I'm going to cheat and say building a DIY subwoofer can easily beat an off the shelf subwoofer at the same price point.
Manufacturers are limited by shipping costs, and we can build a much better braced (heavier) box while not having to worry about the size of the box (as long as it can fit through the garage door). Particularly active subwoofers if we have expertise in building a DIY plate amplifier. Many of those plate amplifiers in active subwoofers under $500 appear to be low quality and cheap.
The answer becomes more complicated for most other speakers.
Under $20....yes, a simple DIY exciter XPS DML panel speaker pair will sound better in the midrange than anything offered off the shelf for under $20 (in the mid range)
I realize that I avoided the intention of the question. Too many variables for a simple answer.
I don't have a lot of knowledge or experience and know that I can't beat a pair of Dayton Audio MK402x at the current sale price of $52 or a single Kali LP 6V2 at $170.
But, the joy of building a speaker and then listening to it (warts and all) is priceless.
Manufacturers are limited by shipping costs, and we can build a much better braced (heavier) box while not having to worry about the size of the box (as long as it can fit through the garage door). Particularly active subwoofers if we have expertise in building a DIY plate amplifier. Many of those plate amplifiers in active subwoofers under $500 appear to be low quality and cheap.
The answer becomes more complicated for most other speakers.
Under $20....yes, a simple DIY exciter XPS DML panel speaker pair will sound better in the midrange than anything offered off the shelf for under $20 (in the mid range)
I realize that I avoided the intention of the question. Too many variables for a simple answer.
I don't have a lot of knowledge or experience and know that I can't beat a pair of Dayton Audio MK402x at the current sale price of $52 or a single Kali LP 6V2 at $170.
But, the joy of building a speaker and then listening to it (warts and all) is priceless.
You make a very good point.
Back on topic
But commercial consumer loudspeakers are designed and built to sell. In the affordable (sensibly price range up to $1,999.95) models they typically have a kink in the mid bass to make them sound bigger than they are with a response that subtly tappers off above 1,000 hertz.
As a result the magazine reviews are favourable because they sound nice. The manufacturers pay for 12 months of advertising and they get a nice review. It’s how it works.
But hey what is going on here?
The above is an exaggeration to point out what goes on in the big world of consumer home entertainment that is worth $billions.
At home you have the Savvy diyer with Clio Pocket 3 aiming for a dead flat response after spending months keenly simulating.
His two way design uses drivers that cost $1200, crossover parts $400 and enclosures $400 to build. So he shelled out about $2,000 to make it the best he could.
His audio buddy comes over an says wow. I like it but it’s not quite my cup of tea? He built a similar system for $2,000.
Obviously there are a lot of reasons why the audio buddy might give this response. But should it realistically be un expected?
To break it down assuming they both simulated a flat response and similar designs within reason what’s left to cause differences in their subjective responses?
His buddy’s ego?
How the speakers are set up in the room?
The equipment?
The size and shape of the room?
The recordings they each play ?
What else ?
I know from personal experience that measurements in rooms between one diy builder and another can vary enough that discrepancies can creep in between one independent build and another.
You then add the difference in the simulation to achieve a flat response and the crossover part values have changed.
Small measurement variations of +- 1 db can easily influence the overall tonal balance.
I believe it’s these differences and the differences in our rooms and different masters* of recordings that account for differences in subjective opinions.
(Unless you both have exactly the same release of a tune or an album it can be a different master. The subtle EQ or compression on a master can easily influence how we subjectively perceive a tune).
The overall product quality of the diy loudspeaker is head and shoulders above the consumer system.
It’s the tricks manufacturers play with the voicing that win the hearts of a buyer.
Other embedded differences in our diy builds, the room differences, loudspeaker set up and the recordings all play a part in our different opinions.
Really simple fix. Purchase a pair of reference speakers. Then you have a valid comparison in your own room. Gives you a benchmark to compare against any DIY you build.
Rob 🙂
Yeah as if there will be any consensus on what exactly a "Reference" speaker is but I take your point.
We've done a 2-Way reference thread and they were all slightly different
We've done a 2-Way reference thread and they were all slightly different
If you don't believe in the DIY concept and the value it brings to people by allowing them to own speakers that perform as well or better than commercial products that cost 10 times what they have to invest, then why are you even here on this forum? Quit wasting your time, and ours, and move to one of the end user audio sites. Here is one you might be much happier with:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php
Bye.
