Perhaps they are microphonic, but could you hear it? On a tube, the plate elements themselves can move quite a bit, especially when the tube is getting old and fragile. The movement can modulate the sound quite a bit.
But on a transistor or just a wire, you would have to have a powerful magnetic field or very rapid movement to generate any appreciable current.
Besides, rubber feet should do a pretty good job of keeping things from vibrating anyway. The pointy metal feet just look kewl, and they scratch up surfaces for no good reason.
I will look at the Hawksford article, but anytime I hear people talking about the superiority of various speaker cables and interconnects I tend to roll my eyes. They are just wires, and no matter what you do, there are going to be small losses due to resistance, inductance and capacitance. But as long as the wire is reasonably thick and the path is kept reasonably short, better cables aren't going to make that much of a diference.
In what way are ultra expensive cables constructed that costs so much anyway?
But on a transistor or just a wire, you would have to have a powerful magnetic field or very rapid movement to generate any appreciable current.
Besides, rubber feet should do a pretty good job of keeping things from vibrating anyway. The pointy metal feet just look kewl, and they scratch up surfaces for no good reason.
I will look at the Hawksford article, but anytime I hear people talking about the superiority of various speaker cables and interconnects I tend to roll my eyes. They are just wires, and no matter what you do, there are going to be small losses due to resistance, inductance and capacitance. But as long as the wire is reasonably thick and the path is kept reasonably short, better cables aren't going to make that much of a diference.
In what way are ultra expensive cables constructed that costs so much anyway?
geewhizbang said:
That should actually be reasonably skinny...
And yes, chips, transistors, but more so caps tend to be microphonic.
dave
I couldn't find the orginal Hawksford article. I could find all sorts of people making references to it, but not the actual article.
Some of the people quoting the article were explaining the physics in a way that certainly bordered on pseudoscience.
So by this definition, the original "Monster Cable" that started this interconnect craze - at least here in the US - was actually doing the wrong thing by making the cables fat?
I have never heard a quiescent transistor amplifier pick up any sound from the room when it was turned on but with no signal.
Why would it suddenly become microphonic once it is playing a signal? Even without a signal the capacitors are there doin' their thang. If they were going to be microphonic at all, you should be able to hear it all of the time, even when the amp isn't playing back a signal.
Some of the people quoting the article were explaining the physics in a way that certainly bordered on pseudoscience.
So by this definition, the original "Monster Cable" that started this interconnect craze - at least here in the US - was actually doing the wrong thing by making the cables fat?
I have never heard a quiescent transistor amplifier pick up any sound from the room when it was turned on but with no signal.
Why would it suddenly become microphonic once it is playing a signal? Even without a signal the capacitors are there doin' their thang. If they were going to be microphonic at all, you should be able to hear it all of the time, even when the amp isn't playing back a signal.
geewhizbang said:
Yes... the original article was published in Wireless World, a with permission reproduction is in the Vacuum State Electronics "Cable Cookbook"
I've certainly heard demos where tapping transistors or caps caused noise to come out the speakers...
dave
Microphonic components
I made a guitar headphone amp with a 2N3819 JFET input transistor. While I was testing it, I noticed that touching the FET produced an audible scratching noise, similar to that produced by brushing fluff from a stylus with the amp turned on. This was the first evidence of microphonic components I witnessed. I left the FET in circuit because I wouldn't normally be touching it, and otherwise it worked ok.
I read an interesting letter in a magazine about changing the op amps in a CD player, but once he'd changed them, the sound was disapointingly bad, Then he realised that he'd forgotten to add a Sorbothane sheet to the new op amp. Once this was done, he said that the sound was now fantastically good.
So I took the lid off my CD player and while it was playing, (CD players mute with no signal), I tapped around with a plastic pen to see if I could hear the tapping through the speakers. From my previous experience of microphony, I knew the effect would be obvious. I heard nothing through the speakers whatever I tapped.
This wasn't a scientific investigation, but it's something that could be repeated quite easily by other people. Try tapping components to identify the microphonic ones.
I made a guitar headphone amp with a 2N3819 JFET input transistor. While I was testing it, I noticed that touching the FET produced an audible scratching noise, similar to that produced by brushing fluff from a stylus with the amp turned on. This was the first evidence of microphonic components I witnessed. I left the FET in circuit because I wouldn't normally be touching it, and otherwise it worked ok.
