Yep, what krivium says.
People chase numbers all the time, without really knowing why. There are waaaay more important things to worry about than the 20-40Hz octave.
My system was a highly modified Altec VOTT A5. Same bass bins as A7, but with multicell horns. Stock they only play down to about 60Hz, but with modified ports I was able to get to about 33Hz in my room. That was plenty for me. As they were fairly efficient, it didn't take much power to hit 110dB peaks at the listening position. I've owned open baffle speakers that could play lower, but not as clean and loud. I prefer the clean and loud.
Bottom line, don't worry to much about the bottom octave. As krivum says, it's not night and day.
People chase numbers all the time, without really knowing why. There are waaaay more important things to worry about than the 20-40Hz octave.
My system was a highly modified Altec VOTT A5. Same bass bins as A7, but with multicell horns. Stock they only play down to about 60Hz, but with modified ports I was able to get to about 33Hz in my room. That was plenty for me. As they were fairly efficient, it didn't take much power to hit 110dB peaks at the listening position. I've owned open baffle speakers that could play lower, but not as clean and loud. I prefer the clean and loud.
Bottom line, don't worry to much about the bottom octave. As krivum says, it's not night and day.
+1 for 2x15" tuned to 30Hz. A pair of 15"s per side will be more than enough.
For HF, if you never, ever want to move then, get a pair of EV DH1a compression drivers.
Chris
For HF, if you never, ever want to move then, get a pair of EV DH1a compression drivers.
Chris
Thanks again for your replies. You really gave me something to think about.
The thing is that quite a few of my favorite music does have significant bass, even what I think are called subsonics.
I went back and took a closer look at some of my favorite music. Enya's album 'Watermark' has significant subsonics on both the title track and 'Longships', actually extending below 20 Hz, as well as the song 'Orinoco Flow' which if you listen for the deep bass in the drum break in the middle of the song is very impactful, going into the mid-20s. I guarantee you if you listen to 'Longships' on a system with good bass extension, you will never hear it again the same way. Breathtaking!
There’s a Norah Jones track (The Nearness of You) that ends with two single notes on a piano, whose frequencies are 32.7 Hz and 27.5 Hz respectively.
The first cut from percussionist Evelyn Glennie's solo album 'The Shadow Behind the Iron Sun' has a lot of subsonics. The song just isn't the same without it, though it will give an ordinary subwoofer quite a work out. I do admit that one isn't most people's cup of tea. 🙄
On Enigma's song 'Return to Innocence', the drum track, which is actually a sampled and time altered drum track from Led Zeppelin's 'When the Levee breaks' drops after the intro, it is punctuated by a falling subsonic percussive note that drops nearly to 20 Hz, and on a beat each measure for some measures thereafter. I've heard far too many systems where if you didn't know those bass beats were there, you would simply never know they were there, because they just disappear.
There are also many examples in modern music, especially Dub-step and some EDM as has been remarked on, but pop music as well occasionally likes to expand and punctuate their music with heavy bass and/or subsonics.
The only reason I know about some of the older songs is because I had an old Kenwood KR9600 and the matching Kabuki speakers which, for all their flaws, could actually play that low, even if rolled off. I have listened on countless systems where I could not even hear those sounds, and honestly it really takes a lot away from the music, IMO. Having searched out a system that could play that low, and listening to that music, it just blows me a way, every time.
Now I will freely admit you won't miss what you can't hear in the first place, but I already knew it was there, so it naturally took a lot away from the music for me to not be able to hear it. And again, It doesn't have to be at concert levels for me to enjoy it, but I DO need to hear it to enjoy it - don't you think? A lot of people seem to think the only reason to have a subwoofer is to 'rock the house' - but I look at it as just a natural extension of the rest of the sound. Whether it 'rocks the house' can then become just an expression of the artist, as they see fit - but again, if your system is inadequate, you'll simply never hear it.
And this is in fact why I have a subwoofer and sub amp in the first place. There are many great vintage amps and speakers out there, but let's be honest, good bass was not always their forte. Thiele/Small didn't even become widely known until the 70's, finally giving a solid basis of how to produce good bass, beyond trial and error.
Now you may already know all that, and I don't mean to lecture anybody - but you asked why I wanted 20 Hz in the first place, and that is why.
The thing is that quite a few of my favorite music does have significant bass, even what I think are called subsonics.