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Hello
I don't see that as insurmountable. I am talking a commercial speaker that has some "universal" appeal. Lets go into the way-back machine and say a Large Advent vs JBL L100. We all have preferences so that's a given. Whatever side of the fence you are on will determine which speaker you pick,
I have several "reference speakers" I use. They may not be yours but it's just a comparison to what we like individually. It at the very least gives you something to compare to.
Rob :}
You need to get to know more DIYers. The only DIYers I know are the ones I see at DIY events where 30 to 50 people get together and play their DIY speakers. Fort Wayne, IN; Springboro, OH; Detroit, MI; Ankeny, IA, etc.
The Parts Express Speaker Design Competition was in Springboro, OH two weekends ago. Andrew Jones was one of the judges. So not only do I know how my speakers sound, what 50 other people think of them, I also know what Andrew Jones thinks of them due to his scores and written comments. You should get out and mingle and see what is going on.
Seems irrelevant. DIY speakers aren't going to sell well for the same reason any other technical DIY product isn't going to sell well.
This is needlessly agressive and presumes everyone does DIY to save money. But DIY speakers are only cheaper if you either exclude the price of the tools (perhaps you already have them, but many people don't), or build something that looks inferior (*exception for subs which can just be painted matte black). Just purchasing a decent router is enough to blow your budget. I am under no illusion that what I've built is better than every single commercial product at the same price point. It is probably better than a few (some brands focus on marketing or looks more than performance), but I wouldn't be surprised at all if others outperform mine. I simply do it because I enjoy the process and what I learn along the way and I end up with something that makes me feel good.
If you look at the photos of diy speakers in System Pictures & Description, then the acoustics manufacturers will not make such absurdities and strange designs that violate reasonable meanings.
Yes, there are manufacturers who make acoustics to order, so their products can be taken to exhibitions, it is not embarrassing to show them, but many DIYers make very strange designs.
So, out of hundreds of DIYers, only a few people can be taken into account, the rest are blatant DIY.
I think if you take the best examples of famous acoustics manufacturers and the best examples of DIYers, the result will not be in favor of the DIYers.
If you want to see something needlessly aggressive look at the post that mine was in response to with comments like:
"Once you're out of your own little world???"
That's why I took the tone you see in my post.
Many of the DIYers here have already invested in woodworking tools and, if not, the cost is usually spread over building multiple speakers. So, to assign all of the cost to one speaker build is not normally the case.
And buying a decent router does not blow your budget by any means. You can buy a very good router for between $100 and $200, which is a small amount compared to what you can save by building your own speakers.
Finally, and as I have posted in other places, DIY does not necessarily mean you have to design it yourself. There are many designs by experts available as well as complete parts kits.
The Piccolo speakers I built and use mostly were from a kit designed by the late Jeff Bagby. I'll easily put them up against speakers I've heard in stores that cost 10 times what I paid for the parts.
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How do you know that? Have you heard the best examples of DIY speakers? I seriously doubt that you have.
My DIY experience is limited to a pair of RS225/10F FAST speakers from this forum.
I have enjoyed a few Harbeths as commercial speakers before.
I would say that the RS225/10Fs are the equal of some of the Harbeths - C7s, say for my preferences - after some EQ for room correction. I don’t know the relative prices these days - or what I ended up spending on my DIYs, but sure, we’re in the 5-10x category.
I have some good woodworking equipment but no workshop. I also didn’t have all the time in the world, so finish is good (commercial level mitres, rebates, tolerances) but, for example, I forgot to match plywood grain orientation to run around the box - that would never fly as a commercial finish, but I certainly can’t be fussed to remake them. And I think unless you are equally into cabinet making as you are audio - or spend a long time - this is one area where 9 times out of 10 - commercial will always look way slicker.
Then there’s crossover, which you probably do not want to design yourself because it is a) nuanced and b) needs lots of trial and refinement. This means that you are restricted to known designs. Unless - you go active, with DSP, and learn about that. But then you need more amp channels and DSP. So 90% of DIY is going to be a proven design. And this is actually a big chunk of the “free” value.
So yes, 100%, your “copy” DIY effort executed well will sound way better than a commercial offering at the price invested. But you will probably spend more in time than the cost difference (possibly not true if you’re going after eg. Wilson levels) and unless you have a workshop - or spend an inordinate amount of time - I guarantee it will not have commercial fit/finish.
Do it for the fun, learning, satisfaction etc. Then you will get something that you can listen to everyday and enjoy. But you can’t just decide you want some $5000 speakers, can’t afford them, so you’ll just build the same thing yourself.