I read an interesting letter in a magazine about changing the op amps in a CD player, but once he'd changed them, the sound was disapointingly bad, Then he realised that he'd forgotten to add a Sorbothane sheet to the new op amp. Once this was done, he said that the sound was now fantastically good.
So I took the lid off my CD player and while it was playing, (CD players mute with no signal), I tapped around with a plastic pen to see if I could hear the tapping through the speakers. From my previous experience of microphony, I knew the effect would be obvious. I heard nothing through the speakers whatever I tapped.
This wasn't a scientific investigation, but it's something that could be repeated quite easily by other people. Try tapping components to identify the microphonic ones.
Interesting... tweaks
Snake oil:
http://www.audiotweaks.com/reviews/cblelevators/page01.htm
Don't believe everything you see on the magazines, and don't believe everything you see on the net.
At least if you want to try this snake oil, don't spend $159.95 for a set of 8!
Some "golden ears" report things as if they heard a bird singing at 100 km distance.
I believe in microphonics (specially caps, well... valves too), in absorbing vibrations (soft material like sorbothane) and in "tuning" vibration (spikes, cones, etc).
The results are always unpredictable, only after testing you know what's best for that device.
Never buy without testing.
If no testing, no buy, sorry.
Like testing speaker cables with amps/speakers, sometimes a "very good cable" gives a very bad result...
Snake oil:
http://www.audiotweaks.com/reviews/cblelevators/page01.htm
Don't believe everything you see on the magazines, and don't believe everything you see on the net.
At least if you want to try this snake oil, don't spend $159.95 for a set of 8!
Some "golden ears" report things as if they heard a bird singing at 100 km distance.
I believe in microphonics (specially caps, well... valves too), in absorbing vibrations (soft material like sorbothane) and in "tuning" vibration (spikes, cones, etc).
The results are always unpredictable, only after testing you know what's best for that device.
Never buy without testing.
If no testing, no buy, sorry.
Like testing speaker cables with amps/speakers, sometimes a "very good cable" gives a very bad result...
Hi Carlos, I have replied to your PM! 😉
For others ordring electronic components in the UK, Pete Ream has pointed me in the direction of Rapid Electronics who take smaller orders and have reasonable prices (LM338T at around 1.15 UKP).
For others ordring electronic components in the UK, Pete Ream has pointed me in the direction of Rapid Electronics who take smaller orders and have reasonable prices (LM338T at around 1.15 UKP).
We've got a bit off subject with the talk on microphonics but I would add that it is not only a case of preventing unwanted envirinmetal vibrations affecting the signal, it is also necessary to consider the unwanted vibrations caused by the process of passing the signal through your equipment.
For me the talk on microphonics and cabling is like a test case to determine who are doing golden ear psychoacoustic BS stuff, and who are actually doing some actual science along with the art.
I am on a limited budget, and if there is no need to spend money for something, I won't. I can't.
But on the other hand, I am much more picky than the average bear about sound reproduction. I have found that I can build my own speakers and have much better results than anything I could buy comercially with my budget. I now want to do the same with the amplification.
I am on a limited budget, and if there is no need to spend money for something, I won't. I can't.
But on the other hand, I am much more picky than the average bear about sound reproduction. I have found that I can build my own speakers and have much better results than anything I could buy comercially with my budget. I now want to do the same with the amplification.
I couldn't afford my system if I bought commercial components.
My (diy) amp, my (diy) pre, my (ultra-modded) cdp and my (diy) TDA1541A dac are a good example.
But then, my Epos 11 speakers cost me 250 euros 4 years ago, second hand.😎
I could buy good woofers, tweeters and make a good speaker, but it would cost me more to make a speaker of this quality.
On my bedroom I have speakers I made myself with Seas units, not the most expensive ones, but those cost me almost the price of my Epos.
My (diy) amp, my (diy) pre, my (ultra-modded) cdp and my (diy) TDA1541A dac are a good example.
But then, my Epos 11 speakers cost me 250 euros 4 years ago, second hand.😎
I could buy good woofers, tweeters and make a good speaker, but it would cost me more to make a speaker of this quality.
On my bedroom I have speakers I made myself with Seas units, not the most expensive ones, but those cost me almost the price of my Epos.
Interestingly, I took a look at the EPOS 11 speakers you have, which get pretty rave user reviews from everyone online.
