What would you suggest for a real pre? I thought the arcam 950 I mentioned would be one of the better ones?
Last edited:
Av amps and processors
Hi Alex,
Arcam are very good and offer above average power amplifier quality, analog pre amp section and build quality. If you have one at the mo thats great, no need to worry.
Where they fall down is the limited DSP ability and basic Eq / room correction.
On a like for like $ for your buck Yamaha offer a better overall sound quality.
This advantage can be extended even further if you can afford to spend the extra $$ on three high quality external power amplifiers, then you have the best of both worlds.
Hope this helps.
Cheers
D.
Hi Alex,
Arcam are very good and offer above average power amplifier quality, analog pre amp section and build quality. If you have one at the mo thats great, no need to worry.
Where they fall down is the limited DSP ability and basic Eq / room correction.
On a like for like $ for your buck Yamaha offer a better overall sound quality.
This advantage can be extended even further if you can afford to spend the extra $$ on three high quality external power amplifiers, then you have the best of both worlds.
Hope this helps.
Cheers
D.
A bit late to join this but I was running 5 identical speakers in my 5.1 set up / home cinema with 1.8m screen.
Switched to stereo in the new flat due to necessity, I miss it for movie watching but am now using different speakers (2-way seas tweeters/sb acousitcs mid woofers), obviusly the sound is fantastic.
Switched to stereo in the new flat due to necessity, I miss it for movie watching but am now using different speakers (2-way seas tweeters/sb acousitcs mid woofers), obviusly the sound is fantastic.
The Arcam will just be a loan for the time being with the option to buy it off my brother.
I was also looking into yamaha and Marantz receivers with pre outs.
I'll definitely run 3 power amps to the fronts (if i have a center in the future). The advantage of the receivers are that i can use the internal amps to run the rear surrounds.
Once again, the front speakers are the next on the list and building our new house. Once the speakers are done, i will pick everyones brains about what to do for pre - power amp setups.
Thanks
Pretty much my point, for cinema you need 5.1 to do it right. But you don't miss much with stereo... ultimately anyone on the forum is going to be into audio and probabku think they have the best solution, no matter what it is. In an ideal world I'd have 3 systems... one pro, one domestic, one surround. But ultinately I could use any of them to watch a movie with fantastic results, so it's a bit of a moot point. Also, all three can potentially use the same amps/speakers anyway.
a bigger challenge for me is if you bother with a centre channel when using a line array...
Line Array centre
Hi nannoo,
I think one system is enough to do it all.
The best solution is a vertical line array behind an acoustically transparent screen.
If that's not possible, use the right driver in a Horizontal position. ie A full range wide wide dispersion (in both vertical and horizontal planes) driver with small centre to centre spacing but enough Sd to provide high dynamics and SPL's....
I have a solution that is slowly coming together.
CustomInstallAudio
Cheers
D.
Hi nannoo,
I think one system is enough to do it all.
The best solution is a vertical line array behind an acoustically transparent screen.
If that's not possible, use the right driver in a Horizontal position. ie A full range wide wide dispersion (in both vertical and horizontal planes) driver with small centre to centre spacing but enough Sd to provide high dynamics and SPL's....
I have a solution that is slowly coming together.
CustomInstallAudio
Cheers
D.
Member
Joined 2009
Paid Member
Yeah 100% agree. I will have all the cabling done as the house is built to support full surround including center.
And then once i have sorted out amps and bits out i will build up a center to try. I think it will be cheap enough to build something to match the Jenzens, just ned to learn how
Just thinking out loud,
Would a third top box from the Jenzen build work as a center? So just build another jenzen minus the bottom bass cabinet? Or do centers work completely differently than the front left/right speakers?
If this will work, i will just order the extra drivers when i order the jenzens as this will save me on shipping and will b a cheap enough option to try.
Would a third top box from the Jenzen build work as a center? So just build another jenzen minus the bottom bass cabinet? Or do centers work completely differently than the front left/right speakers?
If this will work, i will just order the extra drivers when i order the jenzens as this will save me on shipping and will b a cheap enough option to try.
