LE MONSTRE.
Hi,
He does and is now editor in chief of the French audio magazine "La Nouvelle" revue du son.
I very much doubt he will either have the time or inclination to explain the design choices.
All the techniques that were incorporated are very well documented in the isssues of the now defunct "L'Audiophile" magazine.
The development of the " Le Monstre" amp were a team effort not just Jean Hiraga on his own.
Cheers,
Hi,
He does and is now editor in chief of the French audio magazine "La Nouvelle" revue du son.
I very much doubt he will either have the time or inclination to explain the design choices.
All the techniques that were incorporated are very well documented in the isssues of the now defunct "L'Audiophile" magazine.
The development of the " Le Monstre" amp were a team effort not just Jean Hiraga on his own.
Cheers,
hiraga
I built both the Hiraga class-A and the Monstre, several of each of them, and experimented a lot with using the offical parts from Paris and using common stuff. Besides that I heard some hand-built and factory built copies of them (not the Monstre, was not for sale in shops ever).
I wrote an article about them somewhere around 1998 in a dutch audio-journal.
My conclusions at that time:
- both are very fine and exceptional amplifers
- The Hiraga is less critical and sound slightly warmer than the Monstre
- The Hiraga class A can be built using quite normal parts and a cheaper power supply and still sounds very good (of course you can hear differences with the original parts though)
- The Monstre is a different story, I heart it very good sounding but also quite bad, the differences could be heart within one specific amplifier over time also
- Differences in sound did not alway correlate with price of the parts used, I also used car batteries and found the differences not that big. My advice is: just try different transistors and capacitiors (within reason of course, but you can try 3055 and 2955, it will work allright) and listen for yourself. We all know that Hiraga is a very special designer who knew what he did very well but who also had a great feeling for mystification, be your own judge, it is probable that you can better the original
- And no: both Hiraga's do not surpass or equal a very good tube amplifier on subjective grounds, sorry, they can come close to say a standard push-pull el84 amplifier (with the exception of the painstaking clarity and see-through of the Monstre, on some occasions).
rmgvs
I built both the Hiraga class-A and the Monstre, several of each of them, and experimented a lot with using the offical parts from Paris and using common stuff. Besides that I heard some hand-built and factory built copies of them (not the Monstre, was not for sale in shops ever).
I wrote an article about them somewhere around 1998 in a dutch audio-journal.
My conclusions at that time:
- both are very fine and exceptional amplifers
- The Hiraga is less critical and sound slightly warmer than the Monstre
- The Hiraga class A can be built using quite normal parts and a cheaper power supply and still sounds very good (of course you can hear differences with the original parts though)
- The Monstre is a different story, I heart it very good sounding but also quite bad, the differences could be heart within one specific amplifier over time also
- Differences in sound did not alway correlate with price of the parts used, I also used car batteries and found the differences not that big. My advice is: just try different transistors and capacitiors (within reason of course, but you can try 3055 and 2955, it will work allright) and listen for yourself. We all know that Hiraga is a very special designer who knew what he did very well but who also had a great feeling for mystification, be your own judge, it is probable that you can better the original
- And no: both Hiraga's do not surpass or equal a very good tube amplifier on subjective grounds, sorry, they can come close to say a standard push-pull el84 amplifier (with the exception of the painstaking clarity and see-through of the Monstre, on some occasions).
rmgvs
Monstre
Just out of curiosity I did a Spice model for the Monstre. The design is super critical of parts selection and even bias groups and Hfe selection for correct operation. THE DESIGN HAS VERY POOR PHASE MARGIN. Without the ability to make some very good high frequency measurements and without careful selection of parts (including measuring the Hfe), the chances of build an amplifier instead of a power oscillator are slim to none. The thing looks to be very sensitive to load impedance including speaker cable capacitance.
I would attribute getting the design to work more as evidence of dumb luck than skillful design. Turning the publishing the design for others to try to build could be described as irresponsible. Designs that twitchy on parts selection and excruciating demands on layout and speaker loads hardly strikes me as the work of "a very special designer" but more the work of a very special sadist.
When comparing this "design" to the forgiving and stable design projects by Nelson Pass, the title of very special designer goes to Mr. Pass. Nelson also does not practice mystification but provides theory, measurements, and practical advice. It makes me appreciate his efforts even more when contrasted with Mr. Hiraga's designs.