I went back and took a closer look at some of my favorite music. Enya's album 'Watermark' has significant subsonics on both the title track and 'Longships', actually extending below 20 Hz, as well as the song 'Orinoco Flow' which if you listen for the deep bass in the drum break in the middle of the song is very impactful, going into the mid-20s. I guarantee you if you listen to 'Longships' on a system with good bass extension, you will never hear it again the same way. Breathtaking!
There’s a Norah Jones track (The Nearness of You) that ends with two single notes on a piano, whose frequencies are 32.7 Hz and 27.5 Hz respectively.
The first cut from percussionist Evelyn Glennie's solo album 'The Shadow Behind the Iron Sun' has a lot of subsonics. The song just isn't the same without it, though it will give an ordinary subwoofer quite a work out. I do admit that one isn't most people's cup of tea. 🙄
On Enigma's song 'Return to Innocence', the drum track, which is actually a sampled and time altered drum track from Led Zeppelin's 'When the Levee breaks' drops after the intro, it is punctuated by a falling subsonic percussive note that drops nearly to 20 Hz, and on a beat each measure for some measures thereafter. I've heard far too many systems where if you didn't know those bass beats were there, you would simply never know they were there, because they just disappear.
There are also many examples in modern music, especially Dub-step and some EDM as has been remarked on, but pop music as well occasionally likes to expand and punctuate their music with heavy bass and/or subsonics.
The only reason I know about some of the older songs is because I had an old Kenwood KR9600 and the matching Kabuki speakers which, for all their flaws, could actually play that low, even if rolled off. I have listened on countless systems where I could not even hear those sounds, and honestly it really takes a lot away from the music, IMO. Having searched out a system that could play that low, and listening to that music, it just blows me a way, every time.
Now I will freely admit you won't miss what you can't hear in the first place, but I already knew it was there, so it naturally took a lot away from the music for me to not be able to hear it. And again, It doesn't have to be at concert levels for me to enjoy it, but I DO need to hear it to enjoy it - don't you think? A lot of people seem to think the only reason to have a subwoofer is to 'rock the house' - but I look at it as just a natural extension of the rest of the sound. Whether it 'rocks the house' can then become just an expression of the artist, as they see fit - but again, if your system is inadequate, you'll simply never hear it.
And this is in fact why I have a subwoofer and sub amp in the first place. There are many great vintage amps and speakers out there, but let's be honest, good bass was not always their forte. Thiele/Small didn't even become widely known until the 70's, finally giving a solid basis of how to produce good bass, beyond trial and error.
Now you may already know all that, and I don't mean to lecture anybody - but you asked why I wanted 20 Hz in the first place, and that is why.
Chris - I have looked at the DH1, and it is an impressive driver, but it too won't quite fit my current project, given the necessary depth of the horn. I certainly do plan on using it in a future project though. 🙂
Well, if your mind is made up that the bottom octave is that important, and you're sure that what you are hearing is really the fundamental, and not the harmonics, then you should build a system that is flat to 20Hz. Why wouldn't you?
I have very rarely heard a system that could truely play flat down to 20Hz. I've heard plenty that claimed to. 😉 Those I have heard that could do it were very large and expensive. Nice if you can do it, but it's not where I choose to spend my time, effort or money. If I were building a club system for Dub Step, then yeah, it would be worth it.
I have very rarely heard a system that could truely play flat down to 20Hz. I've heard plenty that claimed to. 😉 Those I have heard that could do it were very large and expensive. Nice if you can do it, but it's not where I choose to spend my time, effort or money. If I were building a club system for Dub Step, then yeah, it would be worth it.
"I have very rarely heard a system that could truely play flat down to 20Hz. I've heard plenty that claimed to."
Absolutely. Seems one almost always hears the claim - and I agree it's almost always BS. This design challenge has shown me why too.
I doubt if I will make it all the way to 20 Hz, given the limitations of this project - but I do intend to get as close as I reasonably can.
Thanks again for your input. You did make me think - and I appreciate that!
Absolutely. Seems one almost always hears the claim - and I agree it's almost always BS. This design challenge has shown me why too.
I doubt if I will make it all the way to 20 Hz, given the limitations of this project - but I do intend to get as close as I reasonably can.
Thanks again for your input. You did make me think - and I appreciate that!
I think with your current choice of drivers you're on the right path. It can be difficult to go really low. That usually means power, size or both. Most normal speakers just aren't efficient at wavelengths over 30 feet.
2x15" tuned to 20Hz with some EQ will still make quite a noise. You'll need a chunky compression driver to match, though.