I have enjoyed a few Harbeths as commercial speakers before.
I would say that the RS225/10Fs are the equal of some of the Harbeths - C7s, say for my preferences - after some EQ for room correction. I don’t know the relative prices these days - or what I ended up spending on my DIYs, but sure, we’re in the 5-10x category.
I have some good woodworking equipment but no workshop. I also didn’t have all the time in the world, so finish is good (commercial level mitres, rebates, tolerances) but, for example, I forgot to match plywood grain orientation to run around the box - that would never fly as a commercial finish, but I certainly can’t be fussed to remake them. And I think unless you are equally into cabinet making as you are audio - or spend a long time - this is one area where 9 times out of 10 - commercial will always look way slicker.
Then there’s crossover, which you probably do not want to design yourself because it is a) nuanced and b) needs lots of trial and refinement. This means that you are restricted to known designs. Unless - you go active, with DSP, and learn about that. But then you need more amp channels and DSP. So 90% of DIY is going to be a proven design. And this is actually a big chunk of the “free” value.
So yes, 100%, your “copy” DIY effort executed well will sound way better than a commercial offering at the price invested. But you will probably spend more in time than the cost difference (possibly not true if you’re going after eg. Wilson levels) and unless you have a workshop - or spend an inordinate amount of time - I guarantee it will not have commercial fit/finish.
Do it for the fun, learning, satisfaction etc. Then you will get something that you can listen to everyday and enjoy. But you can’t just decide you want some $5000 speakers, can’t afford them, so you’ll just build the same thing yourself.
Studio monitor manufacturer Neumann spent three years of development to create two-way acoustics by a group of engineers. I do not think that the diyer will spend three years of work to bring the acoustics to such a high level of sound.He simply does not have enough professional qualities since he is one and not a group of people meticulously working on the creation of acoustics.
Note that companies make acoustics for millions of people and this acoustics should sound accordingly, but diyer makes acoustics for his home needs, it may be crooked and sound bad, but he may like it.
Companies will spend a lot of time and resources that's true. But the success of a lot of DIY is that the good designs have had a lot of community input. If not the same development time as commercial offerings, probably a good fraction. And DIY development time does not have to include marketing strategy, supply chain, industrial design, warranty considerations, distribution, etc, etc, etc.
If your time is free - because it's a hobby/fun - and the final polish of fit/finish is not relevant to you, there is good value in DIY.
If you want the perfect cabinet, to start from absolute scratch design, and value your time at even $20 per hour - you should definitely stick to buying commercial offerings.
If your time is free - because it's a hobby/fun - and the final polish of fit/finish is not relevant to you, there is good value in DIY.
If you want the perfect cabinet, to start from absolute scratch design, and value your time at even $20 per hour - you should definitely stick to buying commercial offerings.
Back in the 70s when I was more active there seemed to be a much wider use of reference speakers among enthusiasts. They were not looked upon as the ultimate speakers but ones with a high technical performance that were widely available and so could act as a reference around which to discuss sound. Examples in the UK were speakers like the Quad electrostatic, Spendor BC1, IMF transmission line and perhaps one or two others. In the US different speakers tended to be used as references. Unfortunately when the subjective audiophile thing kicked off in the late 70s some speakers with a modest technical performance started to receive gushing over-the-top praise and the role of reference speakers for the general home audio enthusiasts was largely lost.
Today something like the Neumann KH 150 could play a similar role of a reference speaker for modest sized 2 ways. The KH 420, Revel Salon 2, Genelec 8361A, KEF Blade and perhaps one or two others could play a similar role for main speakers. There are a fair few around and enthusiasts will have some familiarity with them from shops, shows, bake-offs and visiting other enthusiasts. They have differing radiation patterns and so sound different but they are well designed and manufactured examples to act as a reference for DIY speakers.
This assumes that high technical performance is the primary objective for a DIY speaker which for many enthusiasts it is not. For those that strongly weight other objectives there may be other speakers that act as reference designs. Orion speakers are perhaps a reference for a fair few dipole enthusiasts but when I asked recently for a wideband driver to act as a reference in a comparison there was no consensus at all. I suspect the notion of a reference speaker tends to reduce as subjective enthusiasm grows relative to objective enthusiasm.