I ran a center channel and 5.1 setup for movies until the center channel on my surround receiver died. That was 3-4 years ago and I haven't done anything to replace it. The right front channel is also sporadic, so when I want 4.1 or just 4.0, I run the front through my tube amp, and the rears come off the receiver. My main speakers go down to around 25hz and that is low enough for me, so I don't bother with the sub either.
The other day I turned on the surround and my wife complained that the vocals were indistinct, and I think she was right. We usually end up watching with just TV sound for ordinary TV shows.
I have a bunch of class D 3116 amps now, and I think I may use one to resurrect the center. I'm lazy though, I don't watch that much TV, and I don't really miss it, so maybe I'll never get a roundtuit.
The other day I turned on the surround and my wife complained that the vocals were indistinct, and I think she was right. We usually end up watching with just TV sound for ordinary TV shows.
I have a bunch of class D 3116 amps now, and I think I may use one to resurrect the center. I'm lazy though, I don't watch that much TV, and I don't really miss it, so maybe I'll never get a roundtuit.
Hi Derek.
My application here is for mainly rock cd/spoken word radio and no movies or tv.
I am planning a preamp box with balanced outs, and I am considering a centre channel out, for increased system total acoustic power output capability, if nothing else.
Yes, that does help, thanks.
You state 6/6/6 BMR system is good, centre to side ratio of 1/1.
The website shows 6/9/6 BMR system, 1.5/1.
You are advocating 6/18/6 BMR system, 3/1.
Your experience/advice of power ratios is the kind of info I am looking for.
So it looks good to go with one centre speaker, and even more fun with two centre speakers
.Dan.
some is good, more is better!
Hi Dan,
I understand better now, and yes, basically 1 is good 2 are better!
But as I have spent the last 5 years or so focusing on BMR's this may not hold true with cones and domes.....Really not sure on that one, sorry.
What I can be sure of though is the ratio of Sd (cone surface area).
Here more is almost always better....3:1 or 4:1 is good.
ie If I had 24 drivers in total and had the choice of how to spread them over the front 3 channels :
4 drivers on the left, 16 drivers in the middle and 4 on the right sounds better than 8 / 8 / 8.
I am fairly sure this will hold true with conventional drivers such as wide band cones, but I have not tested it.
Here is a nice project that might appeal...
Build your front three loudspeakers in very shallow cabinets (4 to 6 inches deep is fine) the width and height does not matter, simply adjust to match driver volume requirements.
Mount them on your wall, simply sit them on top of small but strong shelves, use sorbothane pads below and behind the cabinets to eliminate vibrations.
Get an 8 by 4 sheet of half inch MDF or birch ply wood (12mm or 18mm) CNC'd into a large picture frame shape. Hand apply a few coats of matt black spray paint.
Stretch over and staple some acoustically transparent screen material, this is not too expensive nowadays.
Now cut 4 strips (6 inches wide) of black felt and glue it round the screen edges to form a nice black border.
Hang your screen in front of your 3 front loudspeakers so that it covers them
all.
You can use 3 or 4 strong "Art Gallery" shelf brackets along the top of the wall and cool stainless steel cable (2mm) to suspend your screen.....
As an option you can finish the edges with MDF sides covered in more black felt, this stops the speakers being visible from the sides.
Total cost £400 to £500 depending on screen size. RRP to buy new £5,000 to £7,000....!
You can still have a small / medium TV screen below the main screen if you want.
Hi Dan,
I understand better now, and yes, basically 1 is good 2 are better!
But as I have spent the last 5 years or so focusing on BMR's this may not hold true with cones and domes.....Really not sure on that one, sorry.
What I can be sure of though is the ratio of Sd (cone surface area).
Here more is almost always better....3:1 or 4:1 is good.
ie If I had 24 drivers in total and had the choice of how to spread them over the front 3 channels :
4 drivers on the left, 16 drivers in the middle and 4 on the right sounds better than 8 / 8 / 8.
I am fairly sure this will hold true with conventional drivers such as wide band cones, but I have not tested it.
Here is a nice project that might appeal...