The are roughly the same thing I've built myself. Mine are also a two-way system with a small but well-designed woofer and a dome tweeter. The small woofer goes surprisingly low (F3 corner 55 hz) and because it is small, the low bass and mids are extremely articulate. There is good but not-quite chest thumping bass.
So if your system sounds great with the gainclone, mine should too.
I will be getting a settlement from Microsoft soon for the permatemp thang (geesh the lawyers seem to be doing their best to hold onto the cash for as looooong as they can), and this is one present I'm buyin' for myself, a few more upgrades to my system.
The are roughly the same thing I've built myself. Mine are also a two-way system with a small but well-designed woofer and a dome tweeter. The small woofer goes surprisingly low (F3 corner 55 hz) and because it is small, the low bass and mids are extremely articulate. There is good but not-quite chest thumping bass.
So if your system sounds great with the gainclone, mine should too.
I will be getting a settlement from Microsoft soon for the permatemp thang (geesh the lawyers seem to be doing their best to hold onto the cash for as looooong as they can), and this is one present I'm buyin' for myself, a few more upgrades to my system.
so you're saying that you have the same design skills as the guy who designed the epos speakers......
its easier to put a man on the moon than designing a good loudspeaker......and the epos do have some special qualities....🙂
That is utter BS. I didn't design my speakers anyway. I bought a kit from GR-Research for their AV-1 design. By so doing, I got a well-worked out design, and I didn't build the drivers, either.
But there are people that do both of those things too, even making their own formers and winding their own speaker coils and they don't have to have a degree in rocket science to get good results. I have a feeling that your moon-shot comparison is off by a quite a few decimal places.
It really isn't all that hard to build a fairly good pair of speakers. I've been doing it since 1982 or so. I'm pretty handy as a woodworker, so that helps.
The main problem with most commerical speakers is the markup required to make them profitable. If they use $100 worth of drivers and crossovers and put them in a box that costs $70 to build, the resulting speaker sells for about $700 at the stereo store. It lists for $920, but sells for $700 in the usual scam to make people think that they got a deal.
Part of this is because the stereo store has to stock the store with a bunch of these bulky items to have them ready to sell to you. It costs a lot of money to ship them around, store them in warehouses. The real-estate for the store is usually very high-priced, so they have to markup a lot just to cover the rent.
Since the weight of shipping the enclosures is one of the biggest costs for speakers, there is a tendency to cut corners on the heft of the cabinets, because it reduces shipping costs. There is also a tendency to cut $5 here and there even on fairly expensive speakers, to keep the markup at profitable levels.
If you start out with good drivers and put them in a good box, without compromising the box design you will get a very good sounding system.
There are dozens of highly optimized designs that are posted all over the net.
For that matter, even if you put an inexpensive $10.00 tweeter in a box with a $10 or so Fisher 12-inch paper woofer (not usually availble in retail, tho) in a good box of the proper volume you will be greatly surprised at the quality of the sound. The box will end up costing more than the drivers, but it is worth it. The resulting speaker won't have the flabby bass that you have heard so many times before from the popular hi-fi systems of the of the 80s that used this same driver.
I know what I'm looking for, anyway. I want a small box as possible to miminmize defraction effects. I round the corners of the boxes and don't use grilles. At the same time, the speaker needs to go low enough that the subwoofer won't sound directional. I like soft dome tweeters. I prefer the sound of small well designed drivers to big ones, at least in a living room. I am looking for FLAT frequency response. Every time I've picked out a speaker that I liked over others, I found out later that it had exceptionaly even frequency response.
Since my speakers contain about $200 worth of parts and about $200 in box materials / labor, they would cost about $1000-1200 retail. I paid a retail premium of $100 for the kit, but it was worth it in time saved.
But there are people that do both of those things too, even making their own formers and winding their own speaker coils and they don't have to have a degree in rocket science to get good results. I have a feeling that your moon-shot comparison is off by a quite a few decimal places.
It really isn't all that hard to build a fairly good pair of speakers. I've been doing it since 1982 or so. I'm pretty handy as a woodworker, so that helps.
The main problem with most commerical speakers is the markup required to make them profitable. If they use $100 worth of drivers and crossovers and put them in a box that costs $70 to build, the resulting speaker sells for about $700 at the stereo store. It lists for $920, but sells for $700 in the usual scam to make people think that they got a deal.
