It appears you are still laboring under the delusion that people come to places like this to discuss issues with the goal to increase understanding and insight.
You'll get over it
jan didden
It's the personal hostility that knocks me sideways. I like a robust discussion about a topic, but some of the comments seem so... unnecessary.
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Saw a great documentary on brain elasticity. They were saying that when your learning something, like playing the piano, imagining to practice creates new neural connections almost as fast as actually practicing. It reinforced my view that the brain is way more powerful than we think and the subconcious more in control than we realize. Thats why I never take the statement "It sounds better" at face value, even when Im saying it. One has to prove it sounds better or you may as well be saying "that speaker is prettier than the other one". It becomes fashion and then fad and opinions become the norm. And thats pretty much the state of audio these days. This forum is somewhat of a refuge, but theres still a lot of fashion going on here.
I think you'll find that that argument runs aground pretty quickly around here. It sounds better if it sounds better to you. Anything else is just 'objectivist' nonsense.
Some of us have tried to discuss it only to have you make grossly insulting, snide and unproductive remarks. You may want to go back and review some of your posts. If you fail to find anything that you've said during this thread that's "unnecessary", then it may be that you actually have problems with objectivity in many areas.
TerryO
What is now the conclusion?
What I already mentioned a good LP reproduction recorded on a cd sounds great to.
Well, you hit the core problem- the sound of the formats versus the sounds that companies releasing music in these formats choose.
For the brain, the boundary between 'real' and 'imagined' is pretty arbitrary.
Whetehr you see some picture, or whether you imagine that picture exercises pretty much the same patterns in the brain.
Try to call up a picture of your mother as you last saw her.
OK?
First of all, you 'see'' your mother as a pure figment of your imagination - she's not there. You 'see' things that aren't there.
Secondly, chances are that you are now experiencing the same mood as that occasion when you saw her. For the brain, the 'event' is an integrated event, the picture, the sounds that were there, the mood your mother and you were in at the time. You call up any part of that memory and you get the whole package in various degrees of realism.
That's what your up to if you try to be 'objective'. The brain is cheating, unreliable and lying, all in the service of your ego.
jan didden
just a point of view here. And hopefully not too far off current topic, as I started and finished more than four hours apart.
As for whom my comments are addressed:
YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE.....lmao.
Aside from bickering and calling audiophiles terminal shut-in’s most likely living in the basement (acoustically treated I hope) of their mothers house, unable to relate to any advancements in the technologies that brings us all music. Unable to pickup women or otherwise relate to the opposite sex.
I also note I’ve never taken a “shower” to help alleviate the pain derived from sprang joints, or pulled muscles from participation in baseball, football or basketball. That requires either a hot or cold bath. Usually both.
Having to deal with that sort of thing demands you actually participate in something besides surfing the web, and gathering gigabytes of poorly recorded dribble.
That will most certainly serve to get you outside more than sitting on a couch pressing a button to serve up digital noise masquerading as music.
And yeah, girls and women alike dig guys who are physical….ya know?
God forbid some “digital-philes” should have to actually move their rear end enough to actually flip a record, and lower a stylus. But I digress.
The ultimate convenience of digital music lives within the “drag and drop” mentality. All of us must contend with the big business aspect of supplying the “I WANT IT NOW” age junkies. And I mean everything from the sorted details of a person’s personal business, to music.
I will concede that this is the path music lovers must now tread.
Make no mistake, to be a “true” audiophile, you must love music.
The information age, which inundates us with…..well information and all we have to do is enter a “key word” a topic or click a picture. I can not condemn the majority of these advances. Especially in the medical industry where the ability to share and publish information routinely save, and make lives better. And indeed I advantage myself of them daily. Otherwise its quantity verses quality. And it is up to each individual to parse what he or she considers relevant.
Let’s face it, escalating technology has often has not followed the “devils in the details” path. Just lop it off and serve it up. Because the majority is too self consumed to judge the quality. They just hear music, and most likely are not into any specific artist, either instrumental or vocal. Do digital-philes exist who actually want nuance over volume? I am here to tell you indeed yes indeed they do. And I recognize that fact because I am one of them.
Involvement, pride in ownership and care taken are requirements to play and maintain vinyl. It’s also important to have a reference to music through either playing, singing or listening to others play and sing in the live realm.
It occurs to me that many (not all) digital babies lack those particular attributes. By the way, record players (crude though they may be) are sold in Best Buy. I think more than a few young people will be rescued from push button dope.
As for whom my comments are addressed:
YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE.....lmao.
Aside from bickering and calling audiophiles terminal shut-in’s most likely living in the basement (acoustically treated I hope) of their mothers house, unable to relate to any advancements in the technologies that brings us all music. Unable to pickup women or otherwise relate to the opposite sex.
I also note I’ve never taken a “shower” to help alleviate the pain derived from sprang joints, or pulled muscles from participation in baseball, football or basketball. That requires either a hot or cold bath. Usually both.
