He's absolutely right. Guys like Brett probably don't have any friends who are audiophiles. He gets his idea of one by reading about them, so he's not calling them as he sees them but as he perceives them. Every audiophile I know is crazy about music, with thousands of albums. Some have cds only, some have vinyl only, some have both and one I know is lucky enough to have tapes. Not only are listening sessions full of great music, there is a great deal of camaraderie. I feel sorry for someone who can't share this kind of experience.
John
John
Yeah, there are a lot of guys who show that are so into software that I go into their rooms every year to learn about new artists. Jeff Catalano's room at RMAF is a good example. Sure he's selling really good and expensive gears, but he seems more interested in talking about the music and artists. Every year a buddy of mine goes to the show in Montreal as a photographer and the first thing everyone asks when he gets back is, "How was the software?". Security made him repack his bags last year because he was trying to carry on so many records.
John
Well there is plenty of foolishness in the audio world, no doubt. But same in other passions and pursuits. I just hate to see the good term "audiophile" get tarred with that brush.
If we want to talk about "audiophools" who do sily things, that's OK by me. But I can't say that I know any who listen only to a certain type of music or a limited selection. Just haven't ever met them.
If we want to talk about "audiophools" who do sily things, that's OK by me. But I can't say that I know any who listen only to a certain type of music or a limited selection. Just haven't ever met them.
For phono cartridges, it depends. Vertical distortion is typically much higher than lateral. If you look at HD at a standard level (my old test records were at 3.54 cm/s), it's on the order of 1% or so lateral, maybe 5% vertical. Intermods (the test signals my records had were usually 400/4kHz) usually ran 10% or so vertical. I think that distortion asymmetry is one of the things that common plugins miss when trying to emulate vinyl.
NB: I haven't done these measurements in a couple of decades. Perhaps modern cartridges have much lower distortion- I'd be interested in any actual data anyone has.
Try being a manufacturer for a decade or so and see if Brett isn't right. I have to agree with Brett that there is at least a subset of the crowd for whom music is at best secondary. A system built around a $95K Japanese built 211 integrated amplifier may be less about music and the performance than subtly advertising the owner's wealth and status to those not entirely clueless about such things.
I'm well acquainted with some for whom owning the latest and most trendy gear is what it is all about, and given the rate of churn in those systems it can't be about anything else. Choice is dictated by what is or has been recently popular and how much of a used market there is for the gear once the luster has worn off and boredom has set in.
And no, I'm not talking about the crowd that hangs out here. Friends and fellow forum members tend to be a rather more interesting, knowledgeable and dedicated lot who clearly IMHO do not exhibit these dysfunctional behaviors! 😀
As far as the term "audiophile" is concerned I think the damage is long done, near total strangers have cringed when I mentioned I was an audiophile and a little further digging often reveals that the term has come to be regarded in a pejorative way by many "lay people." 😛 Such remarks as "selfish, self-centered anti-social individuals more into equipment than fellow human beings" , "odd folk with a fixation on expensive stereo equipment and incomprehensible jargon," and finally "a group of people worshiping at the altar of a superstitious religion based on not a shred of scientific reality" - sadly that last one has been common in my experience dealing with prospective and actual customers. 😀
Allot of what is written on last page will get translated and posted in my language 😀 Especially the audiophile definitions from the last post. I have heard engineers in the audio sphere saying that audiophiles were colleagues of Pedo Bear 🙂
If I want to test a system, particularly a set of speakers, I will bring GNR "Use Your Illusion" I and II with me... And maybe some Peter Gabriel... but I think most systems even if they swallow Peter Gabriel will fail with Guns and Roses anyway. Allot of oportunities for a lousy bass, midrange distortion, lack of detail, possibility of HF sounding jammed. They had some close to big band number of musicians and back vocals for some of the songs. For instance easily hidable back vocals or incomprehensive back vocals... - do you think GNR are hard to reproduce properly?
And litlle more off topic, does anyone of you have the vinyl records of Use Your Illusion I and II? - Would you recomend it? - er... for testing and comparison with the CD versions that i already have. - naturally...
If I want to test a system, particularly a set of speakers, I will bring GNR "Use Your Illusion" I and II with me... And maybe some Peter Gabriel... but I think most systems even if they swallow Peter Gabriel will fail with Guns and Roses anyway. Allot of oportunities for a lousy bass, midrange distortion, lack of detail, possibility of HF sounding jammed. They had some close to big band number of musicians and back vocals for some of the songs. For instance easily hidable back vocals or incomprehensive back vocals... - do you think GNR are hard to reproduce properly?
And litlle more off topic, does anyone of you have the vinyl records of Use Your Illusion I and II? - Would you recomend it? - er... for testing and comparison with the CD versions that i already have. - naturally...
