Hi rick,
Was just at your site. The imput chips I'm just wondering about, but the solder is something that I've been wondering what to buy for any projects I have around here. Would it be to late to call you, if I called you now?
Ray
Was just at your site. The imput chips I'm just wondering about, but the solder is something that I've been wondering what to buy for any projects I have around here. Would it be to late to call you, if I called you now?
Ray
Re: some secrets are not secrets
Ric, I think it obvious enough that a different brand of cap will have it's own trademark characteristics. Given that the mess of values you've tried have no discernable pattern, and only case size in common, there's but a single scientific conclusion you can make which is that case size in itself is not a major controlling factor, and therefor you should look beyond it, set up a patterns for tests which will provide repeatable results.
I maintain my findings, unless you can tell me that for instance, a higher capacitance value will have less bass for a given variety of cap..
I guess I helped sell those Jensen's for you. Secrets aren't fun, but they sure are safe.
To be frank I'm bothered you'd make the kind of confusing and boundless post as above and then claim anything of value being secret, especially here, where we others share freely.
Looks like it got you a customer though, poor guy will never be a DIY'er.
Sweet dreams Ric,
Chris
Ric Schultz said:
Ric, I think it obvious enough that a different brand of cap will have it's own trademark characteristics. Given that the mess of values you've tried have no discernable pattern, and only case size in common, there's but a single scientific conclusion you can make which is that case size in itself is not a major controlling factor, and therefor you should look beyond it, set up a patterns for tests which will provide repeatable results.
I maintain my findings, unless you can tell me that for instance, a higher capacitance value will have less bass for a given variety of cap..
Ric Schultz said:
I guess I helped sell those Jensen's for you. Secrets aren't fun, but they sure are safe.
To be frank I'm bothered you'd make the kind of confusing and boundless post as above and then claim anything of value being secret, especially here, where we others share freely.
Looks like it got you a customer though, poor guy will never be a DIY'er.
Sweet dreams Ric,
Chris
tweaks and secrets
Ray,
What I share here, on other forums and my website is all I share. I have nothing more to add. I am sure someone will discect my amp and tell what they see...until then, read my posts and others...lots to try.
Chris,
I don't understand your "anything of value being kept secret". I did not say that. I have shared many "new" things here that most have never tried. How many of you have tried removing the steel plate and bolt from your transformers and steel screw from your diode bridge?...this is valuable info that would only take 5 or 10 minutes to verify. I share what I can. What I share is valuable. Same for you. Don't know what customer you are refering to....Ray just wants me to give him some info. He does not want to buy an amp from me. Sweet dreams to you, too!
Ray,
What I share here, on other forums and my website is all I share. I have nothing more to add. I am sure someone will discect my amp and tell what they see...until then, read my posts and others...lots to try.
Chris,
I don't understand your "anything of value being kept secret". I did not say that. I have shared many "new" things here that most have never tried. How many of you have tried removing the steel plate and bolt from your transformers and steel screw from your diode bridge?...this is valuable info that would only take 5 or 10 minutes to verify. I share what I can. What I share is valuable. Same for you. Don't know what customer you are refering to....Ray just wants me to give him some info. He does not want to buy an amp from me. Sweet dreams to you, too!
Ric Ric Ric..... the wicked never rest. 🙂
I don't know, the mention of secrets from a commercial guy on a DIY forum gets my hair up on end, you understand? Nothing personal.
If there is anything secret... don't mention it at all. Just my obnoxious view. Personally, it makes me feel like not sharing anything anymore, would it not be sad if we all kept our "secrets", what would we be left with, but useless information to waste our time and money with?
My transformer has no steel plates and as far as bolts go it's a virgin. When the time comes for me to add a bolt, should I find it has changed the sound in some way I'll be sure credit you for that particular finding. I don't expect that it should, but I'm willing to keep an open mind about it, seeing that the flux will be crossing it. No doubt the tie wraps would create less heat than a bolt would, and radiate less. I don't think tie wraps are the best solution, but it's something to run with.
As far as the diode bridge, it has an aluminum plate heatsink, seems silly to worry about the screws. I can't dream of any physical reason why that should matter. Do you?
All the same, you have to admit these are old voodoo myths nothing too new to them.
Same with skinning the caps... BTW, I don't believe it, but I
"will" try that, one day, just for ***** and giggles.
I've researched it already and am not sold on the idea. Should it make a difference I'll research it further though. I'll have to be really bored that day!
In closing, I have found the ultimate front end configuration for the UCD, and it's a secret, but I'll sell it to you if you buy from me.