Quick sim I ran with a Beyma 15P1200Nd shows 150L tuned to 20Hz will need some EQ, but four of those with around 100w each will do 120dB at 20Hz, 118dB at 24Hz, and then 120dB+ over 40Hz. That's groundplane.
Cross at 500Hz to something horn-loaded and very efficient, and you've got a killer system.
Chris
Quick sim I ran with a Beyma 15P1200Nd shows 150L tuned to 20Hz will need some EQ, but four of those with around 100w each will do 120dB at 20Hz, 118dB at 24Hz, and then 120dB+ over 40Hz. That's groundplane.
Cross at 500Hz to something horn-loaded and very efficient, and you've got a killer system.
Chris
Thanks for your taking the trouble Chris, however as I said I already have a single 200 watt amp that I want to use, I highly favor the sound of a sealed box, and this particular project just won't have the depth for a 500 hz horn.
I am keeping these suggestions in mind for a future project, so thanks anyway! 🙂
I am keeping these suggestions in mind for a future project, so thanks anyway! 🙂
The cabinet I have in mind is 18" deep maximum.
But in any case I already have all the drivers picked out.
Looks like I will go with the Dayton RSS460HO-4 for the subwoofer. Tweaking the sim, this gives me 113db peak @ 200 watts at f3 (with generous EQ) at 25 Hz.
The 200 watt amplifier is subwoofer dedicated. The remaining drivers will be run from an old 30 watt tube amp I have.
Crossing at 140 Hz, midbass will be dual Eminence Delta Pro-8B drivers, which will give me 113 db peak @ 30 watts
Crossing at 500 Hz will be a B&C 6PEV13, which will also give 113 db peak @ 30 watts.
Finally, crossing around 2khz will be a B&C DE250-8 compression driver with a suitable horn.
That should give me good extension and plenty of headroom.
But in any case I already have all the drivers picked out.
Looks like I will go with the Dayton RSS460HO-4 for the subwoofer. Tweaking the sim, this gives me 113db peak @ 200 watts at f3 (with generous EQ) at 25 Hz.
The 200 watt amplifier is subwoofer dedicated. The remaining drivers will be run from an old 30 watt tube amp I have.
Crossing at 140 Hz, midbass will be dual Eminence Delta Pro-8B drivers, which will give me 113 db peak @ 30 watts
Crossing at 500 Hz will be a B&C 6PEV13, which will also give 113 db peak @ 30 watts.
Finally, crossing around 2khz will be a B&C DE250-8 compression driver with a suitable horn.
That should give me good extension and plenty of headroom.
The 800 square foot room is 4 times larger than my lounge. Right now I'm putting 600w into a pair of labhorns, 300w into a pair of 15"jbls and 150w into a pair of 2"cd's on jbl horns. I could happily drop the jbl horns down to 30w amps as they are so sensitive. I would worry about dropping the 15's down to 30w.
Personally I think your plan is underpowered in the midbass region and possibly the pair of 8's will not push enough air to play dubstep at party levels in a room that size. I'd also consider porting the 18" sub to gain some efficiency @ 20Hz.. (I have run 3x adire tempest 15's sealed in my room and if I had them again I would port them)
Edit: As an aside I have never heard a subwoofer play well up into the midbass range - They all seem best crossed 80Hz or lower..
Cheers,
Rob.
Personally I think your plan is underpowered in the midbass region and possibly the pair of 8's will not push enough air to play dubstep at party levels in a room that size. I'd also consider porting the 18" sub to gain some efficiency @ 20Hz.. (I have run 3x adire tempest 15's sealed in my room and if I had them again I would port them)
Edit: As an aside I have never heard a subwoofer play well up into the midbass range - They all seem best crossed 80Hz or lower..
Cheers,
Rob.
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75-80Hz is a good sub limit. There will be tracks where the sub won't even play, and other were it will be essential. Musically, I suppose, it's a good crossover point.
I wonder ? In fact in most serious system with subs i've heard, it was almost always cut lower, around 60hz (for the one playing in a room, freespace and soundsystem fc was often different...).
I've always taken it for granted and when i asked about this fc choice, most of the time the answer was this is room related. But, for some times now i ask myself if this is not more related to the frequency range of fundamental of most of the lower acoustic intruments?
I don't know... One thing i'm sure is that i didn't liked most of the 2.1 system (satellites) with fc right at 80hz. Most sound weird to me.
About 20hz, if you heard it this was not 20hz for me! At this frequency (and lower) you feel it.
It make your stomach go down into your belly at high spl. And it blur your vision. This is one of the difference that i experienced with the soundsystem i talked about earlier.
