I am considering building a mono system and have some questions about design goals.
It will be a bi-amped system with a 200 watt subwoofer amp and about 30 watts for everything above about 150 Hz. With that power the best I can do is about 110 db (within driver x-max) down to about 21 Hz (-3db).
I've looked online and there is a lot of conflicting information. I'm looking to fill a fairly large space, but not overly large. I don't need to play overly loud either, but definitely would like good headroom and the capacity to play the occasional 'party track'. I am interested in opinions on what an 'adequate' system would require. Thanks in advance for your input. 🙂
It will be a bi-amped system with a 200 watt subwoofer amp and about 30 watts for everything above about 150 Hz. With that power the best I can do is about 110 db (within driver x-max) down to about 21 Hz (-3db).
I've looked online and there is a lot of conflicting information. I'm looking to fill a fairly large space, but not overly large. I don't need to play overly loud either, but definitely would like good headroom and the capacity to play the occasional 'party track'. I am interested in opinions on what an 'adequate' system would require. Thanks in advance for your input. 🙂
Well... in pro field we define a zone/distance to cover, a dbspl target and scale the system from that information (including headroom, audience (the more people the more absorbtion) and eventually need for low end capability depending on style of music played, you won't have the same needs for EDM or classical...).
For room i try to get information about critical distance too, and take measurement in the reverberant field where level is near constant.
I try to target between 100db/105dbspl with C curve on spl meter for party (in the reverberant field in room, higher up in free space) and usually 6 to 10db headroom depending on style of music (sometimes higher for very long events with music played non stop for several days...).
For room i try to get information about critical distance too, and take measurement in the reverberant field where level is near constant.
I try to target between 100db/105dbspl with C curve on spl meter for party (in the reverberant field in room, higher up in free space) and usually 6 to 10db headroom depending on style of music (sometimes higher for very long events with music played non stop for several days...).
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I used to run a mobile disco.
For many years I got away with a Maplin 225WRMS amplifier.
I used 4 Fane 50WRMS speakers, two speakers in each cabinet.
It was remarkably loud and was good for small to medium sized venues.
For many years I got away with a Maplin 225WRMS amplifier.
I used 4 Fane 50WRMS speakers, two speakers in each cabinet.
It was remarkably loud and was good for small to medium sized venues.
I'd say you're likely to need more power than you have, but can't say for sure. Some more information is needed, then:
How big is the space?
How loud do you actually want to go?
Which speakers are you using?
For the mid-high range to keep up with the sub in peak level, it'll need to be 97dB@1w, and that's a genuine 97dB@1w, not 100dB+ at some breakup peaks and low-90s elsewhere.
Here's what I usually do for a mono party system:
21" sub in a 100L sealed box (ported or whatever would be better, but this is pretty small. Roughly equal to a good 15" driver in a ported box) with a 1KW amp.
Yamaha DBR10 for 120Hz up. That's bi-amped itself, 300w to the 10" driver, 50w to the tweeter.
That lot is what I'd call a good start for a party system, but more would be better.
When someone says "party", they might mean something like Nigel has mentioned, which would probably be fine for most small venues, all the way up to this one time that a sound crew came by one of my usual venues. 6x 21" subwoofers, all horn-loaded, for bass. Then a pile of 15" horn-loaded kicks, and 12" + 1" horn-loaded tops. I can't remember how much power they had, but it was a pair of 240v 16A power supplies. This was in a room that literally barely fit it all in. They had to put the subs at the back of the room. Didn't sound great to be honest, but they dropped light fittings and wireless routers off the walls during sound check. That sort of power is a lot of fun.
So, what's it to be?
Chris
How big is the space?
How loud do you actually want to go?
Which speakers are you using?
For the mid-high range to keep up with the sub in peak level, it'll need to be 97dB@1w, and that's a genuine 97dB@1w, not 100dB+ at some breakup peaks and low-90s elsewhere.
Here's what I usually do for a mono party system:
21" sub in a 100L sealed box (ported or whatever would be better, but this is pretty small. Roughly equal to a good 15" driver in a ported box) with a 1KW amp.
Yamaha DBR10 for 120Hz up. That's bi-amped itself, 300w to the 10" driver, 50w to the tweeter.
That lot is what I'd call a good start for a party system, but more would be better.
When someone says "party", they might mean something like Nigel has mentioned, which would probably be fine for most small venues, all the way up to this one time that a sound crew came by one of my usual venues. 6x 21" subwoofers, all horn-loaded, for bass. Then a pile of 15" horn-loaded kicks, and 12" + 1" horn-loaded tops. I can't remember how much power they had, but it was a pair of 240v 16A power supplies. This was in a room that literally barely fit it all in. They had to put the subs at the back of the room. Didn't sound great to be honest, but they dropped light fittings and wireless routers off the walls during sound check. That sort of power is a lot of fun.