You know.... you're right, that was fun, in a sick way.
Cheers,
Chris
I don't know, the mention of secrets from a commercial guy on a DIY forum gets my hair up on end, you understand? Nothing personal.
If there is anything secret... don't mention it at all. Just my obnoxious view. Personally, it makes me feel like not sharing anything anymore, would it not be sad if we all kept our "secrets", what would we be left with, but useless information to waste our time and money with?
My transformer has no steel plates and as far as bolts go it's a virgin. When the time comes for me to add a bolt, should I find it has changed the sound in some way I'll be sure credit you for that particular finding. I don't expect that it should, but I'm willing to keep an open mind about it, seeing that the flux will be crossing it. No doubt the tie wraps would create less heat than a bolt would, and radiate less. I don't think tie wraps are the best solution, but it's something to run with.
As far as the diode bridge, it has an aluminum plate heatsink, seems silly to worry about the screws. I can't dream of any physical reason why that should matter. Do you?
All the same, you have to admit these are old voodoo myths nothing too new to them.
Same with skinning the caps... BTW, I don't believe it, but I
"will" try that, one day, just for ***** and giggles.
I've researched it already and am not sold on the idea. Should it make a difference I'll research it further though. I'll have to be really bored that day!
In closing, I have found the ultimate front end configuration for the UCD, and it's a secret, but I'll sell it to you if you buy from me.
You know.... you're right, that was fun, in a sick way.
Cheers,
Chris
Hi Rick and Chris,
Well, Rick, with that attitude, your're right. You might however be surprised.
I think. The frontend of your amp, if it's a secret, well, ok. I know some others who too are working or already have a product on the market, and won't discuss their circuit topology either. I'll respect that. However, I did ask about the solder used. If that's such a secret, I probably, if I were you, wouldn't have mentioned it. What do you suggest to replace the steel screws with? In both cases, I'm sure DIYers everywhere would honestly like to know what is the best solder out there to use.
Gentlemen, I won't hijack this thread any further. You, Rick, have given us some ideas to try. Did you do anything with the .680N output cap, or leave that alone?
Ray
Well, Rick, with that attitude, your're right. You might however be surprised.
I think. The frontend of your amp, if it's a secret, well, ok. I know some others who too are working or already have a product on the market, and won't discuss their circuit topology either. I'll respect that. However, I did ask about the solder used. If that's such a secret, I probably, if I were you, wouldn't have mentioned it. What do you suggest to replace the steel screws with? In both cases, I'm sure DIYers everywhere would honestly like to know what is the best solder out there to use.
Gentlemen, I won't hijack this thread any further. You, Rick, have given us some ideas to try. Did you do anything with the .680N output cap, or leave that alone?
Ray
Ray, "the right solder to use" is objectively debatable.
I'm using Cardas Quad Eutectic, flows nice, strong connections, not too expensive. I do like working with it.
I can't say it does anything for the sound one way or the other, but I can recommend it.
I'm using Cardas Quad Eutectic, flows nice, strong connections, not too expensive. I do like working with it.
I can't say it does anything for the sound one way or the other, but I can recommend it.
Hi Chris,
Thanks for the info. At least your solder that you use is not a secret. Thanks for the info.
Ray
Thanks for the info. At least your solder that you use is not a secret. Thanks for the info.
Ray
ray bronk said:
Well, what I didn't tell you Ray, is the ritual dance that I do with it naked under a full moon prior to use.
Have to keep a few things to myself, you know?
Hi Chris,
Oh Darn, and I hope you didn't have the soldering iron in hand. That could be dangerous.
Ray
Oh Darn, and I hope you didn't have the soldering iron in hand. That could be dangerous.
Ray
Hi Mike: 🙂
Very nice from you.
I would love to have Rubicon ZL caps because I found them dynamic (punchy) and neutral (used on DAC's PS).
Oh! 😱 You got me confused. So is it good or bad to have low ESR caps as module's PS caps? Do we have to get a scope and change the inductor also?
Caps' sound: it has being mentioned several times that higher VDC or wider diameter caps (the same?) sound better. I tend to agree, IME. So, I would pick 100VDC/ 18mm caps for UCD400.
I am autocensured about my other cap tweaks 🤐
Greetings.
Mauricio
Very nice from you.
I would love to have Rubicon ZL caps because I found them dynamic (punchy) and neutral (used on DAC's PS).
Oh! 😱 You got me confused. So is it good or bad to have low ESR caps as module's PS caps? Do we have to get a scope and change the inductor also?
