I'm looking for a minimum compromise pro audio horn tweeter to be used over 3k. This is for a 3 way PA system with 15" LF and 6" cone mid. It needs to be hifi like in sound and fairly light weight mainly for acoustic music.
Current considerations are the Celestion CDX1-1730 on an elliptical 60 x 50 WG. This one has the nicest,.non horn like sound I've heard so far. The acoustic center is however too far back compared to the mid, so passive filters won't work well.
Runners up are the small 1" BMS and PRV D260MY ring radiator drivers. I dont like AMTs due to their narrow vertical dispersion and their rougher sound down lower (at least the ones I've heard so far).
Any thoughts?
Current considerations are the Celestion CDX1-1730 on an elliptical 60 x 50 WG. This one has the nicest,.non horn like sound I've heard so far. The acoustic center is however too far back compared to the mid, so passive filters won't work well.
Runners up are the small 1" BMS and PRV D260MY ring radiator drivers. I dont like AMTs due to their narrow vertical dispersion and their rougher sound down lower (at least the ones I've heard so far).
Any thoughts?
Beyma TPL 150 will EASILY handle a 3k cross and i wouldn't concern myself with vertical dispersion on this one.......it's 20/20 and unless your audiences are a mixture of dwarfs and giants, you should be just fine. It ain't cheap but you really get what you pay for.
If you're dead set on compression drivers.....this horn is excellent
https://www.parts-express.com/Celestion-H1-7050-1-Exponential-Horn-2-Bolt-294-2942?quantity=1
Acoustic offset is only 2" so no issues with your Mid driver
If you're dead set on compression drivers.....this horn is excellent
https://www.parts-express.com/Celestion-H1-7050-1-Exponential-Horn-2-Bolt-294-2942?quantity=1
Acoustic offset is only 2" so no issues with your Mid driver
https://eminence.com/products/n151m_8#specifications
I’ve used them in a couple builds, a little EQ and they sound quite realistic. Takes a couple hours of thrashing to break in.
Excellent on eminence SST1 and SEOS 10……about to try on the eminence H290b.
I’ve used them in a couple builds, a little EQ and they sound quite realistic. Takes a couple hours of thrashing to break in.
Excellent on eminence SST1 and SEOS 10……about to try on the eminence H290b.
Thanks guys.
@mayhem13 That's the WG I wanted to use with the CDX1-1430, as it has very low THD in this combo. Problem is everyone is out of stock on the WG.
@mountainman bob That's a good driver and I've used it with larger WGs. I may have to look at that one a little closer.
@mayhem13 That's the WG I wanted to use with the CDX1-1430, as it has very low THD in this combo. Problem is everyone is out of stock on the WG.
@mountainman bob That's a good driver and I've used it with larger WGs. I may have to look at that one a little closer.
Here‘s the review with it on the SST1 horn……..this combo sounds great on a good acoustic recording, IDK if its the higher 2nd order response but it sounds most pleasant (even at higher volumes) while still holding on to realism. Only problem I had with the SST1 was when trying to cross it to 10” mid/woof it didn’t play nice at my 1500hz 12db XO where the SEOS10 did…….SST1 sounded cleaner up top and @ 3k should be dang near perfect for your needs, its physically a little wider than the celestian horn but same height……pattern is a 90x40 vs 70x50 (celestian) but the polars are nice.
https://audioxpress.com/article/test-bench-eminence-n151m-8-1-compression-driver
https://audioxpress.com/article/test-bench-eminence-n151m-8-1-compression-driver
My only apprehension with the SST1 is that fact its a diffraction WG. I've heard the B&C ME20, which sounded very good at lower SPLs, but when cranked up, it has that sizzle commonly experienced diffraction WGs.
The reason I like the STH100 is the tractrix profile and lack of diffraction edges. It just beams a bit, but that may be the price to pay for smoother performance.
I've toyed with the idea of running a K tube instead of a WG above 3k. @freddi I know he swears by them for getting extended top end from a 1" CD, but I've never given it a serious thought past a quick listen.
The reason I like the STH100 is the tractrix profile and lack of diffraction edges. It just beams a bit, but that may be the price to pay for smoother performance.
I've toyed with the idea of running a K tube instead of a WG above 3k. @freddi I know he swears by them for getting extended top end from a 1" CD, but I've never given it a serious thought past a quick listen.
Yah in a live setting you'll probably surpass my 90-95 dB @ lp but even 100db is still smooth to me on the symbols....according to your original post you won't be miking any drumsets.
Where these things really shine is acoustic guitar (your intent) but don't let me talk you into anything you'll regret.
I do have a extra set of SST1 and a pair of the F151M (ferrite version) I could send you to try.....would just cost you the return shipping (or if you like them keep for a minimal fee!)
I've always wanted to try the k tube also, maybe one day if I ever get caught up with the stack of unfinished projects I'm buried under!
Where these things really shine is acoustic guitar (your intent) but don't let me talk you into anything you'll regret.
I do have a extra set of SST1 and a pair of the F151M (ferrite version) I could send you to try.....would just cost you the return shipping (or if you like them keep for a minimal fee!)
I've always wanted to try the k tube also, maybe one day if I ever get caught up with the stack of unfinished projects I'm buried under!
I do appreciate the offer. I unfortunately suffer from CDOS - Compression Driver Overabundance Syndrome LOL.
I have some PRV D260MYB which are very similar ring radiator clones of the JBL 2407, like the F151M is. I was going to try printing some KTubes to use with the PRVs. Not sure if that will work running them above 3k 3rd order.
