( which by the way is one hell of a name)
And the DRAGON.
( not so selective with a name is it?)
in simple terms a want the one of these two that will knock out some booming bass.
and judging by the specs it looks like the DRAGON is pulling ahead but not by much.
( plus I like that it's all black)
As far as the enclosures I want the DEEPEST, BOOMING bass that I can get from either of those woofers, I think I'll be using the Dragons. Sinply put I want to get everything I can get as far as bass goes out of them. Would something around 10 cu. ft do that? I don't think it will do though.
I'm gonna seperate the woofer from the tweeter/mid range. I've been planning to do that since before I was posting here.
Oh and is the Eminence Beta 15LTA a 15" full range?
Because the closest thing there is to that is the Beta 12LTA.
Which is a 12".
Did I just not look hard enough or was that a typo?
well, since I've heard so much about it I'm going with Eminence for my mid range.
I don't know exactly what driver to get.
Perhaps a link, anyone?
And when I do put in twin 18" drivers will i need another mid or will the eminence hold it's own against the two 18" inch beasts?
I noticed there was or still is a controversy over the tweeter selection.
I'm staying by the 97db sensitivity rating with my cabinet so I want a tweeter that will fit in right with the woofer ( later to be woofers) and the mid.
But don't worry I don't plan and turning it up anywhere near that loud except to make my friends envy me and my neighboors fear me.
I think I've read that you can match up a tweeters SPL to other lower SPL drivers ( not saying that 97 db is low) by deducting it's power input but I don't think, so what exactly is the theory behind,I'm just curious. Of course I don't want to have to go through all of the complications of messing with my crossover just to equalize my tweeter.
So does anyone have a tweeter that will fit into that catagory.
P.S. I really like this one but it looks like it'll overwhelm my other drivers.
OK, seems like an 18" is good idea
And a efficiency of 95db makes sense
May I suggest you choose a nice affordable 18" and we/you can get on with some calculations - it will be a keeper, so it would be a good idea to build woofer in a seperate box, I think
So that it costwise not get out of hand, I suggest you use following drivers - in a couple of years you might want to build a better top, so save on mid and tweeter
Theese cost about 25USD ea...well actually as it turns out, it may sound like a keeper too
On the dome tweeter you can mount a horn/waveguide, will look like a horn, and sound fantastic......VERY nice I think
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=299-440
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=264-578
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=270-308
And a efficiency of 95db makes sense
May I suggest you choose a nice affordable 18" and we/you can get on with some calculations - it will be a keeper, so it would be a good idea to build woofer in a seperate box, I think
So that it costwise not get out of hand, I suggest you use following drivers - in a couple of years you might want to build a better top, so save on mid and tweeter
Theese cost about 25USD ea...well actually as it turns out, it may sound like a keeper too
On the dome tweeter you can mount a horn/waveguide, will look like a horn, and sound fantastic......VERY nice I think
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=299-440
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=264-578
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=270-308
Holy s***,
This is off topic but dang.
Check this out.
I know that they make speaker this big but what would you do with this and where would you put it?
Anyway, I was going over these posts and this project is starting to sound like one of my earlier more obnoxious plans.
I don't want it to come out that way, having just the "holy s***, that's big" image, by the loks of it when I do get finished it will be pretty close to that.
But I wan't something that sounds good.
And thank you guys. I was hardheaded and arrogant. Trying to throw together some pro drivers and DJ equipment hoping it'd sound good just because they came with a gazillion watt rating.
Now, I have learned so much and I'm still learning. Now I can look at speaker specs and at least have a loose idea of what it all means instead of finding the one with the biggest egotistical power rating.
This is off topic but dang.
Check this out.
I know that they make speaker this big but what would you do with this and where would you put it?
Anyway, I was going over these posts and this project is starting to sound like one of my earlier more obnoxious plans.
I don't want it to come out that way, having just the "holy s***, that's big" image, by the loks of it when I do get finished it will be pretty close to that.
But I wan't something that sounds good.