Caps' sound: it has being mentioned several times that higher VDC or wider diameter caps (the same?) sound better. I tend to agree, IME. So, I would pick 100VDC/ 18mm caps for UCD400.
I am autocensured about my other cap tweaks 🤐
Greetings.
Mauricio
ray bronk said:
I recently was asked by a customer to use his solder in a DAC. He supplied me with Marigo fusion solder, I used Kester SN63PB37 for other DAC (both were eaxactly the same, built at the same time).
When I compared sound signature of both DACs, I was under impression that Marigo solder was very manipulative in a way that it adds special effects to the sound which are not actually very natural. I would not use Marigo again
classd4sure said:
I also sometimes use Cardas solder, but it's far from flowing nice, comparing to Kester "44" rosin core. I yet need to try how Cardas affects the sonic signature. I'm building another DAC this week, so I should know more pretty soon.
Will look forward to it. Their solder requires a higher temp and solidifies very quickly. Sometimes that's a good thing. For big sloppy P2P type joints it's hard to beat I think. For little SOIC's and the sort, I think I need a more specialized iron to be able to say, I also assume some added flux which I admit to not using would go a long way with helping it flow. For the price I paid for it at parts connexion, I'm pretty content with it.
I have redone the fast on tabs on the UCD with it, mostly for improved strength, I can't honestly say it changed the signature in the least, though that's far from an A/B test.
Regards,
Chris
I have redone the fast on tabs on the UCD with it, mostly for improved strength, I can't honestly say it changed the signature in the least, though that's far from an A/B test.
Regards,
Chris
Re: some secrets are not secrets
Chris,
No doubt there is a CLC in any UcD amp implementation.
I agree it would be nice to play with this. Its seems obvios why bruno put it in, as it does do an excellent job of keeping switching frequency currents from circulating and radiating from the supply, something that you likely must do to have a commercial product.
Dam Gertjan, good guess.
I just measured the resonance of one ferrite bead and a 820uF 16V FC (it was laying around)
It was not a very hard null, so it was kind of a hack guess.
I don't often come up with accuracy to 4 signficant digits, but a resonance of 820uF and one ferrite bead came out to be 5.56kHz, or 1.000E-6. Kind of wierd aside!
So, the inductance on the UcD400 is actually 1/3rd of that since it is three in parallel.
So the UcD400 inductance in the supply is 330nH!
The stock resonance is 12.8kHz (That would be a dip!)
Bigger caps raises the Q.
Lower ESR raises the Q ( of depth of the dip)
I think that's not perhaps as important as the anti-resonance stuff that is set by the parasitics like ESL ESR and the 100nF, bypass at the fets. Note, there is a shunt R of 5m0 in series with that.
As I've said before, I see know way that the actually impedance of the bypass cap can have any direct affect at the bass frequecies. 470uF has a impedance of 3.4 ohms at 100Hz where as the supply mains have an impedance an order of magnetude less. For sure ESR shouldn't matter at 100Hz as its orders of magnetude less.
btw, I'm not saying that more on board cap doesn't have sonic differences in the bass.
I'm wondering if its got more to do with anti-resonance stuff, and the spikes distortion on the open loop response of the amp.
I believe open loop response is very important when it comes to how an amp sounds although I can't prove it technically besides listening experience. That's one of those, they measure the same but sound different things.
This brings me to another tweak topic. Has anyone played with adding a zobel on the output to compensate for there tweeter and speaker wire inductance at LC resonance?
Mike
Hope this helps.
Mike
ghemink said:
ghemink said:
classd4sure said:
ghemink said:
Ric Schultz said:
Chris,
No doubt there is a CLC in any UcD amp implementation.
I agree it would be nice to play with this. Its seems obvios why bruno put it in, as it does do an excellent job of keeping switching frequency currents from circulating and radiating from the supply, something that you likely must do to have a commercial product.
Dam Gertjan, good guess.
I just measured the resonance of one ferrite bead and a 820uF 16V FC (it was laying around)
It was not a very hard null, so it was kind of a hack guess.
I don't often come up with accuracy to 4 signficant digits, but a resonance of 820uF and one ferrite bead came out to be 5.56kHz, or 1.000E-6. Kind of wierd aside!
So, the inductance on the UcD400 is actually 1/3rd of that since it is three in parallel.
So the UcD400 inductance in the supply is 330nH!
The stock resonance is 12.8kHz (That would be a dip!)
Bigger caps raises the Q.
Lower ESR raises the Q ( of depth of the dip)
I think that's not perhaps as important as the anti-resonance stuff that is set by the parasitics like ESL ESR and the 100nF, bypass at the fets. Note, there is a shunt R of 5m0 in series with that.
