@b_force
Good to see Joachim still playing around. Though I prefer the industrial design of his work at Audio Physic.
The old Kronos:
New Kronos:
Good to see Joachim still playing around. Though I prefer the industrial design of his work at Audio Physic.
The old Kronos:
New Kronos:
Sensitivity is important because power requirement is much larger than people assume. It's not like speaker is playing single signals. To play music at 100dB, 90dB/W sensitive speaker does not require 10W, but 10W for each frequency that it is playing simultaneously. Often this could end up with large numbers, and 200-300W most likely won't be enough to play high 100dB peaks with mid 80dB transducers.
If you are referring to my comment about the lower 84-85 dB sensitivity of the SB34SWPL76-4, it's in relation to the 87-89 dB of some other SBA 12s. But because SBA cites dB/W not 2.83V, it's likely to have been measured at 2V, and the effective difference may be nil or trivial because hifi amps are mostly voltage sources.
Yeah, the old Kronos image very good it seems.
What about like the Blade as well to put the bass driver(s) on the side near the dome heigth, because the little high frequency cut off (500 hz vinicity). Better 1-4 WL spacing and more articulation when less near to the soil for the bass (but less bass as a trade off)
50L is not that high if the RNXL. Cancelation is alstotempting with the Dautons or simplir SB29 papyrus (but the VAS ?) or some cheaper SS Discovery line.
What about like the Blade as well to put the bass driver(s) on the side near the dome heigth, because the little high frequency cut off (500 hz vinicity). Better 1-4 WL spacing and more articulation when less near to the soil for the bass (but less bass as a trade off)
50L is not that high if the RNXL. Cancelation is alstotempting with the Dautons or simplir SB29 papyrus (but the VAS ?) or some cheaper SS Discovery line.
I wasn't referring to anything. Just saying. To be honest i look at it different way. For me 110dB is just system peak, and most of the times it's just dynamic peaks that are 15-20dB above listening level. So honestly when someone designs system for 110dB he's designing it for around 90dB listening level.
Better than that these days, at least in music that's not popular in nightclubs. Even YouTube is going for DR14, these days, iirc.
A study of dynamic range in different musical styles conducted in 2016 revealed that dynamic ranges in jazz generally varied from 13 dB to 23 dB.
As a group, classical recordings have the widest dynamic range of any genre. The same study cited above found that recorded classical music typically offers between about 20 dB and 32 dB of dynamic range. While that might seem like a lot, it’s still quite a bit smaller than that of a live symphony orchestra performance, which can be as large as 90 dB.
https://hub.yamaha.com/audio/music/what-is-dynamic-range-and-why-does-it-matter/
As a group, classical recordings have the widest dynamic range of any genre. The same study cited above found that recorded classical music typically offers between about 20 dB and 32 dB of dynamic range. While that might seem like a lot, it’s still quite a bit smaller than that of a live symphony orchestra performance, which can be as large as 90 dB.
https://hub.yamaha.com/audio/music/what-is-dynamic-range-and-why-does-it-matter/
Yup I agree for live. Thanks for the inputs about our compact discs, I thought it was even worse than that !
Side-mounted woofers shouldn't be crossed around 500Hz. KEFs use around 350Hz. As well front-back pair would induce problems above 300Hz.
Simulations above show quite high DI for stacked woofers, that comes from vertical dispersion. Still DI is quite low below 500Hz, so hardly any floor bounce reduction effect ecpected.
My vote goes to .5 stacked woofers! SB29NRX75-6 could be nice too https://sbacoustics.com/product/10-sb29nrx75-6-norex/
Simulations above show quite high DI for stacked woofers, that comes from vertical dispersion. Still DI is quite low below 500Hz, so hardly any floor bounce reduction effect ecpected.
My vote goes to .5 stacked woofers! SB29NRX75-6 could be nice too https://sbacoustics.com/product/10-sb29nrx75-6-norex/
340 Hz for the RS60 and 450 hz (spec sheet) for the Kef Blade (measured more 400 Hz by Atkinson).
Thank you to all for the continued discussion.