So, what's it to be?
Chris
Thank you for your replies.
If I didn't previously mention it, I already have the amps. With that, I'm obviously not looking for a killer bass-zilla system or the ultimate overdrive. I would however like to choose some fairly quality and efficient speakers to get the most good sound out of it I can.
For listening space I am looking at a room about 800 sq. feet or so.
Because of the low top amp power, I have had some difficulty balancing efficiency with bass extension in the bass simulations (WinISD). I'm currently leaning towards a Dayton RSS460HO-4 in a 200 liter sealed box with generous EQ. Given the bass limitations, the top end is not as difficult. My real question is your impressions of that type of performance.
Thank you all again for sharing your experience and suggestions. 🙂
If I didn't previously mention it, I already have the amps. With that, I'm obviously not looking for a killer bass-zilla system or the ultimate overdrive. I would however like to choose some fairly quality and efficient speakers to get the most good sound out of it I can.
For listening space I am looking at a room about 800 sq. feet or so.
Because of the low top amp power, I have had some difficulty balancing efficiency with bass extension in the bass simulations (WinISD). I'm currently leaning towards a Dayton RSS460HO-4 in a 200 liter sealed box with generous EQ. Given the bass limitations, the top end is not as difficult. My real question is your impressions of that type of performance.
Thank you all again for sharing your experience and suggestions. 🙂
Dayton RSS460HO-4 spec link:
http://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/295-472-dayton-audio-rss460ho-4-specifications.pdf
http://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/295-472-dayton-audio-rss460ho-4-specifications.pdf
Given you your room and you already have the amp maybe a TH is the way to go. How low fc would you like to go?
With 200w and 40hz/150hz band you should have relatively loud out capability using a PA driver.
With 200w and 40hz/150hz band you should have relatively loud out capability using a PA driver.
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Pardon my ignorance, but what is a 'TH'?
I want to get as close to 20 Hz as I can, but it's flexible.
I want to get as close to 20 Hz as I can, but it's flexible.
A Tapped Horn, popularized by Tom Danley.
Take a look at Subwoofer subforum.
If you can afford the bulkyness you can go as low as 20hz (there is some project of this kind in the sub forum, with 18" drivers: thread named th118 or something like that...) but you 'll have to compromise on high end fc (typically expect around 1.5 octave bandwidth). Usually this kind of sub sound quite good and have lot of output capability.
edit: this thread http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/210339-tapped-horn-th-121-build-22.html
Take a look at Subwoofer subforum.
If you can afford the bulkyness you can go as low as 20hz (there is some project of this kind in the sub forum, with 18" drivers: thread named th118 or something like that...) but you 'll have to compromise on high end fc (typically expect around 1.5 octave bandwidth). Usually this kind of sub sound quite good and have lot of output capability.
edit: this thread http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/210339-tapped-horn-th-121-build-22.html
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Ah, yes. While that looks wonderful for another project, I really don't have that much room for this project. Thank you anyway for the link - very interesting.
To clarify, for convenience I am planning to build basically a powered speaker, with amps and all speakers integrated into one cabinet. This requires a somewhat traditional approach, in practical terms.
LafeEric,
May I make a suggestion, not for a subwoofer but rather for bass and the upper midrange section of the spectrum. The FaitalPro 15PR400, it is an exceptional driver worth considering.
https://www.parts-express.com/faitalpro-15fh500-15-neodymium-professional-woofer-8-ohm--294-1272
C.M
May I make a suggestion, not for a subwoofer but rather for bass and the upper midrange section of the spectrum. The FaitalPro 15PR400, it is an exceptional driver worth considering.
https://www.parts-express.com/faitalpro-15fh500-15-neodymium-professional-woofer-8-ohm--294-1272
C.M
I've built a few of those using Class-D amps running off 24V DC. Approximately 32 WPC into 8 ohms. Plenty loud, and my drivers aren't particularly efficient. Around 84dB/W
Many console stereos I own are about 32 WPC but use more efficient drivers.
Most domestic listening is done in the low 80s SPL. More if you're drinking. 🙂
Many console stereos I own are about 32 WPC but use more efficient drivers.
Most domestic listening is done in the low 80s SPL. More if you're drinking. 🙂
I'm starting to build a pair of speakers using twin 15 JBL drivers in a 1.5 way setup crossing to a 2" exit CD on a horn at 800hz. Would work well with your amps.
Thanks again for your replies.
Tweet,
I have run many simulations with different speakers. I started with what I thought were fairly simple design goals; to use an existing 200 watt amplifier for bass, to allow a workable sealed volume to get as close to 20 Hz as I could, to get as much good sound as I could with the power. I simulated your suggested woofer, and though it has plenty of sensitivity, it unfortunately runs out of gas with X-max when I try to get close to 20 Hz. If I decrease Vb for stiffer compliance then the power shoots up. Unfortunately, that woofer is unsuitable for my speaker.