Part of this is because the stereo store has to stock the store with a bunch of these bulky items to have them ready to sell to you. It costs a lot of money to ship them around, store them in warehouses. The real-estate for the store is usually very high-priced, so they have to markup a lot just to cover the rent.
Since the weight of shipping the enclosures is one of the biggest costs for speakers, there is a tendency to cut corners on the heft of the cabinets, because it reduces shipping costs. There is also a tendency to cut $5 here and there even on fairly expensive speakers, to keep the markup at profitable levels.
If you start out with good drivers and put them in a good box, without compromising the box design you will get a very good sounding system.
There are dozens of highly optimized designs that are posted all over the net.
For that matter, even if you put an inexpensive $10.00 tweeter in a box with a $10 or so Fisher 12-inch paper woofer (not usually availble in retail, tho) in a good box of the proper volume you will be greatly surprised at the quality of the sound. The box will end up costing more than the drivers, but it is worth it. The resulting speaker won't have the flabby bass that you have heard so many times before from the popular hi-fi systems of the of the 80s that used this same driver.
I know what I'm looking for, anyway. I want a small box as possible to miminmize defraction effects. I round the corners of the boxes and don't use grilles. At the same time, the speaker needs to go low enough that the subwoofer won't sound directional. I like soft dome tweeters. I prefer the sound of small well designed drivers to big ones, at least in a living room. I am looking for FLAT frequency response. Every time I've picked out a speaker that I liked over others, I found out later that it had exceptionaly even frequency response.
Since my speakers contain about $200 worth of parts and about $200 in box materials / labor, they would cost about $1000-1200 retail. I paid a retail premium of $100 for the kit, but it was worth it in time saved.
well congratulations - that really qualifies you as a topnotch crossoverdesigner...........the box is the least important factor...
LM338's at low price
Is there a curse on this thread? It seems that we can't go a few posts without either going well off-topic, or starting another argument!
Now, back to regulated GC supplies (again). I have found a source of LM338 regulators that will cost 1 .05 UKP each if bought in quantities of 25 or more. This would appear to be a very good price based on reports from others on this forum.
Four LM338's are required for Pedja's regulated supply so I am looking for five or more 'takers' to make up a group order. Total cost would be 4.20 UKP plus the cost of me forwarding them on but that should not be much as they weigh very little.
In view of postal costs, this offer is probably best limited to the UK and Europe.
If you are interested, please contact me via the contact form on
Decibel Dungeon as soon as possible please as I want to place the order.
Is there a curse on this thread? It seems that we can't go a few posts without either going well off-topic, or starting another argument!
Now, back to regulated GC supplies (again). I have found a source of LM338 regulators that will cost 1 .05 UKP each if bought in quantities of 25 or more. This would appear to be a very good price based on reports from others on this forum.
Four LM338's are required for Pedja's regulated supply so I am looking for five or more 'takers' to make up a group order. Total cost would be 4.20 UKP plus the cost of me forwarding them on but that should not be much as they weigh very little.
In view of postal costs, this offer is probably best limited to the UK and Europe.
If you are interested, please contact me via the contact form on
Decibel Dungeon as soon as possible please as I want to place the order.
i bed that they are roughly totally different from your homebrew......
the epos has some special features such as "direct coupled" basunit and the tweeter (aludome) only uses one part for filter - a polycap.
that means it is very easy to kick alive but it has a difficult impedance curve and therefore it needs a strong amp to control it.......am i right carlos....?
i can't name other speakers made this way.
what i'm saying is that the amp (gc) will become a very important factor and your speakers are perhaps a much easier load.
geewhizbang said:
My Epos speakers are
in' now, they say they don't deserve to be compared with these.😀 Seriously, one of the secrets of these speakers is the Epos woofer, and also a good tweeter.
But the main secret is the woofer, it was made so that it doesn't need crossover at all.
The crossover here is just a cap and a resistor on the tweeter, nothing more.
Neutrality, transparence, detail, soundstage, dynamics (yes!), a midband to
for...Well, Epos doesn't sell these woofers for the diy community, so you will have a very hard time making a speaker like this...
"I have found a source of LM338 regulators that will cost 1 .05 UKP each if bought in quantities of 25 or more."
thats a very fair price especially compared to the lt1083 - and concidering the improvement the regulated supply will give you, you shouldn't hesitate to close the deal.........🙂
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