'The development of the " Le Monstre" amp were a team effort not just Jean Hiraga on his own'
Yes, and as Mark Twain said, "a camel is a horse designed by a commitee."
Just out of curiosity I did a Spice model for the Monstre. The design is super critical of parts selection and even bias groups and Hfe selection for correct operation. THE DESIGN HAS VERY POOR PHASE MARGIN. Without the ability to make some very good high frequency measurements and without careful selection of parts (including measuring the Hfe), the chances of build an amplifier instead of a power oscillator are slim to none. The thing looks to be very sensitive to load impedance including speaker cable capacitance.
I would attribute getting the design to work more as evidence of dumb luck than skillful design. Turning the publishing the design for others to try to build could be described as irresponsible. Designs that twitchy on parts selection and excruciating demands on layout and speaker loads hardly strikes me as the work of "a very special designer" but more the work of a very special sadist.
When comparing this "design" to the forgiving and stable design projects by Nelson Pass, the title of very special designer goes to Mr. Pass. Nelson also does not practice mystification but provides theory, measurements, and practical advice. It makes me appreciate his efforts even more when contrasted with Mr. Hiraga's designs.
'The development of the " Le Monstre" amp were a team effort not just Jean Hiraga on his own'
Yes, and as Mark Twain said, "a camel is a horse designed by a commitee."
Re: Monstre
Salut to that! The circuit was a real biatch to get to work, I always had the feeling that it was hacked through somohow, masking the complete lack of a clue in circuit design with a somehow super human hearing sense. It probably sounded best when it wasn't oscillating.
I am thankful you exist Fred!
Fred Dieckmann said:
Salut to that! The circuit was a real biatch to get to work, I always had the feeling that it was hacked through somohow, masking the complete lack of a clue in circuit design with a somehow super human hearing sense. It probably sounded best when it wasn't oscillating.
I am thankful you exist Fred!
HIRAGA.
Hi,
Obviously you guys never read the articles.
This "Le Monstre" amp was meant as a study, a challenge if you like.
Nobody was encouraged to just build it, in fact by the time it was published, they already ran out of original components.
I certainly would not encourage anyone to build it before doing an in depth study of the design and delving deep into the articles as published in "L'Audiophile".
As for mystification, get real please.
The man is not seeking that at all, he just wants his privacy and wants to do his job.
If anything, he's a journalist with a background in electronics and he sure was ahead of his time realising the importance of passive and active components, be that in tubebased or semi-conductor based designs.
It surely deserves some credit when the work by him and his co-workers is still discussed more than twenty years after publication.
Sorry for the rant,
Hi,
Obviously you guys never read the articles.
This "Le Monstre" amp was meant as a study, a challenge if you like.
Nobody was encouraged to just build it, in fact by the time it was published, they already ran out of original components.
I certainly would not encourage anyone to build it before doing an in depth study of the design and delving deep into the articles as published in "L'Audiophile".
As for mystification, get real please.
The man is not seeking that at all, he just wants his privacy and wants to do his job.
If anything, he's a journalist with a background in electronics and he sure was ahead of his time realising the importance of passive and active components, be that in tubebased or semi-conductor based designs.
It surely deserves some credit when the work by him and his co-workers is still discussed more than twenty years after publication.
Sorry for the rant,
Fred: I know one audio designer who deliberately designs his amplifiers to have some overshoot and ringing, because he prefers the sound this way. This person is a former Tektronix engineer, and he definitely knows how to stabilize an amplifier so that overshoot is well-damped and it settles quickly. Nonetheless, he adjusts his amplifiers so that on square waves there is clear overshoot and a couple of cycles of ringing. Claims that this adds more air and a greater sense of detail.
Makes life interesting when you try to work with someone like this...
regards, jonathan carr
Makes life interesting when you try to work with someone like this...
regards, jonathan carr
I knew a reprisal from the franco-nipponic alliance was going to happen.
What do you expect to happen when one publishes an article on a premiere magazine with claim of outstanding sound, esoteric components and a sprikles the whole thing with a general aura of mysticism?
PS Fred you know that it's just one of those 'love to hate' kind of arrangements.
What do you expect to happen when one publishes an article on a premiere magazine with claim of outstanding sound, esoteric components and a sprikles the whole thing with a general aura of mysticism?
PS Fred you know that it's just one of those 'love to hate' kind of arrangements.