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If you are in the business you should try and learn how very wealthy people think. I know a couple of people like that and though it seems they may move a lot of equipment, it's more a quest for better sound than boredom or status. Switching out $50,000 amplifiers means no more to them financially than you or I upgrading from a $300 cartridge to a $600 one. I can't imagine how audio equipment has anything to do with status because it doesn't mean anything to anyone else. These guys are more likely loathe to talk about an expensive piece of equipment that failed to meet expectations than to brag about how much they've paid. They are smart enough to know how to get out from under an expensive piece of gear that didn't work for them in order to minimize losses. I'm sure there are people out there who attempt to make status with audio equipment but I can hardly imagine how they could be successful.
John
Well Kevin, now that you mention it I do remember going to audio shows in the 80s and seeing gold plated kilo-dollar tube amps. Really gold plated. Many thousands of $$$. And not that great sounding. I asked "who would buy those?" "Southeast Asian drug lords" was usually the answer. You gotta do something with all that cash, right?
But maybe I am lucky, I don't know any of those people.
But maybe I am lucky, I don't know any of those people.
Ah, goldplated $175K coke chop stands, with matching complimentary razor blade : SOVEREIGN High End Hi-Fi Amplifiers and Loudspeakers * Germany * The offical Homepage
(jeez, Tommy Höhne's face looks like he spent the last 25 years on booz and brothels, suit's still the same)
(jeez, Tommy Höhne's face looks like he spent the last 25 years on booz and brothels, suit's still the same)
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What's the issue with you guys, we are in an DIY Audio forum , what's wrong in asking about what is being used to make your evaluations...
Jeeesh..
Here's what I'm DIYing. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/anal...touch-sense-remote-active-passive-preamp.html. What have you designed recently?
w
Waki , Errrr, nice work ! ............
Now about your hi-fi system, I would like to think your comments are not off the cuff, so please do tell us about your Hi-Fi system and digital playback.
regards,
Now about your hi-fi system, I would like to think your comments are not off the cuff, so please do tell us about your Hi-Fi system and digital playback.
regards,
He has told us some of what he hasn't - a standalone DAC http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/186177-chinese-dac.html#post2524677
I was hoping that he would give us his expert digital opinion on it's design when he got it !
Guys, wait a minute! It does not have to be a High-End system in order to evaluate two different sources! Or does it?
IMHO in order an evaluation to be valid, only the test conditions should be controlled and the same for the two tested equipments. Naturally the equipment that stays the same should be above certain minimum quality.
Always digging for further details and complications is a condition of society or certain individual that is similar to a lazy "Nay" saying bureaucratic machine.
Analog supporters say, that one and the same album sounds better on LP, digital supporters say, maybe but the master record for the vinyl is different. Analog supporters say that vinyl has greater bandwidth, digital supporters say, that the DAC's of the analog supporters are crap.
And so on the dispute goes to the infinity and is never solved.
For instance, I have conducted comparisons with a Yamaha CDX-993 and a Technics-1200. Phono preamp: the built in of a Behringer VMX-100, Cartridge: the cheapest Stanton. The CDX signal was fed to the second stereo channel of the Behringer and the output levels of both sources were matched to +/- 1 db (through the gain of each channel).
Test material: Herbie Hancock (The Imagine Project) both on CD and 4 LP's, Dire Sraits LP - two LP double albums and the same tracks from CD's and Eric Clapton various tracks on LP and CD. Always comparing one and the same track from both sources with matched level.
Test Speakers OB with Fane midrange and Expolinear ribbon tweeter + MJK "18 H-frames
How come it all sounded better from the turntable? Better sound clarity, better definition, better imaging and not only centered image, but right to left and even depth... Testing audience is between 22 and 65 years old... - not a single vote for CD...
Consider the fact that when using one and the same pre amp, the output transistors feeding the power amp are the same, so this is the best testing situation.
The same situation when testing with pre-amp Yamaha C-85 and with virtually any of mine amplifiers.
All my equipment is a normal slightly better than ordinary grade. So my results are valid for 99+ percent of the world population. - That is what it will sound like in virtually any home and what virtually any normal enthusiast will experience.
So again, the "High End" excuse is not an excuse at all! Because a large variety of equipment produced by small grade minor manufacturers can not be compared in terms of consistency to the products of major world brands. Just a fact to consider: the R&D costs of a middle to small scale family saloon such as Ford Mondeo Ford Mondeo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia are more than the all time turnover of a company such as Ferrari. This means that the not remarkable in any aspect Ford is better engineered than all Ferrari's ever made together. The same with audio equipment and any other machinery.
If now someone buries that conclusion with a remark such as "the sports cars have one purpose, but they serve it better and the universal car does nothing well" we will end with no conclusion. The fact that the small scale manufacturer does only one thing good means only that it's product might not like your amplifier or might require further care in order to function at all.
Saw what happened when a large scale manufacturer undertook the production of a super product? Bugatti Veyron - does everything better than a Mondeo except for fuel economy and less seats... Know why? It's R&D budget was several times more... Near 10 billion $ against 2 billion $. - that is a difference. And mind who spends and what is spent. Small manufacturers say "we invested thousands of hours" - of what? of your 5 employees? Big manufacturer say "We R&D'd for 2 billion $, now use it as you wish"...
