I will concede that some of the philosophy of design of my speakers is different. For one, the crossover is series so that it can carefully shape the transition and the phase shift between the drivers.
It was late at night and there were some unintended consequences from my comparison.
Otherwise, I'm still just hangin' here. I will try to avoid getting so off topic.
It was late at night and there were some unintended consequences from my comparison.
Otherwise, I'm still just hangin' here. I will try to avoid getting so off topic.
I have a feeling...
But I'll tell you later.😀
Like a player said once, answering to a journalist before a game:
"How's the game gonna be? I'll tell you after."
But I'll tell you later.😀
Like a player said once, answering to a journalist before a game:
"How's the game gonna be? I'll tell you after."
I expect it to be a game of two halves tonight! But when it is over, I hope that I will be over the 
and on 
and on microphonics/vibrations with ICs
Hi-
I've only just skimmed the last few pages, but I noticed that there was some debate about whether or not physical vibrations will effect the output of a chip (at least that's what I decoded from all the bickering 😉) Anyway, I thought I'd share some information that I learned. Back in the late 60's early 70's, the Israeli Air Force (I'm sure others as well) were concerned about said vibrations. They conducted several tests using shaker tables at extreme frequencies...the result...NO CHANGE! The ICs preformed the same and physical vibrations did not effect them. In case you were wondering, they tested digital and analog components...same result all around.
Doovieman
Hi-
I've only just skimmed the last few pages, but I noticed that there was some debate about whether or not physical vibrations will effect the output of a chip (at least that's what I decoded from all the bickering 😉) Anyway, I thought I'd share some information that I learned. Back in the late 60's early 70's, the Israeli Air Force (I'm sure others as well) were concerned about said vibrations. They conducted several tests using shaker tables at extreme frequencies...the result...NO CHANGE! The ICs preformed the same and physical vibrations did not effect them. In case you were wondering, they tested digital and analog components...same result all around.
Doovieman
Kinda what I expected.
I think a lot of DIY and esoteric audio designers work at this from a magic perspective. If something worked on a turntable, well maybe the same magic will work on an amp.
There is a physical reason why vibration isolation is important with a turntable or perhaps a tube amp. But there is no physical reason for it on a solid-state amp.
I suspect that most of the time the reverence given for the sound quality of various types of wires (silver, gold, low-oxygen copper, gold plated, enameled braided, etc.) is rather silly. Every now and then in a very critical area there may be some place where the small physical property difference between merely good wire and the expensive stuff would be noticeable.
However, I can understand keeping signal paths short for critical sections. Simply by reducing the wire length in half, you reduce the consequent induction/capacitance/RFI/resistance issues in half, which is a far more significant effect than the 10-20% difference in (already rather small) physical property issues the really expensive wire is going to give you over much less expensive alternatives.
Sometimes, by clever design you can reduce the paths by more than half, so then you are really getting somewhere at reducing potential sonic issues.
I think a lot of DIY and esoteric audio designers work at this from a magic perspective. If something worked on a turntable, well maybe the same magic will work on an amp.
There is a physical reason why vibration isolation is important with a turntable or perhaps a tube amp. But there is no physical reason for it on a solid-state amp.
I suspect that most of the time the reverence given for the sound quality of various types of wires (silver, gold, low-oxygen copper, gold plated, enameled braided, etc.) is rather silly. Every now and then in a very critical area there may be some place where the small physical property difference between merely good wire and the expensive stuff would be noticeable.
However, I can understand keeping signal paths short for critical sections. Simply by reducing the wire length in half, you reduce the consequent induction/capacitance/RFI/resistance issues in half, which is a far more significant effect than the 10-20% difference in (already rather small) physical property issues the really expensive wire is going to give you over much less expensive alternatives.
Sometimes, by clever design you can reduce the paths by more than half, so then you are really getting somewhere at reducing potential sonic issues.
geewhizbang said:
Yup...agreed 100%. If there is a "weak link" in all the diy amps it is physical connections and signal length. A bad solder point will have a much worse effect on the output than having 30 gauge crap wire instead of 12 gauge oxygen free pure gold woven by monks in a remote country at high altitute while sipping ceremonial tea. The physical connections are some of the biggest differences between one amp and another. Just because it looks like the solder is connecting two compontents or wire to a PCB, does not mean that there is a good electrical connection.
Doovieman
ps I'm sorry for taking the thread off topic once again.
Yes congratulations Carlos and may I take the opportunity to pay trubute to your best player - Urs Meier! 😉
Vibrations...
Usually putting a crossover outside the speaker makes a difference.
Yes, caps are sensitive.
Talking of vibrations...
I'm shakin', what a game!
😀
Usually putting a crossover outside the speaker makes a difference.
Yes, caps are sensitive.
Talking of vibrations...
I'm shakin', what a game!
😀
There is only one way to 'know' about these issues and that is first-hand experience !
