In order for the rating one's liking of something to mean anything, doesn't it seem necessary for that liking to be defined?
As far as how to measure subjective responses is concerned, we see human perception type qualified ratings, as opposed to hard quantified ratings, utilized regularly in double-blind listening tests, don't we.
Last edited:
While it is true that soundstage can not be measured directly, I think that you can qualify a loudspeakers potential to produce it.
Off axis dispersion smoothness should be a good indicator of a loudspeakers ability to produce a good soundstage vs a poor one. One having the huge dip(s) in response off axis in or around xo frequencies will interupt the spacial illusion we call soundstage via reflected sound.
Off axis dispersion smoothness should be a good indicator of a loudspeakers ability to produce a good soundstage vs a poor one. One having the huge dip(s) in response off axis in or around xo frequencies will interupt the spacial illusion we call soundstage via reflected sound.
7. Good enough (for me). Understand the limits of ones room, time and wallet. No limits on learning new things keeps me going
All true.
But imagine that you have the same speakers, same room, same source, and so on...you only change the amp, and suddenly you feels soundstage improved. How do you measure that?
Or else, you get bombarded by ABX double blind people.
But imagine that you have the same speakers, same room, same source, and so on...you only change the amp, and suddenly you feels soundstage improved. How do you measure that?
Or else, you get bombarded by ABX double blind people.
I want to be certain that I’m clear on what you are referring to. You mean, to subjectively, roughly approximate via the senses, a perceptual illusion. Is that correct?
1st be aware your mind is playing tricks on you. Get friends with a sense for hearing music, people who also make diy, not people with a trained, perfect hearing, but people who know what a blind test means and let a few people hear the system with and without the new amp. lets say, 1 is drunk and falls asleep while listening, but the other 4 out of 5 people hear the same, "wow, as you played the piece the 2nd time, there was so much stage! what did you do? It sounded so much better!" So you can be sure something happened. Something not esotheric or wishful thinking by your brain, something real, something measureable has happend. And it won't be one reading, it will be several values in combination that cause the different perception of the blind tested people. As you know, "if it bleeds, we can kill it", if all hear it, it's not your head ******* you. So you can start the chase for the soundstage ... 😉 .
Perfect soundstage is the result of synchronicity between perfect signal source, perfect signal amplification (this includes all between the source and speakers) and perfect speakers (this includes room acoustics).
Any of these are compromised, soundstage is compromised.
Yes, just like puppet pointed out, you can measure speakers and predict something. But that is just one part of the chain.
Not the full measure of the system.
Yes, still clueless, thats exactly what i do. Exept the drunk who falls asleep. Do you volunteer?
Any of these are compromised, soundstage is compromised.
Yes, just like puppet pointed out, you can measure speakers and predict something. But that is just one part of the chain.
Not the full measure of the system.
Yes, still clueless, thats exactly what i do. Exept the drunk who falls asleep. Do you volunteer?
Hmm, what makes you guess I'm drinking Alcohol? I apologize, my english could be better. It depends alot on practice, and I hadn't much the last few years. Volunteer is ok, I volunteer for everything if it could be fun & it's alcohol-free. I quit drinking in 2009. The one drunk participant was just a little easy conversation, a joke. And I thought we germans are the ones with the lack on humor.
However, I'm not as skilled as you in audio-electronic related questions, but a blind test to verify my subjective perception is what I as a newbie would have done.
However, I'm not as skilled as you in audio-electronic related questions, but a blind test to verify my subjective perception is what I as a newbie would have done.
No worries, you are still invited, even if you do not drink. Still, how do you 'measure' soundstage.
I'm a newb, I have no idea what a pro would do. I would measure every measureable parameter and then try to bring those results that did change in compare to the measurement with the old amp in some kind of relation. For this I would wake up the still sleeping guy, who isn't just drunk, but also a studied professor of mathematics, show him the differences in the before/after measurements and tell him he'll be a god in diy audio heaven, because he can solve the riddle of the soundstage. Show him the measurements and tell him it's hidden in those numbers. That's what i would do.
