How do you get speakers to sound warm in the midrange.

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#22
#23
westsounds said:
Wow some great responses so far, I'm catching up slowly. Its always puzzled me this one how some speakers can take on this organic like quality then others sound like electrical noise in a plastic milk carton. As has been mentioned some speakers do just sound harsh particularly with digital sources as analogue does take some of the sting out of it. Which was why a lot of old gear used to just sound nice. The other side of that many years ago you'd have things that just sounded too laid back, mushy and lush with very little clarity.

One speaker which seems to have stood the test of time is the LS3/5A which just hit a sweet spot of all that mentioned above even if they had no deep bass as such. And it does have a slight tendency to have some bloom to the midrange which can give it that real organic warmth that many crave after. This was done with the bump of the lower frequencies I think or perhaps someone can explain better why it had that quality.

The thing is getting a loudspeaker to sound more natural and have that organic feel has to be down to science as there is no organic material in it. OK the wood, paper if it has these components in its make up were all organic once but they are dead now, there's no living organic material then like vocal chords etc.

Its always made me wonder why some speakers do it well and others fail miserably. Having a smiley face EQ on it can tame things from it being overbearing but not always bring that warm quality if it's missing in the first place.
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Much discussion has gone on over the LS 3/5A. It was designed as a speaker to go into OB vans because the larger monitors were too big and hence inappropriate.

Its primary purpose was to monitor speech quality, and to that end the low frequencies were not thought important.

You describe it as warm, and it has a peak around the 1k region which in particular was exhaustively discussed on the Harbeth forum.

It succeeded in fulfilling its design objective, but somehow gained a euphoric reputation way beyond its function.
 
#25
westsounds said:
Yes another great response. You can completely cover the response range in its entirety and measure perfectly but depending on the source and even down to the material used in the loudspeaker like paper cones or metal cones, the overall presentation will sound different. Paper cones have a duller sound than metal for instance. Wood will sound different from plastic enclosures. As I said earlier there is no living organic material like vocal chords in a speakers so getting it to sound the same is close to impossible, unless we create a mutant living loudspeaker here on DIY audio somehow 🙂

But as has been said adding things like tubes into the signal chain can add harmonics which are pleasing to the ear, maybe not as pleasing as real live experience but if anything sounds more pleasant it can't be a bad thing.
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Organic has a different and specific meaning in different disciplines. It has one in chemistry, another in art college, and apparently another here.

I've just unfortunately listened to Robbie Wiiliams, and to make it more pleasant, I turned it off.
 
#26
twinter said:
The chart below lists the "Warmth" range centered at the 200Hz, with the "Fullness/Mud" range centered at 350 Hz.

https://sanfranciscoaudiophilesociety.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/fjpeinppdlhmnhop.png

A system harmonic distortion profile with more 2nd harmonic distortion balance will have more warmth, i.e. soft driver cones (paper, polypropylene) or tube amplifiers, or specifically designed solid state amps.
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I regard paper as a very different animal from polypropylene, the latter can often take the guts out of mid, and the former if scraped with a fingernail will give quite high harmonics.
 
#28
Pharos said:
I regard paper as a very different animal from polypropylene, the latter can often take the guts out of mid, and the former if scraped with a fingernail will give quite high harmonics.
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I agree but both good and give different effects. Metal cones can sound disastrous for mids I feel but there are some really interesting sounding ones out there in certain designs.
 
#31
AllenB said:
to removing what shouldn't be there
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As you peel back layers the sound can get worse, yet it may be a step in the right direction. It's all too tempting to say that a change sounds bad and I'll undo that, however isn't this what you'd expect when a speaker has many flaws and you're listening to them all at the same time but can only deal with them separately? ..(Just as an example I think some may have encountered this when adding bracing to an otherwise OK speaker..)

You need to go out of your comfort zone, when you have determined by reason and measurement and research, that you've done the right thing.. even though you risk listening to bad speakers indefinitely until you find the next piece of the puzzle which you know is beyond your current level of understanding.
 