And thank you guys. I was hardheaded and arrogant. Trying to throw together some pro drivers and DJ equipment hoping it'd sound good just because they came with a gazillion watt rating.
Now, I have learned so much and I'm still learning. Now I can look at speaker specs and at least have a loose idea of what it all means instead of finding the one with the biggest egotistical power rating.
k tinitus has done you a big favor. The Hammer he mentioned is made by Eminence and has EXACTLY the same specs, That means it is actually the exact same driver but but it is HALF price!!! Good job tinitus !!!
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=299-440
Just get one of these for each box. Wot a deal!!!!
BUT as far as a dome tweeter- I just can't see it.
I can't see how a dome will keep up with pro speakers,just no way. I can't agree with that choice Besides, it isn't efficient enough...
Others please correct me if I'm wrong.
OK Punkrockr, here's the third thing about pro tweeters you have to learn: They are almost always much more efficient than the mids and woofers. That's good, because you put a control (an L-pad- they cost maybe $5 ) in there to turn them down and then they match the other drivers AND they aren't as stressed. SO it is a win/win and a good thing and don't worry your head about that.
I would say there is no controversy about the tweeters. Get a horn of some sort, Either the one I recommended for $39
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=290-534
or this bullet from Pyle for 25
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=272-115
Either one will work . We don't know what the Pyle sounds like, but it is probably OK, looks good, and is cheap..
The Selenium Slot type is probably the best but maybe not very flashy looking to you:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=264-360
I think your system is now an 18", a 8" and a horn tweeter.
Any dire warnings against this anyone?
I will check out the 18" , but make sure to get something that lists its specs (even though they are prob wrong) You need those specs to design the box!
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=299-440
Just get one of these for each box. Wot a deal!!!!
BUT as far as a dome tweeter- I just can't see it.
I can't see how a dome will keep up with pro speakers,just no way. I can't agree with that choice Besides, it isn't efficient enough...
Others please correct me if I'm wrong.
OK Punkrockr, here's the third thing about pro tweeters you have to learn: They are almost always much more efficient than the mids and woofers. That's good, because you put a control (an L-pad- they cost maybe $5 ) in there to turn them down and then they match the other drivers AND they aren't as stressed. SO it is a win/win and a good thing and don't worry your head about that.
I would say there is no controversy about the tweeters. Get a horn of some sort, Either the one I recommended for $39
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=290-534
or this bullet from Pyle for 25
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=272-115
Either one will work . We don't know what the Pyle sounds like, but it is probably OK, looks good, and is cheap..
The Selenium Slot type is probably the best but maybe not very flashy looking to you:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=264-360
I think your system is now an 18", a 8" and a horn tweeter.
Any dire warnings against this anyone?
I will check out the 18" , but make sure to get something that lists its specs (even though they are prob wrong) You need those specs to design the box!
That Executioner has specs that are hard to believe, but that doesn't mean it isn't any good. 103 db (at how many watts input?) with an x-max of .75? Wow, but is that possible?Maybe someone will comment..
punkrokr1701 said:
Now that Rules! Good for you. Not only will they sound great, theyll look great too.
Not a bad idea. But here's the problem. If you use 2 drivers - you need twice the box. Yep, 2 times as big, or your bass will roll off fast. So you have so think about that.
Get whichever of the 18s makes you happy. You like the Executioner? Get it.
Probably. When I get home tonight I'll run the numbers. If someone else can simulate it too, that would be nice.
A typo on my part, sorry. (too much sun on the brain) The Beta 12LTA is a great driver. Very good midrange and it works very well with an 18". You can still use the same horn tweeter at the top. If it doesn't fit the budget, get that Hammer 8". Either one will make you happy.
The Beta 12LTA will have no problem. The Hammer 8 should be able to keep up too, depending on were you cross over. It will get very, very loud - don't worry. And don't worry about the tweeter SPL right now, as long as it's higher than your mid driver. Read what Variac says above. You will be putting an "L-Pad" inline with the tweeter so you can turn it up and down to match the mids.