The Tektronix engineer and me....
This overshoot and ringing is because the square wave signal generator as a rise time must faster that any audio signal...so limiting the bandwith for good square wave reponse...can slow the amp only for the sake of good square waves photos...
One more case where measures and sound quality are not in step!!
Me too!!!
This overshoot and ringing is because the square wave signal generator as a rise time must faster that any audio signal...so limiting the bandwith for good square wave reponse...can slow the amp only for the sake of good square waves photos...
One more case where measures and sound quality are not in step!!
Obviously you guys never read the articles
On the contrary I read them very closely (a translation) and studied the transistor data sheets close enough to know why the Hfe values were picked in the output transistors to put the driver transistors at the bias points for best Ft. I also tweaked my JFET transistor models for the specified yellow bias groups. I went into the analysis with no preconceived ideas in order to see what might make this design so special. Maginal design is still marginal design no matter what the reputation of the designer. I would even speculate that I did even closer technical analysis than the designer/s.
On the contrary I read them very closely (a translation) and studied the transistor data sheets close enough to know why the Hfe values were picked in the output transistors to put the driver transistors at the bias points for best Ft. I also tweaked my JFET transistor models for the specified yellow bias groups. I went into the analysis with no preconceived ideas in order to see what might make this design so special. Maginal design is still marginal design no matter what the reputation of the designer. I would even speculate that I did even closer technical analysis than the designer/s.
MONSTERS.
Hi,
Easy enough to do so many years later...
Jean Hiraga never claimed to be "the designer' of this amp...
No offense, but I feel you're missing the crux of the matter.
Credit where credit due please.
My feeling is that most of what is being discussed on the forum here regarding passive components, active components is just about 20 years behind of what the Japanese, European community knows already thanks to Jean Hiraga.
Let me put it this way, thanks to the team of "L'Audiophile" most of us learned how to set up our system, pay attention to detail and everything else long before TAS and Stereophile woke up to the theme.
Not crediting these people would be a major historical disgrace.
As a matter of fact I see a lot of people borrowing their ideas, yourself included Mr.Fred.
I'm certainly thankful for what they thought me,
Hi,
Easy enough to do so many years later...
Jean Hiraga never claimed to be "the designer' of this amp...
No offense, but I feel you're missing the crux of the matter.
Credit where credit due please.
My feeling is that most of what is being discussed on the forum here regarding passive components, active components is just about 20 years behind of what the Japanese, European community knows already thanks to Jean Hiraga.
Let me put it this way, thanks to the team of "L'Audiophile" most of us learned how to set up our system, pay attention to detail and everything else long before TAS and Stereophile woke up to the theme.
Not crediting these people would be a major historical disgrace.
As a matter of fact I see a lot of people borrowing their ideas, yourself included Mr.Fred.
I'm certainly thankful for what they thought me,
Re: The Tektronix engineer and me....
What? i do not understand your explantion of wanting overshoot and ringing.
Tube_Dude said:
Me too!!!
This overshoot and ringing is because the square wave signal generator as a rise time must faster that any audio signal...so limiting the bandwith for good square wave reponse...can slow the amp only for the sake of good square waves photos...
One more case where measures and sound quality are not in step!!
What? i do not understand your explantion of wanting overshoot and ringing.
Stop!!
Difficult to disagree with any of you!
Too many designs, not sufficient understanding, and little or no understanding of issues of philosophy. Audio design is not just engineering, it's art........
Cheers,
Hugh
www.aksaonline.com
Difficult to disagree with any of you!
Too many designs, not sufficient understanding, and little or no understanding of issues of philosophy. Audio design is not just engineering, it's art........
Cheers,
Hugh
www.aksaonline.com
SE Monster
Hello!
I have a strange, a bit stupid question!
Is it possible to create a SE version from the original PP Hiraga Class A (or may be from The Monster) as for example the JE Labs made from the Williamson PP tube amp? ( it could be not the best comparison.....)
I would like to hear the diffrence between the 2 operations and because I am an enthusiast of the SE amps.
Thanks!
P.S.: I built the Monster and it is a realy good amp.......
Hello!
I have a strange, a bit stupid question!
Is it possible to create a SE version from the original PP Hiraga Class A (or may be from The Monster) as for example the JE Labs made from the Williamson PP tube amp? ( it could be not the best comparison.....)