#33
GM said:
FWIW, this old chart redone from one Altec recommended to me in the '60s puts it in the narrow ~150-224 Hz BW: http://www.audio-issues.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/main_chart-610x677.jpg

GM
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I would have said its more a bump in the upper bass regions as well, combined with a well integrated slightly less dominant tweeter in the upper mid regions. Unless just by sheer luck and a good combination of drive unit qualities/components and cross over tweakery DSP would be the best way to achieve this. That is to get that much control of the drive units and frequencies. I bet some of you guys could probably design a crossover to achieve that but its way beyond my capabilities. I'm thinking of trying a Dayton audio 408 or possibly a Thomann t.racks 4x4 and stepping into the active world.
 
#34
westsounds said:
It may be distortion, colour call it whatever but warmth in the midrange seems to make a speaker sound more enjoyable to me. More organic richer true to life vocals. Is there a way to get this by adjusting the speaker a certain way or do you think it is just down to the driver itself or a sum of all the parts?

I know digital doesn't help as it can make things sound overly clinical at times but anyone know any warmth tricks?
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Maybe something like this: What is Accurate Sound? - Bits and Bytes - Audiophile Style

Happy listening!
 
#35
westsounds said:
I would have said its more a bump in the upper bass regions as well, combined with a well integrated slightly less dominant tweeter in the upper mid regions.
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Actually it's a dip to emphasize the bass overall so normally the cab alignment is designed with what looks like an under-damped alignment, i.e. sloping down from tuning, then rising as the driver's mass controlled BW ramps it back up, so no T/S max flat alignments unless the room sucks it out in this BW, which this low is often the case when speakers are pulled away from the walls just the right amount.

Best overall for rock, large orchestra and why to this day still a popular 'classic' alignment.

GM
 
#36
GM said:
Best overall for rock

GM
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Perhaps that explains why I like it, that is one of my favourite genres. I just like warmth in the midrange but not many off the shelf designs seem to deliver it. Some examples have been epos es11s and a few other epos models, Ruark Sceptres, possibly ProAc and BBC LS3/5A's to some extent. It just makes the vocal sound a bit more human imho also play louder with less fatigue. I would love to replicate it in my own DIY designs if that's possible but I think DSP will have to be employed to get me anywhere near that presentation. It'll be impossible 'for me' to design a crossover that could achieve it.
 
#37
One of my tricks (I didn't invent it of course) is to select an inductor that gives a lower frequency low pass then add some resistors in parallel until you bring up the higher frequencies to your personal liking and listening tastes. NOT baffle step correction really though the circuit looks the same. This is for frequencies in the mid-band. Once you get a feel for how this works; you may decide this gives you what you are looking for. Just looking at a driver's frequency response curve isn't the whole story of how it will "sound" in the real world. Don't be afraid to experiment; you can start with inexpensive resistors then replace them with a higher quality once you narrow down the value. You can use 2 terminals of an adjustable L-pad as a variable resistor to help fine tune; place series resistors on this L-pad if the values are too low. I use this method often and am usually always pleased with the results. I have used resistor values as low as 4 Ohms and as high as 82 Ohms. People might think that 82 Ohms in parallel with an inductor can't possibly make a difference but I have done it many times and it DOES make a difference; subtle but that is the whole idea. In general (no hard and fast rule here at all), resistor values I usually end up with are in the range of 8 to 50 Ohms; (start with maybe 22 Ohms; then try 11, then try 33, etc). Use clip leads; you'll get the feel for this rather quickly. I do this listening to very familiar recordings and also free, online test tones, frequency sweeps, etc.

This is just ONE trick out of many but it is very cheap and quick. It may not get you what you are seeking but it is certainly worth a try.
 
#38
Thanks great suggestion. The trouble is the whole crossover design thing is a little beyond me I think I will be far better suited to achieving what I want with DSP. Im just too far short of know how for how any changes in crossovers and electronics will get me to any sort of desired results. DSP could make it a possibly however.
 
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