One of the features I want in the 10" woofer is a motor system with shorting rings. That rules out the SB29NRX driver unfortunately (it is a great driver but for this).
Another woofer which I had considered is the Scan Speak 26W/8867T. It has an aluminum cone, low distortion motor, flat response to 1.2k, first mode cone resonance higher than 2k... There is a lot to like with this driver.
The Xmax of the 26W/8867T is less than the Dayton RSS265, but the sensitivity is much higher. A pair of the daytons has a sensitivity of 90 dB/2.83V, while a pair of the 26W/8867T's have a sensitivity of 95 dB/2.83V. The Dayton woofer has an Mms of 131 g, while the Scan Speak woofer has an Mms of 57g. At 30 Hz, the pair of Scan Speak 26W/8867T at max excursion makes 103 dB SPL at 150 W. This 30 Hz SPL just slightly exceeds my existing woofer, which is one of my requirements.
The Scan Speak 26W/8867T is about twice the cost of Dayton RSS265HF-8, $408 vs $200.
Up till now, I thought the Scan Speak had little advantage over the Dayton, and considering the cost delta, it seemed like the Daytons were an easy choice. But now I am reconsidering the importance of higher sensitivity. Perhaps the 26W/8867T should be reconsidered?
Although the cost per woofer is double, the overall total driver and electronics cost for the whole project goes up by just 22% with the Scan Speak 26W/8867T instead of the Dayton RSS265HF-8. Considering the number of hours I will put into this project, cost becomes even less of a consideration.
I welcome any thoughts on this... j.
One of the features I want in the 10" woofer is a motor system with shorting rings. That rules out the SB29NRX driver unfortunately (it is a great driver but for this).
Yes, I found that during the simulations I ran a few months ago. 300 Hz is about as high as we can go even with DSP delay.
Another woofer which I had considered is the Scan Speak 26W/8867T. It has an aluminum cone, low distortion motor, flat response to 1.2k, first mode cone resonance higher than 2k... There is a lot to like with this driver.
The Xmax of the 26W/8867T is less than the Dayton RSS265, but the sensitivity is much higher. A pair of the daytons has a sensitivity of 90 dB/2.83V, while a pair of the 26W/8867T's have a sensitivity of 95 dB/2.83V. The Dayton woofer has an Mms of 131 g, while the Scan Speak woofer has an Mms of 57g. At 30 Hz, the pair of Scan Speak 26W/8867T at max excursion makes 103 dB SPL at 150 W. This 30 Hz SPL just slightly exceeds my existing woofer, which is one of my requirements.
The Scan Speak 26W/8867T is about twice the cost of Dayton RSS265HF-8, $408 vs $200.
Up till now, I thought the Scan Speak had little advantage over the Dayton, and considering the cost delta, it seemed like the Daytons were an easy choice. But now I am reconsidering the importance of higher sensitivity. Perhaps the 26W/8867T should be reconsidered?
Although the cost per woofer is double, the overall total driver and electronics cost for the whole project goes up by just 22% with the Scan Speak 26W/8867T instead of the Dayton RSS265HF-8. Considering the number of hours I will put into this project, cost becomes even less of a consideration.
I welcome any thoughts on this... j.
Thanks for poking me into reconsidering the importance of sensitivity, and taking another look at Scan Speak. Although the Scan Speak Discovery 26W/8534G does not quite meet my SPL needs, the Revelator 26W/8867T does.
I know you are likely going active, so box size matters less, and sensitivity matters less. However, linear excursion matters in smaller boxes when using boost, and the RSS have more xmax on tap as well as requiring less boost due to smaller box requirements. Would you exceed the linear xmax spec if using the Revs, or would the Sensitivity make up for it to match that of the RSS in terms of extension? I guess the tradeoff is the boost and the where to use it or not.