As I've said before, I see know way that the actually impedance of the bypass cap can have any direct affect at the bass frequecies. 470uF has a impedance of 3.4 ohms at 100Hz where as the supply mains have an impedance an order of magnetude less. For sure ESR shouldn't matter at 100Hz as its orders of magnetude less.
btw, I'm not saying that more on board cap doesn't have sonic differences in the bass.
I'm wondering if its got more to do with anti-resonance stuff, and the spikes distortion on the open loop response of the amp.
I believe open loop response is very important when it comes to how an amp sounds although I can't prove it technically besides listening experience. That's one of those, they measure the same but sound different things.
This brings me to another tweak topic. Has anyone played with adding a zobel on the output to compensate for there tweeter and speaker wire inductance at LC resonance?
Mike
Hope this helps.
Mike
Hi,
I've done some minor experimenting just last night. I found it brought on a significant enough change for the better, and I'm certainly going to explore it further.
It's probably the cheapest tweak I've done to the module yet, and the improvement is a significant one, kind of thing commercial guys eat up.
When I finish my amp I'd like to put what I've learnt to use and sell as few or as many as I can. Really, it should be kept secret.
Hm, what fun.
In actual fact, it's far from a new invention and obvious enough, I'm just going to give a gentle push for others to go for it as well, in the true DIY spirite of the sharing of quality information so that we may all benifit without having to resort to the voodoo dark side. Stuff that makes sense and actually does something other than stimulate the placebo effect.
I trust someone will put it to use, and get some level of enjoyment out of it. Additionally, I'll be tickled to know, it's just one less "secret".
I'm only going to be cryptic enough to promote your own experimentation, as I dont' claim to have the final recipe for perfection yet, and only know what my ear is telling me. You're not going to have to make a paypal deposit to know. I hope others in turn are less commercial and more open.
Off my soapbox.
Here it is, please, by all means, _do_ junk the op amp bypass caps, tantalum is a dream, careful, they're directional, some "engineers" don't know this.
That said, the hollowness that the FC 820uF caps I used brought on, pretty gone. The sound is no longer comming from the speaker, it's much more natural, less colored, more life like. I've only done one module so far. I will do the other tonight. I fully expect the holographic 3D experience to have returned once complete, and will report those findings as well.
I'll leave it to someone else to come up with the secret values, order and placement, and just say, it's a big mistake not to mess with.
Chris
I've done some minor experimenting just last night. I found it brought on a significant enough change for the better, and I'm certainly going to explore it further.
It's probably the cheapest tweak I've done to the module yet, and the improvement is a significant one, kind of thing commercial guys eat up.
When I finish my amp I'd like to put what I've learnt to use and sell as few or as many as I can. Really, it should be kept secret.
Hm, what fun.
In actual fact, it's far from a new invention and obvious enough, I'm just going to give a gentle push for others to go for it as well, in the true DIY spirite of the sharing of quality information so that we may all benifit without having to resort to the voodoo dark side. Stuff that makes sense and actually does something other than stimulate the placebo effect.
I trust someone will put it to use, and get some level of enjoyment out of it. Additionally, I'll be tickled to know, it's just one less "secret".
I'm only going to be cryptic enough to promote your own experimentation, as I dont' claim to have the final recipe for perfection yet, and only know what my ear is telling me. You're not going to have to make a paypal deposit to know. I hope others in turn are less commercial and more open.
Off my soapbox.
Here it is, please, by all means, _do_ junk the op amp bypass caps, tantalum is a dream, careful, they're directional, some "engineers" don't know this.
That said, the hollowness that the FC 820uF caps I used brought on, pretty gone. The sound is no longer comming from the speaker, it's much more natural, less colored, more life like. I've only done one module so far. I will do the other tonight. I fully expect the holographic 3D experience to have returned once complete, and will report those findings as well.
I'll leave it to someone else to come up with the secret values, order and placement, and just say, it's a big mistake not to mess with.
Chris
Re: Re: some secrets are not secrets
Mike,
Just might be simpler than all that. Tau Tau
Portlandmike said:
Mike,
Just might be simpler than all that. Tau Tau
Solder:
Cardas Euthectic is clear sounding but difficult to use for a beginner, like my humble self, due to flow, as commented.
Now I use Welborne Lab's solder (2%Ag) wich sounds good, flows better, is cheaper and also smells very good
Dear Mike:
Maybe you know what is the function of the trimmer resistor pot?
May some modules come with this R unsettled/unoptimized?