Variac said:
No dire warings from me. =)
I would prefer to see him use the Beta 12LTA for his mid because it works so well with an 18". But i'm sure that 8 inch hammer will drive the nails plenty good! Either one will be a winner.
No, not really. This will be very good. Not just crazy. But crazy enough.
Go down this road and you will. I envy you already.
Hmmm 12" with a whizzer for the mid with an 18" woofer- intriging..
Could work well...
Punkrockr:
I'm suggesting you make you first cabinet with one 18 and a mid and a tweeter, then make another cabinet if you get a second woofer. Make the cabinet the same width and depth as the first but less tall of course, without the separate interior box for the mid inside it can be smaller. Then just stack them. That will give you a lot of versitility too.
Otherwise you will have a box with half the volume divided off from the
rest of it, just sitting there empty and doing nothing.
Could work well...
Punkrockr:
I'm suggesting you make you first cabinet with one 18 and a mid and a tweeter, then make another cabinet if you get a second woofer. Make the cabinet the same width and depth as the first but less tall of course, without the separate interior box for the mid inside it can be smaller. Then just stack them. That will give you a lot of versitility too.
Otherwise you will have a box with half the volume divided off from the
rest of it, just sitting there empty and doing nothing.
well, Variac,
I'm really free as for as th size of my cabinets goes.
The only limitations I really have is the height and width of the cabinet.
7 ft tall is about as heigh as I can go. My ceiling is only 7 ft 6in at the most.
and so the drivers look good from the front I
I'm really free as for as th size of my cabinets goes.
The only limitations I really have is the height and width of the cabinet.
7 ft tall is about as heigh as I can go. My ceiling is only 7 ft 6in at the most.
and so the drivers look good from the front I
Gee guys, this is going well I think, ....sounds good that woodwork is planned allready.....now we must carefull not to confuse Punk too much, and ourselves fore that matter....but Punk seems to be able to see through it all....and thats very important, so we can discuss and share important information without too much confusion
Variac, my reason fore suggesting a quality 93.5 db softdome is taht its actually real cheap...and would secure a lot of quality highend....a safe way so to speak....if it really is that efficient....adding a waveguide is said to do a lot of good...and will propably help further in sensitivity....and its close enough to 95db Hammer 8" ( might only be 94db)....sound would be more "hifi-ish" with richer sound.....but it might not have enough "sparkle"....to the liking of Punk....not really sure....but compared to a 2 bucks horn.....but if Punk choose a midrange with higher SPL, this dome wont be sufficient
Slot tweeter looks ok...but cant be crossed as low as a dome.....looking at FR you will see its falling at higher frequencies....which might sound nice, but it means attennuate to 95db will be lower at higher FR......and its a lot of attennuation.....sound may be a bit "thin"...but I guess it will work fine....a little low powerhandling....but might be a good choice
Mind you....crossing woofer low can eat some of its sensitivity....in general very high efficiency means less bass....and lower sensitivity....more bass......less rise at higher frequency
With mids its the same thing....less efficiensy often equals better linearity and less peaking
We must keep in mind that good linearity/combined with very high sensitivity often cost serious money....but there are allways cheap "sleepers" with potential....if we can find it
95db is a lot....with this size of speaker..... up and running Punk wont ever dream of more/bigger
Variac, my reason fore suggesting a quality 93.5 db softdome is taht its actually real cheap...and would secure a lot of quality highend....a safe way so to speak....if it really is that efficient....adding a waveguide is said to do a lot of good...and will propably help further in sensitivity....and its close enough to 95db Hammer 8" ( might only be 94db)....sound would be more "hifi-ish" with richer sound.....but it might not have enough "sparkle"....to the liking of Punk....not really sure....but compared to a 2 bucks horn.....but if Punk choose a midrange with higher SPL, this dome wont be sufficient
Slot tweeter looks ok...but cant be crossed as low as a dome.....looking at FR you will see its falling at higher frequencies....which might sound nice, but it means attennuate to 95db will be lower at higher FR......and its a lot of attennuation.....sound may be a bit "thin"...but I guess it will work fine....a little low powerhandling....but might be a good choice
Mind you....crossing woofer low can eat some of its sensitivity....in general very high efficiency means less bass....and lower sensitivity....more bass......less rise at higher frequency
With mids its the same thing....less efficiensy often equals better linearity and less peaking
We must keep in mind that good linearity/combined with very high sensitivity often cost serious money....but there are allways cheap "sleepers" with potential....if we can find it
95db is a lot....with this size of speaker..... up and running Punk wont ever dream of more/bigger
sorry bout that last post I took to long editing it and it wouldn't post. I have to go to school. So I'll post it later.