Build your front three loudspeakers in very shallow cabinets (4 to 6 inches deep is fine) the width and height does not matter, simply adjust to match driver volume requirements.
Mount them on your wall, simply sit them on top of small but strong shelves, use sorbothane pads below and behind the cabinets to eliminate vibrations.
Get an 8 by 4 sheet of half inch MDF or birch ply wood (12mm or 18mm) CNC'd into a large picture frame shape. Hand apply a few coats of matt black spray paint.
Stretch over and staple some acoustically transparent screen material, this is not too expensive nowadays.
Now cut 4 strips (6 inches wide) of black felt and glue it round the screen edges to form a nice black border.
Hang your screen in front of your 3 front loudspeakers so that it covers them
all.
You can use 3 or 4 strong "Art Gallery" shelf brackets along the top of the wall and cool stainless steel cable (2mm) to suspend your screen.....
As an option you can finish the edges with MDF sides covered in more black felt, this stops the speakers being visible from the sides.
Total cost £400 to £500 depending on screen size. RRP to buy new £5,000 to £7,000....!
You can still have a small / medium TV screen below the main screen if you want.
I don't have a center speaker- my left and right are under 2m apart and I listen/watch at just over 2m. If my room allowed for greater separation between the left and right, I might feel the need for a center, but it does not. The thing about HT particularly and stereo as well is that one has to live where the stuff is installed, and compromises result. Those with dedicated listening/watching rooms are able to do a set-up with fewer compromises.
I run a center, however it's identical to my L/R speakers, and it sits behind my screen, as I've got a SeymourAV sonically transparent screen. It's only on when the source material calls for it, and it does add something to the experience, having it directly behind the head of people who are speaking on screen.
A virtual center might be better, however that might only work properly for cinema soundtracks, I've got a few multichannel and DTS-HD audio only recordings that I'm sure would be a little goofy sounding without it.
A virtual center might be better, however that might only work properly for cinema soundtracks, I've got a few multichannel and DTS-HD audio only recordings that I'm sure would be a little goofy sounding without it.
I've tried various options over the years from 5.1, 6.1, 6.2 and now I use 4.1.
I find 4.1 the best for my use as I do view on axis. Panning and tonal quality does sound better in final set up. The previous 5.1 and 6.1 used the same drivers except for the tweeters in the rears and the centre was a vertical TM.
The issue I had with the centre speaker was location. I had 2 different set ups on the centre speaker. The first was placed under the viewing screen but directed upwards towards the viewer so the sound was perceived to be the same height as the L&R fronts. The second had 2 centre speakers, 1 each side of the screen and at the same driver height as the L&R fronts. I thought this was better than the first but in the end, I preferred the phantom centre.
For decades I ran separate stereo and HT systems in the same location but finally I removed the stereo system (including my faithful AKSA), hooked up my mains as bi-amped L&R fronts and left the L&R surrounds as is. So I still use 6 amps in the receiver and 1 does nothing. I did try just using 2.0 (stereo amp and then the HT amp in 2 channel) for HT and even though my mains have an F3=33Hz, not having the LFE channel really showed in drive, presence and effect even when it's mixed into the mains by a HT receiver. I prefer to have a sub than a centre.
In the end I haven't sacrificed too much in stereo listing... lost in some areas but gained in others.
But.... if you view off axis, group viewings or have problems hearing dialogue, then a centre is a must. Just have to work out the best location for your particular application.
I find 4.1 the best for my use as I do view on axis. Panning and tonal quality does sound better in final set up. The previous 5.1 and 6.1 used the same drivers except for the tweeters in the rears and the centre was a vertical TM.
The issue I had with the centre speaker was location. I had 2 different set ups on the centre speaker. The first was placed under the viewing screen but directed upwards towards the viewer so the sound was perceived to be the same height as the L&R fronts. The second had 2 centre speakers, 1 each side of the screen and at the same driver height as the L&R fronts. I thought this was better than the first but in the end, I preferred the phantom centre.