Dear Chris:
Thanks.
M
Cardas Euthectic is clear sounding but difficult to use for a beginner, like my humble self, due to flow, as commented.
Now I use Welborne Lab's solder (2%Ag) wich sounds good, flows better, is cheaper and also smells very good
Dear Mike:
Maybe you know what is the function of the trimmer resistor pot?
May some modules come with this R unsettled/unoptimized?
Dear Chris:
In english, please 😀 Do you mean, swap or bypass those for something good...I was waiting for implementing separate PS 🙁
Thanks.
M
maxlorenz said:Solder:
Cardas Euthectic is clear sounding but difficult to use for a beginner, like my humble self, due to flow, as commented.
Now I use Welborne Lab's solder (2%Ag) wich sounds good, flows better, is cheaper and also smells very good
Dear Mike:
Maybe you know what is the function of the trimmer resistor pot?
May some modules come with this R unsettled/unoptimized?
Dear Chris:
In english, please 😀 Do you mean, swap or bypass those for something good...I was waiting for implementing separate PS 🙁
Thanks.
M
I took out what was there (something SMT ceramic) and replaced with a tantalum cap, of a particular value that I'm not going to say 🙂 That's not because it's secret, but because it's best determined for yourself.
It's a damn cheap tweak to do until you get an aux supply, and when you do, you'll still want to compensate for wire parasitics right at the pin (shhhhh $$$).
Anyway, big gains to be had here.
You win! I'm knocked out
Chris,
You seem to think this is some kind of verbal boxing match....the more you can belittle me with your jabs the more you will win. Well you have thrown lots of jabs and have won all the rounds. However, when you point a finger at someone, there are three others pointing back at yourself.....do you really feel so insecure that you have to keep attacking?...really feel sorry for you. You are KING here....long live the new crowned king of belittlement. I hope your reign will be short and you will step down into the light of being a humble servant and praiser of all.
"Peace I ask of thee Oh River, Peace, Peace, Peace
When I learn to live serenely, all cares cease."
Chris,
You seem to think this is some kind of verbal boxing match....the more you can belittle me with your jabs the more you will win. Well you have thrown lots of jabs and have won all the rounds. However, when you point a finger at someone, there are three others pointing back at yourself.....do you really feel so insecure that you have to keep attacking?...really feel sorry for you. You are KING here....long live the new crowned king of belittlement. I hope your reign will be short and you will step down into the light of being a humble servant and praiser of all.
"Peace I ask of thee Oh River, Peace, Peace, Peace
When I learn to live serenely, all cares cease."
Chris,
Looks very risky to me to put some caps on the supply lines of the opamp. To big a surge will destroy the 2 power transistors and than you have the full supply(60V) on the opamps. I mean, there is hardly any protection for these. If you have separate supplies...than OK.
Looks very risky to me to put some caps on the supply lines of the opamp. To big a surge will destroy the 2 power transistors and than you have the full supply(60V) on the opamps. I mean, there is hardly any protection for these. If you have separate supplies...than OK.
You lots beem busy on here🙂
Ok, I've never used the ZL's in any amps only in my cdp, out of all the types I've tried including ZA's, Blackgates, FC's etc to my ears the ZL's was the best for me, they seemed to add the least amount of colouration
BTW removing the jackets does actually make an audible difference, I did laugh when I first read about skinning the caps but tried it anyway to compare and was more than surprised with the result😱
I've ordered a little Amp6 and am going to compare various caps for the supply decoupling on the TA2020, the voltage needed is only low so it gives me chance to try out the ZL's easy.
I'm going to try FC's,FM's,BG N and FK,Silmic,Cerafine,BC136 and ZA's
(I already have most of these caps spare in the needed value)
I know the Amp6 is totaly different to the UCD but I'm hoping it will give me an idea how these caps sound in an amp
Ok, I've never used the ZL's in any amps only in my cdp, out of all the types I've tried including ZA's, Blackgates, FC's etc to my ears the ZL's was the best for me, they seemed to add the least amount of colouration
BTW removing the jackets does actually make an audible difference, I did laugh when I first read about skinning the caps but tried it anyway to compare and was more than surprised with the result😱
I've ordered a little Amp6 and am going to compare various caps for the supply decoupling on the TA2020, the voltage needed is only low so it gives me chance to try out the ZL's easy.
I'm going to try FC's,FM's,BG N and FK,Silmic,Cerafine,BC136 and ZA's
(I already have most of these caps spare in the needed value)
I know the Amp6 is totaly different to the UCD but I'm hoping it will give me an idea how these caps sound in an amp
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