Side story: i recently purchased standalone DAC, based on wolfson with some great low distortion opamps. Primary reason for purchase, to have more outputs from the same cd player to compare headphone amps.
When it came i measured all i could by RightMark audio. Great free software. DAC measured 0.003% distortion, while my loopback is ~0.002%, so DAC has almost no distortion.
I put it in main system with my lowely Jungson moom harbor hdcd player, switching between jungson and DAC. Guess what. DAC sounds terrible. What did i get myself into? It measures great, but sounds terrible.
Yes, no drunks around, no abx double blinds.
Switching between jungson and dac is like day and night.
I assumed something is wrong with dac. It sounded phasey, no soundstage. All mixed up, unpleasant.
After 3 hours of contineous play, it started improve. So i left it in the system. Three days later it sounded almost as jungson. Never identical but close.
One week later i remeasured dac by RightMark and got exactly the same results. It measured the same.
I am not saying RightMark software does not provide useful data, i used it often in the past, but there is perhaps something we do not measure.
The dac i bought was not used for years, so all the capacitors needed reforming. Or else.
Why did it measure the same on arrival, and week later, when sound was constantly improving?
Mainly soundstage.
When you hear sound comming from your speakers, you do not have soundstage. When sound seems to emanate from nowhere, howering in the air, you have soundstage.
Noone can measure that.
When it came i measured all i could by RightMark audio. Great free software. DAC measured 0.003% distortion, while my loopback is ~0.002%, so DAC has almost no distortion.
I put it in main system with my lowely Jungson moom harbor hdcd player, switching between jungson and DAC. Guess what. DAC sounds terrible. What did i get myself into? It measures great, but sounds terrible.
Yes, no drunks around, no abx double blinds.
Switching between jungson and dac is like day and night.
I assumed something is wrong with dac. It sounded phasey, no soundstage. All mixed up, unpleasant.
After 3 hours of contineous play, it started improve. So i left it in the system. Three days later it sounded almost as jungson. Never identical but close.
One week later i remeasured dac by RightMark and got exactly the same results. It measured the same.
I am not saying RightMark software does not provide useful data, i used it often in the past, but there is perhaps something we do not measure.
The dac i bought was not used for years, so all the capacitors needed reforming. Or else.
Why did it measure the same on arrival, and week later, when sound was constantly improving?
Mainly soundstage.
When you hear sound comming from your speakers, you do not have soundstage. When sound seems to emanate from nowhere, howering in the air, you have soundstage.
Noone can measure that.
My sound system is virtually perfect to my ear and the ear of those who visit.
The acoustics of this apartment are stellar.
I listen to music flat. If I needed EQ, the room or speakers aren't up to the job IMHO. The room is the most important aspect.
The acoustics of this apartment are stellar.
I listen to music flat. If I needed EQ, the room or speakers aren't up to the job IMHO. The room is the most important aspect.
Right, noone can measure that. But hey, that's nice to hear. This is practically a soundstage for nothing ( were there also chicks for free?) - It's 1:50AM here, and the soldering iron is still hot. I bet we could have interesting conversations if we could meet face to face. I understand what you are telling me, but it's not really satisfying to hear that, if my sound would stick to the speakers, I could do nothing but pray.
Of course we can measure soundstage of stereo system. You would need some post-it / thumbtac, traffic cone / tripod and measuring tape. You will also need a volunteer / assistant person to mark the locations per you direction while you listen.
Switched the amp but not bother to match levels? That explains why you would notice something different.
Our aural memory span is reliable for only a few seconds and even a slight movement in head position can alter the sound you hear due to the room mode especially in poor room acoustics.
Just curious, how did you keep your aural memory fresh for 3 hours and longer? Also, how did you manage to listen at the same spot each time, or did you?