For decades I ran separate stereo and HT systems in the same location but finally I removed the stereo system (including my faithful AKSA), hooked up my mains as bi-amped L&R fronts and left the L&R surrounds as is. So I still use 6 amps in the receiver and 1 does nothing. I did try just using 2.0 (stereo amp and then the HT amp in 2 channel) for HT and even though my mains have an F3=33Hz, not having the LFE channel really showed in drive, presence and effect even when it's mixed into the mains by a HT receiver. I prefer to have a sub than a centre.
In the end I haven't sacrificed too much in stereo listing... lost in some areas but gained in others.
But.... if you view off axis, group viewings or have problems hearing dialogue, then a centre is a must. Just have to work out the best location for your particular application.
I have and I use my center. In my HT room/cave all 3 front speakers are identical SEAS T18 coaxials and they integrate well. Rear speakers are different 2-ways and they are placed "sub-optimally" and I can't help it. I have 2 subs. Onkyo AV-receiver, 5.2 system.
When I play just music I use same L/R speakers but switch cables to a stereo amp - I made a switchboard for that.
I have a 22" LCD and a 100" screen. When I watch the monitor which is not in center,I locate the speech there - visual image overrides aural localization of sound!
The other set in the living room has also a center speaker but it is different from the mains, but it works reasonably well, very well for speech. I listen to music mostly in 2.0 stereo there too. Yamaha AV-receiver, 5.0 system.
When I play just music I use same L/R speakers but switch cables to a stereo amp - I made a switchboard for that.
I have a 22" LCD and a 100" screen. When I watch the monitor which is not in center,I locate the speech there - visual image overrides aural localization of sound!
The other set in the living room has also a center speaker but it is different from the mains, but it works reasonably well, very well for speech. I listen to music mostly in 2.0 stereo there too. Yamaha AV-receiver, 5.0 system.
Coax good for home cinema
Hi Juhazi,
I like pro coax drivers for home cinema, the make a lot of sense.
Good image location compared to separate cones and domes and when using THX crossover at 80Hz you dont need much cabinet volume so you can make shallow on wall cabinets.
Do you prefer Yamaha or Onkyo?
A couple of years ago Onkyo introduced some AV receivers with a very nice DSP with flexible active crossover plus a sub out. This meant you could run proper 3 way active crossovers....Very good value product. Sadly they have discontinued that feature.
Now I prefer Yamaha for overal value and sound quality.
Cheers
Derek.
Hi Juhazi,
I like pro coax drivers for home cinema, the make a lot of sense.
Good image location compared to separate cones and domes and when using THX crossover at 80Hz you dont need much cabinet volume so you can make shallow on wall cabinets.
Do you prefer Yamaha or Onkyo?
A couple of years ago Onkyo introduced some AV receivers with a very nice DSP with flexible active crossover plus a sub out. This meant you could run proper 3 way active crossovers....Very good value product. Sadly they have discontinued that feature.
Now I prefer Yamaha for overal value and sound quality.
Cheers
Derek.
Living room (most used): I have 5.1 speakers as L/R + SL/SC/SR + sub. The front L/R flank the modest 46" TV, so stereo separation is not great, but it works well for TV/movies. The receiver is set up for 6.1 channels with center turned off; it mixes the center signal into the L+R in the analog domain, after the DACs.
Theatre: I have an acoustically transparent screen with three identical front main speakers behind the screen (and ~3 ft from back wall, not on the wall!). The remaining speakers are all 'matched' to those front ones; same drivers, just fewer of them. Depending on source material, the receiver runs anything from 2.0 to 7.1 or 9.1 channels (DTS NEO:X front height are the 8th, 9th channels) but I use 11.2 speakers: 2 subs and an extra set of side surround speakers for the second row of seats.
Theatre: I have an acoustically transparent screen with three identical front main speakers behind the screen (and ~3 ft from back wall, not on the wall!). The remaining speakers are all 'matched' to those front ones; same drivers, just fewer of them. Depending on source material, the receiver runs anything from 2.0 to 7.1 or 9.1 channels (DTS NEO:X front height are the 8th, 9th channels) but I use 11.2 speakers: 2 subs and an extra set of side surround speakers for the second row of seats.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.