Having to deal with that sort of thing demands you actually participate in something besides surfing the web, and gathering gigabytes of poorly recorded dribble.
That will most certainly serve to get you outside more than sitting on a couch pressing a button to serve up digital noise masquerading as music.
And yeah, girls and women alike dig guys who are physical….ya know?
God forbid some “digital-philes” should have to actually move their rear end enough to actually flip a record, and lower a stylus. But I digress.
The ultimate convenience of digital music lives within the “drag and drop” mentality. All of us must contend with the big business aspect of supplying the “I WANT IT NOW” age junkies. And I mean everything from the sorted details of a person’s personal business, to music.
I will concede that this is the path music lovers must now tread.
Make no mistake, to be a “true” audiophile, you must love music.
The information age, which inundates us with…..well information and all we have to do is enter a “key word” a topic or click a picture. I can not condemn the majority of these advances. Especially in the medical industry where the ability to share and publish information routinely save, and make lives better. And indeed I advantage myself of them daily. Otherwise its quantity verses quality. And it is up to each individual to parse what he or she considers relevant.
Let’s face it, escalating technology has often has not followed the “devils in the details” path. Just lop it off and serve it up. Because the majority is too self consumed to judge the quality. They just hear music, and most likely are not into any specific artist, either instrumental or vocal. Do digital-philes exist who actually want nuance over volume? I am here to tell you indeed yes indeed they do. And I recognize that fact because I am one of them.
Involvement, pride in ownership and care taken are requirements to play and maintain vinyl. It’s also important to have a reference to music through either playing, singing or listening to others play and sing in the live realm.
It occurs to me that many (not all) digital babies lack those particular attributes. By the way, record players (crude though they may be) are sold in Best Buy. I think more than a few young people will be rescued from push button dope.
Just looked back over them. There's a huge difference between levity/irony/humour and plodding, brooding, self-importance. ("Are you disrespecting me?!")
I was lucky. I was brought up in an environment where we learned to enjoy arguing about ideas without feeling the need to attack the person or take personal offence at an opposing argument. It's called debating, and sometimes people even take the opposing side just for the fun of it.
My posts may have been (humorously) critical of people's ideas, but not them personally. I would welcome any posts such as the ones I have made here.
Coppertop, I admire your pseudoscience vigilance (and I've done more than a bit of it myself), but I don't see the present topic falling within those bounds. As I've stated previously, if the CD vs LP audio war wasn't still close, the question wouldn't have been asked or the thread would have died at 17 replies rather than 1700 and counting.
Nor, I'd imagine, would Best Buy be selling turntables. I wasn't aware that they were. Now I might be interested in a couple opinions from those buyers. I don't believe that it's all about old timers and nostalgia; there must be some audiophile interest there.
Nor, I'd imagine, would Best Buy be selling turntables. I wasn't aware that they were. Now I might be interested in a couple opinions from those buyers. I don't believe that it's all about old timers and nostalgia; there must be some audiophile interest there.
Best Buy is not exactly selling audiophile-grade TTs...
Turntables: Record Players & DJ Turntables - Best Buy
Turntables: Record Players & DJ Turntables - Best Buy
Sorry for my unwanted comment in this matter. However, from physically point of view, neither turntable signal nor CD output really contains 3D informations. The phantom sources align at a line between the loudspeakers, never behind and nor in front. That's comprehensible, if we are moving in the listening area. For example, if the violin in the concert hall straight in front of the timbale, we hear both instruments from the same direction. The real violin occurred left from timbal, if we move to the right wall at the concert hall. Both phantom sources between the loudspeakers, conversely, remain at her common starting point, unfortunately.
Besides, there is no information regarding the elevation of the sound source, or what is more important, regarding their first reflections in the recording room are included in stereo recordings.
Sorry for disturbing the dreams.
H.
Wave Field Synthesis and Holophony
I wonder if we are barking up the wrong tree when discussing the relative resolution of vinyl vs CD. My theory is that early digital, (or should it be early CD players?) were offensive enough, causing the fatigue I commented on earlier, to mean my hearing/neural system simply wasn't perceiving or processing the detail which theory indicates was always present. Is low level detail perceivable through the media of wildly slewing op amp I/V stages and high levels of jitter?
Illuminating to me at least is my recent playing with clocking in my CD/SACD player. The upgraded clock resulted in far superior perceived low level detail, amongst other benefits.
Rob.
Illuminating to me at least is my recent playing with clocking in my CD/SACD player. The upgraded clock resulted in far superior perceived low level detail, amongst other benefits.
Rob.
What is now the conclusion?
What I already mentioned a good LP reproduction recorded on a cd sounds great to.
You're having mentioned it doesn't make it so. Nor does anyone else's say-so.
John
If by any chance you get the impression I'm attacking (as opposed to describing) you personally, then highlight the apparently offensive remarks I've made and I'll either apologise and withdraw them, or explain why no attack was intended. That's just on the off-chance its my posts you're alluding to. If not, then carry on...
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