RobWells,
Thank you for the suggestion, but I would run into pretty much the same problems as I just described because of the amp I want to use and enclosure limitations.
Pano,
Interesting. Yes, what I am making is sort of a mono console. Yes, I like a good beer. 😉 Perhaps you could tell me relatively speaking what 110 db peak is like sonically, especially at 20 Hz? Is that respectable for a mono box, or should I readjust my goals entirely and start over? Again, I'm not looking for hyper-drive, just something with enough oomph to do a respectable job, but still handle the subtleties as well.
Tweet,
I have run many simulations with different speakers. I started with what I thought were fairly simple design goals; to use an existing 200 watt amplifier for bass, to allow a workable sealed volume to get as close to 20 Hz as I could, to get as much good sound as I could with the power. I simulated your suggested woofer, and though it has plenty of sensitivity, it unfortunately runs out of gas with X-max when I try to get close to 20 Hz. If I decrease Vb for stiffer compliance then the power shoots up. Unfortunately, that woofer is unsuitable for my speaker.
RobWells,
Thank you for the suggestion, but I would run into pretty much the same problems as I just described because of the amp I want to use and enclosure limitations.
Pano,
Interesting. Yes, what I am making is sort of a mono console. Yes, I like a good beer. 😉 Perhaps you could tell me relatively speaking what 110 db peak is like sonically, especially at 20 Hz? Is that respectable for a mono box, or should I readjust my goals entirely and start over? Again, I'm not looking for hyper-drive, just something with enough oomph to do a respectable job, but still handle the subtleties as well.
Sorry I missed the sealed box requirements ! - the JBL's would have to be ported and tuned around 35Hz, which is too high for your goals. Good luck with the project. I'd think you'd need a high efficiency driver for 150Hz up to get the most out of the small amp - maybe a big co-ax ?
Cheers,
Rob.
Cheers,
Rob.
I don't really understand the 20Hz goal. While there is some interesting noise down there from recordings in large venues, there isn't much music there. IME, a box that is solid down to the mid 30s will give you all the bass and room ambience you'd want.
Other than that, bass is really more in the 60-120 Hz octave. Bass drum hits are heavy around 90-100Hz. You do need response below 100 for that to sound right, but 30-40Hz is usually plenty low. Maybe you are playing Dubstep or EDM?
My old Altec VOTT system could handle 110dB peaks with ease, but not at 20Hz. In a typical size room, that was plenty. It allowed a decent dynamic range for classical music. On rock and pop, 110dB peaks were far too loud, because that put the average level at 95dB. Fine for a concert, not so much fun in a typical living room.
Other than that, bass is really more in the 60-120 Hz octave. Bass drum hits are heavy around 90-100Hz. You do need response below 100 for that to sound right, but 30-40Hz is usually plenty low. Maybe you are playing Dubstep or EDM?
My old Altec VOTT system could handle 110dB peaks with ease, but not at 20Hz. In a typical size room, that was plenty. It allowed a decent dynamic range for classical music. On rock and pop, 110dB peaks were far too loud, because that put the average level at 95dB. Fine for a concert, not so much fun in a typical living room.
Rob,
I'm currently favoring 2 Eminence Delta Pro-8Bs wired in parallel for the mid-bass, which should give me plenty of sensitivity and x-max.
Pano,
Fair point. Actually, it is important to me to make this system ready for any music thrown at it. I do enjoy a good dubstep or EDM track once in a while. What would you suggest to cover that, 25 Hz maybe?
And I appreciate the other information. Which VOTT system did you have, and what were it's limitations? As I said above, this could potentially go into an 800 sq. ft. room or so - what would you consider adequate to such a venue?
Thanks again for your replies.
I'm currently favoring 2 Eminence Delta Pro-8Bs wired in parallel for the mid-bass, which should give me plenty of sensitivity and x-max.
Pano,
Fair point. Actually, it is important to me to make this system ready for any music thrown at it. I do enjoy a good dubstep or EDM track once in a while. What would you suggest to cover that, 25 Hz maybe?
And I appreciate the other information. Which VOTT system did you have, and what were it's limitations? As I said above, this could potentially go into an 800 sq. ft. room or so - what would you consider adequate to such a venue?
Thanks again for your replies.
I m not pano but i'll give you an answer.
I was part of a crew having a sound system in the 2000's and we used to play regularly for free party and Tecknival. We played techno/hardcore/Drum & Bass at that time. The sound system was more techno than D&B oriented but D&B was ok on it.
The low freq fc was set to 40/35hz iirc. It was enough for most of the track. Only us D&B dj's where sometimes frustrated not to feel some drone from times to times but to be honest, i've only heard one or two dedicated sound system in UK which was able to play 20hz at the time and difference was there but not anything like night and day.
So for EDM i would say 40hz with enough spl is ok.
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