Both units should play rather high enough to meet the M74A. The RSS210HF4 I crossed at 850Hz without issue, and the 210HO4 has been run to about 1k. The RSS265 should be good to just below there.
Back when I heard the 22W/8867T in Paul Ks Cantilenas, I thought that wasone of the best woofers I'd heard. I built my Attitudes after that with the RSS210HF4, and did it I less than half the volume requirement. I feel the RSS are poor man Revs, but still venerable.
For reference, Magico used the 2x 8867 in the S3 MK1, and I feel that they were a great little speaker.
Both units should play rather high enough to meet the M74A. The RSS210HF4 I crossed at 850Hz without issue, and the 210HO4 has been run to about 1k. The RSS265 should be good to just below there.
Back when I heard the 22W/8867T in Paul Ks Cantilenas, I thought that wasone of the best woofers I'd heard. I built my Attitudes after that with the RSS210HF4, and did it I less than half the volume requirement. I feel the RSS are poor man Revs, but still venerable.
For reference, Magico used the 2x 8867 in the S3 MK1, and I feel that they were a great little speaker.
Thanks for your thoughts !
They are close in deep bass performance. For example, a pair of the RSS265's need 100 W to generate 100 dB SPL at 30 Hz. A pair of 26W/8867T need 83 W to generate 100 dB SPL at 30 Hz. This is independent of any boost or EQ. Not much difference.
When driven to either maximum excursion at 30 Hz or maximum available power, the RSS265 have the advantage. It is limited by the 250 W available power, and we get 104 dB SPL. The 26W are excursion limited and we get 103 dB SPL at 150 W. If I had 510 W, the RSS265 pair could be driven to 107 dB, but I don't have that much power.
So the differences in deep bass max SPL capability are small differences. My requirement is that I at least equal my current woofer SPL capability at 30 Hz, but I don't feel the need to exceed it, I have never felt it lacking.
Both woofers will work and meet my SPL requirements and other objective technical requirements. The question in my mind is whether there are secondary issues that will arise if the low sensitivity RSS265s are driven hard, or if there are subjective advantages to the higher sensitivity 26W drivers...
Again thanks
If running a pair of RSS210HO8 per side in a set of towers MattP built doesn't run out of gas, then you should be fine. He said he's darn near cracked plaster with those things and never bottomed them.
Dan Neubecker had his HOSS with a single RSS265 in a TL, and they got loud too without much effort.
Pete Schumacher had a single RSS315 in his Byzantiums, and they weren't stressed either.
I think with these 2 drivers in particular you can set your sights lower than 30Hz and see what has better performance.
In fact, I feel the RSS have some of the cleanest low bass of what I've heard or used, and the 22W/8857T is on par in performance.
Dan Neubecker had his HOSS with a single RSS265 in a TL, and they got loud too without much effort.
Pete Schumacher had a single RSS315 in his Byzantiums, and they weren't stressed either.
I think with these 2 drivers in particular you can set your sights lower than 30Hz and see what has better performance.
In fact, I feel the RSS have some of the cleanest low bass of what I've heard or used, and the 22W/8857T is on par in performance.
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If I search for a 10" with a demodulation ring this is pretty much the only one on TLHP. The MMS is the same as the scanspeak.
https://en.toutlehautparleur.com/speakers/cone-speaker/speaker-phl-audio-3411-8-ohm-10-inch.html
How many manufacturers have distortion measurements and klippel graphs? Looks like you don't want to go past 5mm of cone excursion with this.
It seems to like a small box and is 93.5db. It just needs lots of eq to jazz it up. I did a cart and it was $811 shipped for 4. The downside is a 14week wait.
That dayton seems tough to top. I was just curious what was out there on the French site.
(attached is a vcad project in a zip)
Take care when using the search function of TLHP. The 10RS430 and 12RS430 do have rings too. But it’s only pointed out on the data sheet.