I would like to hear the diffrence between the 2 operations and because I am an enthusiast of the SE amps.
Thanks!
P.S.: I built the Monster and it is a realy good amp.......
Fred Dieckmann
This may have been his intention in that substituting components would have highlighted the audable qualities of the passive components. Still, that's only if we accept his intention as noble. It is possible to envision him with a pernicious snicker after setting it loose on the general public as a project.
Hi,
Seems to me alot got lost in the translation as it happened to Jocko's bolognese sauce:
Le Monstre has got nothing to do whatsoever whith whatever Jean Hiraga designed...It was a bleeding STAX design.
Learn some languages or go back to your cages, please, please, please.
In order of preference; French, Japanese and than mine.
After that come back and talk about something you REALLY know about.
Thank you,
Seems to me alot got lost in the translation as it happened to Jocko's bolognese sauce:
Le Monstre has got nothing to do whatsoever whith whatever Jean Hiraga designed...It was a bleeding STAX design.
Learn some languages or go back to your cages, please, please, please.
In order of preference; French, Japanese and than mine.
After that come back and talk about something you REALLY know about.
Thank you,
learn ... or simply click the babelfish
Amplificateurs classe A 8 watts « Le monstre »
Jean Hiraga (l’Audiophile No. 27)
In October 1979, within the framework of the Audio-Fair of Tokyo, an exhibitor presented an enormous apparatus, a prototype of amplifier, which was unfortunately never born . Considering its size, its weight, its transformer of 1 200 VA, its supplies with shunt regulation for each stage, it lookked like a very powerful amplifier. 2 X 300 Watts? 2 X 500 Watts? Moreover, this prototype was baptized "The Monster", a well deserved name. But there was something of very unusual. It was the sign placed in front of the "Monster", which indicated "monaural amplifyer, nominal output power 8 Watts, pure class A". What to satisfy the audiophiles passion to Watt of very high quality, "hyper-powerful" Watt. Already, since 1958, the English firm Quad showed that 15 Watts (Quad II) were enough to drive the famous ESL loudspeaker, whose output did not exceed 87 dB/Watt. Here also, exponent was the firm _Stax Industries Co Ltd_, famous for the quality of its loudspeakers and its electrostatic headphones and also of its amplifiers. With this prototype, Stax proved that hyper-powerful “Watt", the "hyper-transparency" Watt, of a quality exceeding the majority of the best achievements with tubes, existed. However, as regards tube amplifiers, that can be said with full knowledge of the facts.
Amplificateurs classe A 8 watts « Le monstre »
Jean Hiraga (l’Audiophile No. 27)
In October 1979, within the framework of the Audio-Fair of Tokyo, an exhibitor presented an enormous apparatus, a prototype of amplifier, which was unfortunately never born . Considering its size, its weight, its transformer of 1 200 VA, its supplies with shunt regulation for each stage, it lookked like a very powerful amplifier. 2 X 300 Watts? 2 X 500 Watts? Moreover, this prototype was baptized "The Monster", a well deserved name. But there was something of very unusual. It was the sign placed in front of the "Monster", which indicated "monaural amplifyer, nominal output power 8 Watts, pure class A". What to satisfy the audiophiles passion to Watt of very high quality, "hyper-powerful" Watt. Already, since 1958, the English firm Quad showed that 15 Watts (Quad II) were enough to drive the famous ESL loudspeaker, whose output did not exceed 87 dB/Watt. Here also, exponent was the firm _Stax Industries Co Ltd_, famous for the quality of its loudspeakers and its electrostatic headphones and also of its amplifiers. With this prototype, Stax proved that hyper-powerful “Watt", the "hyper-transparency" Watt, of a quality exceeding the majority of the best achievements with tubes, existed. However, as regards tube amplifiers, that can be said with full knowledge of the facts.
Hi,
Thank you very much Dimitri...seems Babelfish isn't too bad after all...
From that, ladies and gents the SE triode fashion evolved and guess what....it bounced back into transistor design.
I'll leave the final judgement to your fine perception and oh so clouded misconceptions.
Once again, thanks to Dimitri,
Thank you very much Dimitri...seems Babelfish isn't too bad after all...
From that, ladies and gents the SE triode fashion evolved and guess what....it bounced back into transistor design.
I'll leave the final judgement to your fine perception and oh so clouded misconceptions.
Once again, thanks to Dimitri,
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