Ears don't lie, but often the brain does.
It's a pretty simple issue- either you got the right digits through all that software or you didn't. How did the bit comparison look between the WAV file and the CD?
It's a pretty simple issue- either you got the right digits through all that software or you didn't. How did the bit comparison look between the WAV file and the CD?
It's been years (the project was in the year 2000, if I remember correctly). I think the bit comparison was perfect. I put it down to the differences between materials in the discs at the time.
Perhaps I can find the original CD-R (I should have it still) and a first pressing copy of the commercial disc. Rip 'em to WAV files and compare. While I'm at it, I could listen again and compare. I don't know if I have the original stereo WAV. Maybe... Wait... What does the difference between WAV file and master CDR have to do with difference between master CDR and dupes?
Oh, now what have I done? I made non-paying audio work for myself. I have a talent for that, at least... 😱
Perhaps I can find the original CD-R (I should have it still) and a first pressing copy of the commercial disc. Rip 'em to WAV files and compare. While I'm at it, I could listen again and compare. I don't know if I have the original stereo WAV. Maybe... Wait... What does the difference between WAV file and master CDR have to do with difference between master CDR and dupes?
Oh, now what have I done? I made non-paying audio work for myself. I have a talent for that, at least... 😱
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Barry Diament has written in forums about differences with various CD pressing plants. There's one particular one which he claims makes the best sounding CD's. At least closest to the original but never quite the same. He says you can immediately hear the difference.
I would attribute that to the quality of the medium. Maybe the pits or the reflectivity etc., causing jitter. I thinking if, you rip both to the computer, probably they will sound the same.
I would attribute that to the quality of the medium. Maybe the pits or the reflectivity etc., causing jitter. I thinking if, you rip both to the computer, probably they will sound the same.
I know you mean to say, "I don't believe you. Prove it." Fair enough.
The thing is, the difference was not the final WAV files vs. the CD-R. That final CD-R was my final product. The difference I was talking about was between the CD-R master sent out for duplication vs. the finished, packaged CD's that came back. Unfortunately, the duplicator probably would not be able to tell us what they did back in late 2000. Or maybe they would, I dunno...
To be able to compare the WAV files (originals, tracks from master CD-R and tracks from duped CD), I'll need to rip the CD-R master to WAV files, and rip the dupe CD to WAV files. Should I do this in EAC, or is there a more accurate way of performing this? It's been years since I played with this end of things, so EAC may have been eclipsed as the most accurate ripper out there. It used to be considered da bomb.
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No, when I mean that, I say it. 😀 Given the vagaries of software and OS, it's important to know if the numbers are altered. if they're not, THEN it's time for "I don't believe you, prove it." In the meantime, there's a perfectly logical possibility that needs to be looked at. I'd use EAC.
Back in the '70s, I spent a very educational evening with Thomas Stockham. His analogy was, "If you print Shakespeare with a different font, or if you get coffee stains on the pages, the play is still perfectly intact."
Well, I suppose that if your CD player closes the tray when you select play, the two will have the same number of steps.
I still have to make sure that the CD is clean and I am still inclined to handle it by the edges. So what if you have to clean a record every five years or so? One of the main reasons I and all of my friends switched to the SP10 is that is less hairshirty than anything else.
John
Maybe it's just me, but I clean my records and my stylus on every play. Squint to get the stylus lined up. Turn down the volume. Drop the stylus and hope I was sober enough to get it in the right place. Turn the volume back up. Jump up after 15 minutes to turn down the volume and get the stylus lifted before getting the BANGS from the lead out groove. Now, add in screwing and unscrewing the record reflex clamp each time...
CD: Open drawer. Place CD. Close drawer. Press "start."
CD: Open drawer. Place CD. Close drawer. Press "start."
Wow, all that just to play a record. You've been reading too many audiophile rags.🙂
One time a turntable manufacturer came over and was going through this elaborate ritual to play a record and we were all fapping in pantomime behind his back. Soon afterward, that record player was gone.
John
Even better.
The argument that LPs are just as convenient as CDs is... novel, I'll grant you that.
rongon
Any chance of uploading those as .wav files if you can locate them ?.
A couple of members involved in this thread know that I have many times uploaded .wav files for comparison purposes that I claim to sound different, despite the check sums saying otherwise.
SandyK
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I know I should stay away from this thread, but SandyK is correct and this has been noted many times by others.
I've heard some tentative explanations by software engineers, but I wouldn't want state it as an absolute fact.
Best Regards,
TerryO
Of course, you'll never, ever give us the names of three of these 'experts'. To do that would blow your case wide open 😀
To begin to answer your question, it would help to know what player you were listening to these on?
Bits are always bits, but bits can't be listened to because bits are an abstraction. They do have to be processed to give us sound, and that process isn't perfect (notwithstanding the repeated misrepresentations on this thread). I'm curious to understand what happened too, so any more information you can share to shed light would be welcome.
I like that one better ! 😀
I guess that at age 71, although never an expert, I am a "has been" too ?
Alex
I was simply making a counter-argument to the theory that because LP takes somewhat more effort than CD, the analogue freak is fooled into thinking that it must be better. Sort of like the delusion that your handmade pizzas are better than Tombstone frozen pizzas because you feel that you are automatically rewarded for your effort.🙂
The real answer is that it is usually worth the effort in the case of analogue.
John
So where was the counter argument to that? I must have missed it😀
Yes, I read a chapter about this effect in Dan Ariely's latest - 'The upside of irrationality'. The 'delusion' is very real, most people have it, analog freaks not excluded.
And indeed likewise in the case of Sandra Lee. Ariely's done the experiments - want to argue with his results?😀
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