I have heard of investigations by the RAF that reached other conclusions and we could argue about this till the cows come home.
For my part I will say that I have heard the effect of vibrations on hi-fi in an experiment that you would have to be stone deaf not to hear the results. But I am not asking anybody to believe that because you must hear it for yourself! 😉
I suspect we are having another Deaf-pride parade 🙂
A great piece of information. And very relevant to GC microphony. No doubt the Israelis were testing components much more advanced than a GC chip or an audio DAc in the sixties.
Re: Vibrations...
That ref had better watch his back. I hope you feel the buzz that matches our depression at least.carlosfm said:Talking of vibrations...
I'm shakin', what a game!
😀 [/B]
Re: Re: Vibrations...
I guess this had to happen...🙄
Are you sure that goal was legal?
I saw our goalkeeper being aggressed.
And I tell you, a ref that sees that, with so many players, has to be one of the best in the world.
Nevermind, from what we played all the game long, we didn't even deserve to go to the penalties.
IMHO.
Note: our goalkeeper defended the penalty without the gloves.😀
And it's not the first time he makes a goal on a penalty.😉
Now... vibrations...
Vikash said:
I guess this had to happen...🙄
Are you sure that goal was legal?
I saw our goalkeeper being aggressed.
And I tell you, a ref that sees that, with so many players, has to be one of the best in the world.
Nevermind, from what we played all the game long, we didn't even deserve to go to the penalties.
IMHO.
Note: our goalkeeper defended the penalty without the gloves.😀
And it's not the first time he makes a goal on a penalty.😉
Now... vibrations...
Hi,
As far as I'm concerned he could as well have stopped the ball with his tongue....
Beckham seems to excell at kicking up dirt....Geez...How can you miss?
Portugal played very well IMO and deserved to win that match.
Certainly.
I never said there weren't any either, just that the way they were dealt with as shown in those pics is doing more harm than good.
Bygones.😀
Cheers,😉
As far as I'm concerned he could as well have stopped the ball with his tongue....
Beckham seems to excell at kicking up dirt....Geez...How can you miss?
Portugal played very well IMO and deserved to win that match.
Certainly.
I never said there weren't any either, just that the way they were dealt with as shown in those pics is doing more harm than good.
Bygones.😀
Cheers,😉
analog_sa said:
AnalogSa-
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, but I can assure that they were testing things FAR more advanced and complicated things than a GC chip. If it was sarcastic, then perhaps you can explain to me QUANTITAVILY why it is that shaking a transistor will effect its output? The only explanation that I can come up with for why you would hear a difference with mechanical vibrations (we're talking about in an amplifier here...not a speaker) is that the vibrations, over time, have loosened crappy solder joints. If one solders properly the first time around, it is unlikely that frequencies from 20hz - 20khz at 50W will have any effect whatsoever on a solder joint.
Regards,
Doovieman
carlosfm said:Some chips have caps inside.
I believe that it is possible that external caps will be effected by mechanical vibrations, however, caps in integrated circuits are not. They are manufactured by etching substrates. So unless the substrates are loose inside the IC, they aint going anywhere. Given that audio frequency is an extremely basic frequency range to design for, and given that people claim that they hear audible differences via vibrations (I'm not sure what this means or how they tested it, just for fun, I picked up my amp and shook the living *@$! out of it...and heard no difference) I wonder how it's possible for ICs in missiles, jets, space craft, etc to be totally unaltered by EXTREME vibrations. Just my 2 cents.
Doovieman
ps Carlos, regulator/buffer looks nasty...I'm going to try one soon 🙂
Hi,
Well, we weren't discussing isolating the chip but the entire amp for starters.
Whether the chip alone is microphonic or not I'll happily leave in the middle for the moment but the amp does contain other components such as capacitors that are known to be microphonic.
As the amp needs to be isolated from airborne and structure borne vibrations, you can tackle that in a variety of ways just as you can isolate a turntable.
Sticking a cone and two more hard metal feet underneath of a lightweight structure is only going to make it more prone to microphony at certain frequency were the amps' selfresonces are going to be excited.
Simply copying blue leds and pointy feet from a YBA design is just downright silly and errr....pointless.
Studying some applied physics on vibration control would be a better idea IMO.
Cheers,😉
Well, we weren't discussing isolating the chip but the entire amp for starters.
Whether the chip alone is microphonic or not I'll happily leave in the middle for the moment but the amp does contain other components such as capacitors that are known to be microphonic.
As the amp needs to be isolated from airborne and structure borne vibrations, you can tackle that in a variety of ways just as you can isolate a turntable.
Sticking a cone and two more hard metal feet underneath of a lightweight structure is only going to make it more prone to microphony at certain frequency were the amps' selfresonces are going to be excited.
Simply copying blue leds and pointy feet from a YBA design is just downright silly and errr....pointless.
Studying some applied physics on vibration control would be a better idea IMO.
Cheers,😉
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