BTW, on a side note, the Celestion CDX1-1430 actually uses ferrofluid, which surprised me being there was no mention of it in the spec sheet. Its still a very good driver with some of the lowest THD above 2.5k I've heard on a small Seos or tractrix WG. The 1430 sounds awful when you first try it fresh out of the box, but a few hrs of play time it mellows out and settles in, sounding really smooth but crisp. Celestion makes some nice drivers, depending on how low you push them. The 1745 is another great one, often used by Martin.
I have some PRV D260MYB which are very similar ring radiator clones of the JBL 2407, like the F151M is. I was going to try printing some KTubes to use with the PRVs. Not sure if that will work running them above 3k 3rd order.
BTW, on a side note, the Celestion CDX1-1430 actually uses ferrofluid, which surprised me being there was no mention of it in the spec sheet. Its still a very good driver with some of the lowest THD above 2.5k I've heard on a small Seos or tractrix WG. The 1430 sounds awful when you first try it fresh out of the box, but a few hrs of play time it mellows out and settles in, sounding really smooth but crisp. Celestion makes some nice drivers, depending on how low you push them. The 1745 is another great one, often used by Martin.
Had a B&C ME20 with RCF 1411 combination longer ago, that I got not so good sound from. Tried Faital STH100 with BMS 4524 then, that gave nice sound and great radiation pattern, usable from 2kHz. Celestion CDX1-1430, CDX1-1745 and BMS4538 have good reputation for HiFi-use. Karlson tube sounds like fun, but has strange radiation pattern that might cause unusual indirect sound you may like or not so...
FWIW I really like the little $50 PRV ring radiator CD on a K-tube - it should sing on a horn - dunno if still in production but Amazon has them
https://prvaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/PRV-Audio-D260My-B-Datasheet.pdf
https://prvaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/PRV-Audio-D260My-B-Datasheet.pdf
The K-tube is a diffraction horn with bizarre dispersion patterns and peaky response.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/3d-printed-k-tube-for-1-compression-drivers.344571/page-2
https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/a2/33/52/7e84065907a786/US3540544.pdf
I still recall hearing a 2" Transylvania Power Company Tube used in a PA back around 1978, first time I'd heard a JBL 2440 used in a mains speaker feeding back at 10kHz, an octave above the SM-58 "presence peak".
Can't find a photo of a 2", but looked pretty much like the 1":
Printed on the mounting flange:"CAUTION-USE ONLY WITH PROFESSIONAL ADVICE"
Consider yourself warned 😉
Art
(I should have clarified that I was recommending the compression driver - not the K-tube for this application)
Re: dangers of the mighty K-tube being used w/o professional assistance - have 5 of the Transylvania Power Company "The Tube" and have survived - other than paralyzed vocal chords - tumors on both kidneys - blood sugar which can hit " near 600"- vision which no longer converges, (look like Jack Elam) "etc" - although those slight ill effects may come from some other source (????)
In their range (~2K5 and up) I think they sound great plus that little cheap PRV ring radiator (said to be based on a JBL product) "should" offer good performance on one's WG or horn of choice. All of my WG (including little Faital) are back at my house which I don't get to see anymore.
A K-tube that size needs no EQ as there's little gain on the bottom plus the top octave's dispersion pattern as presented towards the listener's ears is narrowing.
Re: dangers of the mighty K-tube being used w/o professional assistance - have 5 of the Transylvania Power Company "The Tube" and have survived - other than paralyzed vocal chords - tumors on both kidneys - blood sugar which can hit " near 600"- vision which no longer converges, (look like Jack Elam) "etc" - although those slight ill effects may come from some other source (????)
In their range (~2K5 and up) I think they sound great plus that little cheap PRV ring radiator (said to be based on a JBL product) "should" offer good performance on one's WG or horn of choice. All of my WG (including little Faital) are back at my house which I don't get to see anymore.
A K-tube that size needs no EQ as there's little gain on the bottom plus the top octave's dispersion pattern as presented towards the listener's ears is narrowing.
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I see. Its more about the PRV D260 driver than the ktube. I have a few of the D260s and have used them on the ME20 in a few systems. I think they sound fantastic over 3k, very hifi like. I think they sound better than the 2407 in most ways. Not bad for a $50 driver.
The ktube does have an odd pattern. I don't know if that's useful for PA purposes. I have heard one before and vaguely remembered liking it, but that was a long time ago.
The ktube does have an odd pattern. I don't know if that's useful for PA purposes. I have heard one before and vaguely remembered liking it, but that was a long time ago.
Thanks for the recommendation. I have a pair of those and they don't sound that good under 4k. I may be able to push the mids a bit higher but I doubt they'll do 4k cleanly at a predictable angle.
Yeah, they are a mostly 6k+ drivers at full output with a 2nd order.. but with typical *padding 3k and a steep high-pass (LR4th or elliptical) should be fine provided you seal around the driver/enclosure with some silicone caulk. The other thing that should be done is use a small strip of 20-30 ppi foam on the vertical exits of the waveguide - just covering the vertical “lips”. The little Fountek ribbon has that same issue with the abrupt vertical exits, obviously adding to diffraction at that 2-4.5kHz region.
*too efficient for most designs (..6 inch pro mid. that isn’t in a deep waveguide).
*too efficient for most designs (..6 inch pro mid. that isn’t in a deep waveguide).
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