I would suggest that anyone that believes their DIY speakers are better than (the best by their definition) commercial speakers costing 10 times as much has a pretty strange notion of better. I cannot better the technical performance of the commercial speakers I listed above as reference main speakers although I would like to think I can get reasonably close, with a finish more to my taste and for a price less than the more expensive examples if I include material and tooling costs. If I include time costs then my DIY speakers are going to comfortably exceed the price of beolab 90s. This sort of costing is of course irrelevant to why I and I suspect many others have a hobby interest in designing and making speakers.
Please suggest some post-1990 non-boutique technically excellent yet reasonably affordable home speakers not pro gear.
2-cents: Well I personally am highly allergic to BR resonance so anything I diy is "subjectively better" than almost any "mainstream" commercial speaker of the past thirty years, up to say 10X my cost in material. I guess that really means "technically excellent" (BR or otherwise) does not come cheap, as in a mere several thousand USD dating back thirty-odd years.
My reference speakers since graduation: ESL63; various Lowther; Axiom80 briefly; and Monitor Audio Studio series then and now, port-plugged.
p.s. I wish I had my active monitors (Quad, Focal Be) or even smallest Dunlavy available as diy reference. But at home I don't really want to be restricted in choice of amplification, or having to put up rackmount hardware.
2-cents: Well I personally am highly allergic to BR resonance so anything I diy is "subjectively better" than almost any "mainstream" commercial speaker of the past thirty years, up to say 10X my cost in material. I guess that really means "technically excellent" (BR or otherwise) does not come cheap, as in a mere several thousand USD dating back thirty-odd years.
My reference speakers since graduation: ESL63; various Lowther; Axiom80 briefly; and Monitor Audio Studio series then and now, port-plugged.
p.s. I wish I had my active monitors (Quad, Focal Be) or even smallest Dunlavy available as diy reference. But at home I don't really want to be restricted in choice of amplification, or having to put up rackmount hardware.
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Thank you for your comment. I have ABSOLUTELY no problem with the DIY concept. Bless all your efforts.
My problem is with those who then, in the same post, then trash "respected" manufacturers. Post I remember most vividly, sometime in the past year or so was, to the effect that "no one at KEF could hear". Over the years, probably the most trashed manufacturer was Wilson Audio.
Wideband drivers are so out-of-mainstream today there can be no consensus. Yesterdays, Goodmans Axiom80 would qualify (Ted Jordan his JX92S maybe), and the likes of classic Fostex F200A, JBL Le8t. All past-tense. (Temporary survivor FE168eΣ? 108 NLA.)
Yet I have before me many excellent wideband drivers made-in-China but not for export -- because there's no popular demand for widebands in US & Europe.
Now there is a challenge. I and everyone I knew with an interest in home audio largely dropped it in disgust at the end of the 70s when subjective audiophile disinformation was adopted by what remained of the home audio mainstream. In the UK the 80s was perhaps the peak of this phenomenon with hardware like Naim and Linn being heavily pushed in shops and the media. Popular products are rather unlikely to have been technically excellent and affordable at this time but I expect there were a few less popular products that offered a good performance at an affordable price. I have no direct knowledge though only a sketchy historical one and will have to pass. Would be interesting to know to help fill in the history of what was an interesting time in home audio.
It is axiomatic that DIYers believe their creations are better than commercial counterparts. I think the reality is that only a minority of folks on this forum have the wherewithal to actually do that.
You have to be somewhat delusional to believe you can better these highly engineered 2-way speakers in terms of sound quality with personal resources, although that is not the goal of a lot of DIYers. I think a DIYer can make a good 2-way and have a lot of fun doing it.
John Murphy made a point in his book about commercial speaker building of old. He said they took SOTA drivers and made a simple crossover and called it good. I think DIYers can still do that today – especially in the 3-way space. If I look at “The Absolute Sound” recommended speakers over $20K, I see some of the same ScanSpeak drivers used there that anyone can buy. If you read JA’s measurements in Stereophile of these same speakers, you are not always impressed.
For me, building a kit was a good option.
You have to be somewhat delusional to believe you can better these highly engineered 2-way speakers in terms of sound quality with personal resources, although that is not the goal of a lot of DIYers. I think a DIYer can make a good 2-way and have a lot of fun doing it.
John Murphy made a point in his book about commercial speaker building of old. He said they took SOTA drivers and made a simple crossover and called it good. I think DIYers can still do that today – especially in the 3-way space. If I look at “The Absolute Sound” recommended speakers over $20K, I see some of the same ScanSpeak drivers used there that anyone can buy. If you read JA’s measurements in Stereophile of these same speakers, you are not always impressed.
For me, building a kit was a good option.