... enough for the system quality argue I think. Everyone has a valid opinion as long as he states the test conditions. If he does not give his reasoning it is again a valid opinion, but that is called Democracy - Vox Populi, and in order it to work it relies on scale, because this is statistics transformed into will.
Sorry for the rather long post.
Wish you best!
IMHO in order an evaluation to be valid, only the test conditions should be controlled and the same for the two tested equipments. Naturally the equipment that stays the same should be above certain minimum quality.
Always digging for further details and complications is a condition of society or certain individual that is similar to a lazy "Nay" saying bureaucratic machine.
Analog supporters say, that one and the same album sounds better on LP, digital supporters say, maybe but the master record for the vinyl is different. Analog supporters say that vinyl has greater bandwidth, digital supporters say, that the DAC's of the analog supporters are crap.
And so on the dispute goes to the infinity and is never solved.
For instance, I have conducted comparisons with a Yamaha CDX-993 and a Technics-1200. Phono preamp: the built in of a Behringer VMX-100, Cartridge: the cheapest Stanton. The CDX signal was fed to the second stereo channel of the Behringer and the output levels of both sources were matched to +/- 1 db (through the gain of each channel).
Test material: Herbie Hancock (The Imagine Project) both on CD and 4 LP's, Dire Sraits LP - two LP double albums and the same tracks from CD's and Eric Clapton various tracks on LP and CD. Always comparing one and the same track from both sources with matched level.
Test Speakers OB with Fane midrange and Expolinear ribbon tweeter + MJK "18 H-frames
How come it all sounded better from the turntable? Better sound clarity, better definition, better imaging and not only centered image, but right to left and even depth... Testing audience is between 22 and 65 years old... - not a single vote for CD...
Consider the fact that when using one and the same pre amp, the output transistors feeding the power amp are the same, so this is the best testing situation.
The same situation when testing with pre-amp Yamaha C-85 and with virtually any of mine amplifiers.
All my equipment is a normal slightly better than ordinary grade. So my results are valid for 99+ percent of the world population. - That is what it will sound like in virtually any home and what virtually any normal enthusiast will experience.
So again, the "High End" excuse is not an excuse at all! Because a large variety of equipment produced by small grade minor manufacturers can not be compared in terms of consistency to the products of major world brands. Just a fact to consider: the R&D costs of a middle to small scale family saloon such as Ford Mondeo Ford Mondeo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia are more than the all time turnover of a company such as Ferrari. This means that the not remarkable in any aspect Ford is better engineered than all Ferrari's ever made together. The same with audio equipment and any other machinery.
If now someone buries that conclusion with a remark such as "the sports cars have one purpose, but they serve it better and the universal car does nothing well" we will end with no conclusion. The fact that the small scale manufacturer does only one thing good means only that it's product might not like your amplifier or might require further care in order to function at all.
Saw what happened when a large scale manufacturer undertook the production of a super product? Bugatti Veyron - does everything better than a Mondeo except for fuel economy and less seats... Know why? It's R&D budget was several times more... Near 10 billion $ against 2 billion $. - that is a difference. And mind who spends and what is spent. Small manufacturers say "we invested thousands of hours" - of what? of your 5 employees? Big manufacturer say "We R&D'd for 2 billion $, now use it as you wish"...
... enough for the system quality argue I think. Everyone has a valid opinion as long as he states the test conditions. If he does not give his reasoning it is again a valid opinion, but that is called Democracy - Vox Populi, and in order it to work it relies on scale, because this is statistics transformed into will.
Sorry for the rather long post.
Wish you best!
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Just too many holes in that long post.
I will just comment that your arguement about R&D budget is completely bogus. You have never been to Ferrari and you have no idea how the two companies build cars. yes, I have been to both, I have spent 20+ years in the distribution/automation supply chain management field. I have seen incredible engineering throughout the world (The German's still do something special).
I also know about small companies that build better automated equipment on $50 million budgets then $1 billion budgets. $$$ has NEVER dictated quality or performance and some companies are just bloated and have wasted budget.
In the pure sense of audio business, audio science the foundation behind CD is superior the LP. That has 20+ years of history behind it, you should google it. Btw, this has NOTHING to do with the sound someone likes our own experiences dictate what we like and that has little do with accuracy.
I will just comment that your arguement about R&D budget is completely bogus. You have never been to Ferrari and you have no idea how the two companies build cars. yes, I have been to both, I have spent 20+ years in the distribution/automation supply chain management field. I have seen incredible engineering throughout the world (The German's still do something special).
I also know about small companies that build better automated equipment on $50 million budgets then $1 billion budgets. $$$ has NEVER dictated quality or performance and some companies are just bloated and have wasted budget.
In the pure sense of audio business, audio science the foundation behind CD is superior the LP. That has 20+ years of history behind it, you should google it. Btw, this has NOTHING to do with the sound someone likes our own experiences dictate what we like and that has little do with accuracy.
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