And it was playing outside, in a room that would have been a nightmare (everything rumbling like hell and you thinking this is the 'big one' and having nausea and feeling your brain is goin to melt...maybe fun at first, not long term).
And in D&B with some producers ( try to listen to Dylan "Dominion","Bass Kick" or "Junglism" to have an idea of what i'm talking about) this last full length of track, not every now and then... 😉
Yes 113db for all bands. It's great but did you plan some BSC? You probably will be limited to much less spl in the end. And i agree with Robwell, you'll probably need to go with 2* 10" instead of 2*8" for midbass or it may sound to 'thin'.
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Well you can hear it rattle things in the room, that's for sure! I remember being at a demo for some Danely subs. They played low, clean and LOUD! It was funny to hear these super clean low notes that didn't bother the sub at all, but things around the room would rattle and buzz like crazy when the tones hit their resonant frequency.
Almost all dubstep does not go below 30Hz, as vinyl does not go lower. And many dj's and underground clubs here used systems that were original developped for dub, where the fs is arround 35Hz (4 or more scoops in a row coupling).
For smaller subwoofer that go that low, an TH is still the best solution. And you can do it with smaller drivers. The Reed Exodus Anarchy was a tapped horn that goes to 25Hz in a rather small format that could fit your purpose if you build 2 of them. A tapped horn is the smallest format for very low subwoofers, other designs end up being bigger for the same.
For smaller subwoofer that go that low, an TH is still the best solution. And you can do it with smaller drivers. The Reed Exodus Anarchy was a tapped horn that goes to 25Hz in a rather small format that could fit your purpose if you build 2 of them. A tapped horn is the smallest format for very low subwoofers, other designs end up being bigger for the same.
The RSS460HO-4 is on order. Sounds like it will have plenty of bass for what I'm doing.
Your comments about the mid-bass do worry me. At the very least, I figure I should leave some flexibility so I can try some different things and tweak for the best performance.
After looking around, I'm now looking at two Eminence Delta 10Bs:
https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/290-413--eminence-delta-10b-specifications.pdf
Your comments about the mid-bass do worry me. At the very least, I figure I should leave some flexibility so I can try some different things and tweak for the best performance.
After looking around, I'm now looking at two Eminence Delta 10Bs:
https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/290-413--eminence-delta-10b-specifications.pdf
I received the sub. What a monster. This is going to be fun!
After running many more sims, I wound up with two Delta-12Bs in parallel:
http://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/290-415--eminence-delta-12b-specifications.pdf
This actually puts the lower crossover down to 80 Hz.
I hadn't actually given BSC much thought. The cab I have in mind has a stepped baffle, but the primary baffle is 24" which puts it around 500Hz. The two 12Bs will be crossed at 500 Hz and have plenty of headroom for that, but the subwoofer unfortunately runs out of gas. That's the last straw - I'm going to have to give up on the sub amp I have and go plate amp. That's okay, the other amp was the primary one all along. A 500 watt plate amp will do nicely.
It's fortunate the sub runs just fine with 5 cu. ft.. I think with stuffing it will be even better, making the full 0.5 Qtc. It's fortunate because the two midbass speakers also take 5 cu. ft., and that's at .707 Qtc.
It should be fine with the single high efficiency mid speaker, but I'm going to run some tests to be sure. It is shaping up to be quite a project - perhaps I'll start a thread detailing the rest of the design and construction. 🙂
After running many more sims, I wound up with two Delta-12Bs in parallel:
http://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/290-415--eminence-delta-12b-specifications.pdf
This actually puts the lower crossover down to 80 Hz.
I hadn't actually given BSC much thought. The cab I have in mind has a stepped baffle, but the primary baffle is 24" which puts it around 500Hz. The two 12Bs will be crossed at 500 Hz and have plenty of headroom for that, but the subwoofer unfortunately runs out of gas. That's the last straw - I'm going to have to give up on the sub amp I have and go plate amp. That's okay, the other amp was the primary one all along. A 500 watt plate amp will do nicely.
It's fortunate the sub runs just fine with 5 cu. ft.. I think with stuffing it will be even better, making the full 0.5 Qtc. It's fortunate because the two midbass speakers also take 5 cu. ft., and that's at .707 Qtc.
It should be fine with the single high efficiency mid speaker, but I'm going to run some tests to be sure. It is shaping up to be quite a project - perhaps I'll start a thread detailing the rest of the design and construction. 🙂
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