Oh, and I got a wrestling meet today so wish me luck.
Althouugh probably won't need it.
Oh, and I got a wrestling meet today so wish me luck.
Althouugh probably won't need it.
Been looking at those Dayton 18".....about 300 liter gives around 30hz....but the one "on sale" has a VAS on 300liter, I think....that could be too close to cabinet volume
DRAGON 18".....VAS 186 liter....means it calculates box of 120 liter
Now I think experts on this field are needed
1. VAS must be as big as possible to make a big cabinet
2. Lowest possible Fs....its not good to tune BR/box Fc very close to/or below driver Fs
Please correct me if wrong
So at the moment my choice would be
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=295-085
I think this may be the time to do some calculations...so Punk can buy the right driver
DRAGON 18".....VAS 186 liter....means it calculates box of 120 liter
Now I think experts on this field are needed
1. VAS must be as big as possible to make a big cabinet
2. Lowest possible Fs....its not good to tune BR/box Fc very close to/or below driver Fs
Please correct me if wrong
So at the moment my choice would be
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=295-085
I think this may be the time to do some calculations...so Punk can buy the right driver
Hi Tin,
Vas and Qts must be considered together and then you can select a box volume to suit the T/S parameters.
if Qts is about 0.4 then the Fs is about Fb for the lowest flat response.
Well, to me it makes no point to have a VAS=186, if you want 350 liter enclosure.....or tune BR to 30hz if driver Fs=35hz
I think I better stay clear on this subject
I think I better stay clear on this subject
Good luck with the match!
Before you run off and buy either one of the Madison 18s, you should do some research. We need to ask around for people who have used them.
There are several 18 inchers in the same price range, you should look at them too.
I ran a simulation of several $150 18s in Unibox. All in a 7 cubic foot box (200L). All tuned a little high to give you about a 3dB bump in the low end.
Below you will see a chart of these woofers:
Madison Dragon
Madison Executioner
Selenium WPU1809
Eminence Sigma
Dayton PF460.
These are all just box models. The actual FR measurements are not taken into account. But it will give you an idea. They all model pretty much the same.
It's a great driver. Mates really well with an 18".
Before you run off and buy either one of the Madison 18s, you should do some research. We need to ask around for people who have used them.
There are several 18 inchers in the same price range, you should look at them too.
I ran a simulation of several $150 18s in Unibox. All in a 7 cubic foot box (200L). All tuned a little high to give you about a 3dB bump in the low end.
Below you will see a chart of these woofers:
Madison Dragon
Madison Executioner
Selenium WPU1809
Eminence Sigma
Dayton PF460.
These are all just box models. The actual FR measurements are not taken into account. But it will give you an idea. They all model pretty much the same.
It's a great driver. Mates really well with an 18".
Attachments
Nice!
To squeese an 18" into 200 liter is not the best I think
Try model Dayton in 300-350 liter, tuned to 30hz
I think low Fs, 20-25hz, is an important factor, and the standard in PRO 18" low bass woofers, means "soft" suspension and "moderate" SPL, more low bass, better suited for hifi
Higher Fs, 30-40hz, means very high SPL, but also loss of quality lowend
But ofcourse this may somewhat relate to which midrange Punk will choose
To squeese an 18" into 200 liter is not the best I think
Try model Dayton in 300-350 liter, tuned to 30hz
I think low Fs, 20-25hz, is an important factor, and the standard in PRO 18" low bass woofers, means "soft" suspension and "moderate" SPL, more low bass, better suited for hifi
Higher Fs, 30-40hz, means very high SPL, but also loss of quality lowend
But ofcourse this may somewhat relate to which midrange Punk will choose
OK, allow me to try and summ things up, the way I see it....
"Hifi" STUDIO version
Dayton 18" PF 460
Hammer 8"
Vifa DX 25 with horn/waveguide, crossover 3-5khz
HighPower PA version
Any PRO 18" with Fs=30-35hz
12" widerange ( price ? )
"Slottweeter" , crossover 6-8khz
"Hifi" STUDIO version
Dayton 18" PF 460
Hammer 8"
Vifa DX 25 with horn/waveguide, crossover 3-5khz
HighPower PA version
Any PRO 18" with Fs=30-35hz
12" widerange ( price ? )
"Slottweeter" , crossover 6-8khz
OK, Parts express seems to be following our discussion!!!!!!
http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcase/blue/index.html
http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcase/blue/driver.html
check it out. VERY relevent discussion.
Recommends the HAmmer 18" with the 8" hammer mid and a cheaper Eminence tweet (?) Some discussion about cabinet volume- the point being (as we have discussed) that we need to get a bit of a bump around 60-70 hz to get that live sound.
The cabinet doesn't have to be that big really. It is a concern we have here- wil the 18" have good impact? HE actually says that a smaller cabinet might be better as it doesn't have that snap that some want. The box looks small, but keep in mind that t hat's a n 18" woofer!!
Certainly looks like a nice design as a starting point!!
Shows that the 18 and the 8" can live together.
The waveguide horn on the tweeter is a good idea-not quite as efficient, but we have plenty of efficiency in the tweeter. A better horn driver might be indicated.
I think Punk would like this a lot and its tough enough to be used as a PA when he starts a band! A problem is that the 18" woofers ewon't be around to buy when he wants 2 more. BUT they are the same as an Eminence model pretty much so that's good information.
I guess thats my concern about the dome tweeter- it will work in his house, and sound wonderful, but with the other drivers, this box will be used for a PA sooner or later!!
The "classic" approach would be the horn tweeter, the 8" upper mid, a 15" lower mid, then 18" bass drivers I believe.
Thats another possibility- The first cabinet has horn 8" and 15- which will hit hard. The next cabinet has an 18"
Too many choices!!
http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcase/blue/index.html
http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcase/blue/driver.html
check it out. VERY relevent discussion.
Recommends the HAmmer 18" with the 8" hammer mid and a cheaper Eminence tweet (?) Some discussion about cabinet volume- the point being (as we have discussed) that we need to get a bit of a bump around 60-70 hz to get that live sound.
The cabinet doesn't have to be that big really. It is a concern we have here- wil the 18" have good impact? HE actually says that a smaller cabinet might be better as it doesn't have that snap that some want. The box looks small, but keep in mind that t hat's a n 18" woofer!!
Certainly looks like a nice design as a starting point!!
Shows that the 18 and the 8" can live together.
The waveguide horn on the tweeter is a good idea-not quite as efficient, but we have plenty of efficiency in the tweeter. A better horn driver might be indicated.
I think Punk would like this a lot and its tough enough to be used as a PA when he starts a band! A problem is that the 18" woofers ewon't be around to buy when he wants 2 more. BUT they are the same as an Eminence model pretty much so that's good information.
I guess thats my concern about the dome tweeter- it will work in his house, and sound wonderful, but with the other drivers, this box will be used for a PA sooner or later!!
The "classic" approach would be the horn tweeter, the 8" upper mid, a 15" lower mid, then 18" bass drivers I believe.
Thats another possibility- The first cabinet has horn 8" and 15- which will hit hard. The next cabinet has an 18"
Too many choices!!
Mark,
I also saw those this morning and wondered Hmm...
Now you have pointed them out. Those guys at PE are smart and know where to come for good info, no?
There you go Punk. Speaker in a box.
I also saw those this morning and wondered Hmm...
Now you have pointed them out. Those guys at PE are smart and know where to come for good info, no?
There you go Punk. Speaker in a box.
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