analog_sa said:
And that's what happened.😉
Let me tell you that the guy doesn't like those AA pre/powers very much, but he had been demonstrating those to a client that asked to hear them, so they were connected in that room.
analog_sa said:
I must have had another company in mind that sounds similar.In any case I would be willing to stack up my GC against anything up to 5000 euro with great confidence as long as the speakers were efficient enough.
protos said:
Yes, and the speaker cable is very important.
I was surprized to know that Linn recommends and sells a cable of their own that costs around 3 Euros/m and looks like cheap 2.5mm cable in a transparent isolation.
The guy told me that they have that cable on the Linn systems that they have always connected in other rooms.
I think I'll buy some cheap Supra 2.5 to test with my GC.
If you have Kimber which is a widely accepted good cable why should you try cheaper cables for an upgrade? I don't think the GC would be extremely sensitive to cable differences as to sound bad compared to another amp in the same set up as long as there wasn't much capacitance involved.Something like Nordost should be fine.I am using MIT which some amp manufacturers (e.g. Lavardin) would recommend against and it sounds great.
Protos,
I know that my Kimber 4TC is a good cable and never thought of changing it.
I'm not saying that's an upgrade, only that the GC may go better with a "figure of eight" normal cable.
Have you though about why does the 47Labs Gaincard use a thin 0.4mm cable?
And why Naim amps only play well with their simple (but not so cheap) 2.5mm cable?
That Naim cable is nothing special with other amps, it doesn't worth the money at all.
I think that what's in common here is that you don't have a zobel on the output, and the amp is really picky about cables.
I've seen a Supra Ply 3.4S cable, that some people consider a good cable, playing bad sounds on a Rega Mira, with Rega Ela speakers.
But on other combinations that cable is not bad at all.
Cables are not such an exact science, you really have to test them.
I know that my Kimber 4TC is a good cable and never thought of changing it.
I'm not saying that's an upgrade, only that the GC may go better with a "figure of eight" normal cable.
Have you though about why does the 47Labs Gaincard use a thin 0.4mm cable?
And why Naim amps only play well with their simple (but not so cheap) 2.5mm cable?
That Naim cable is nothing special with other amps, it doesn't worth the money at all.
I think that what's in common here is that you don't have a zobel on the output, and the amp is really picky about cables.
I've seen a Supra Ply 3.4S cable, that some people consider a good cable, playing bad sounds on a Rega Mira, with Rega Ela speakers.
But on other combinations that cable is not bad at all.
Cables are not such an exact science, you really have to test them.
Yes cables can make a difference.I have had 3 Naim amps though and I have used different cables on them and I can't say they are that sensitive as long as capacitance is low.Naim also doesn't use a zobel network and that is the main reason they don't want people to experiment with exotic cables.When I tried a Lavardin amp with my expensive (1500 euro) MIT cables it certainly sounded too plummy/rolled off and it sounded better with the much cheaper Nordost flatline.(I tried the IS and IS reference and I still don't understand why some people like them.Plus the cost is unforgiveable for the construction)
I am just saying that one has to be sensible here and not throw all convention out the window. If you stick to good low capacitance cable the amp should work very well and from then on it is a matter of selecting / fine tuning with a cable that matches the speakers/room/personal preferences.
I am just saying that one has to be sensible here and not throw all convention out the window. If you stick to good low capacitance cable the amp should work very well and from then on it is a matter of selecting / fine tuning with a cable that matches the speakers/room/personal preferences.
Protos,
Kimber are very good cables, but have mid to high capacitance.
My idea is to try some cheap cable (I'll try Supra 2.5), with my GC in a central position. That way I'll use a 3m pair. It's cheap.
If I don't like it, I can use the Supra on other places (I have 4 systems at home
).
It only lacks the kitchen and the bathroom, but they have radios.
Everywhere I am, doing whatever I'm doing, I like to listen to some music.
The main objective here is to get to a conclusion of a good but not expensive cable for a GC.
I really think that my GC didn't like the 8TC cable we were using yesterday.
It would be so good to have a conclusion so that you can tell everyone: if you use a GC, use it with cable X or Y.😉
Kimber are very good cables, but have mid to high capacitance.
My idea is to try some cheap cable (I'll try Supra 2.5), with my GC in a central position. That way I'll use a 3m pair. It's cheap.
If I don't like it, I can use the Supra on other places (I have 4 systems at home
).It only lacks the kitchen and the bathroom, but they have radios.
Everywhere I am, doing whatever I'm doing, I like to listen to some music.
The main objective here is to get to a conclusion of a good but not expensive cable for a GC.
I really think that my GC didn't like the 8TC cable we were using yesterday.
It would be so good to have a conclusion so that you can tell everyone: if you use a GC, use it with cable X or Y.😉
The naked truth
Ok guys, here they are.
With some of the speakers we tested my GC played much better than the AA Donizetti power amps.
Clearly a more refined and even dynamic sound.
My pre was clearly superior to the Bellini pre.
You can see them here, selecting "products":
http://www.audioanalogue.com/inglese/index.html
Ok guys, here they are.
With some of the speakers we tested my GC played much better than the AA Donizetti power amps.
Clearly a more refined and even dynamic sound.
My pre was clearly superior to the Bellini pre.
You can see them here, selecting "products":
http://www.audioanalogue.com/inglese/index.html
high-end session follow-up
Ok guys, some more news.
Friday night I opened my GC, and put in on the floor, connected to my pre and my Epos speakers.
Listened to the last Ben Harper CD ("Diamonds on the inside"), one of the most heard that night, because it's very good for testing.
Almost every track there is good, but I remembered well that on track 9, with some of the speakers we tested, including the Epos as I have at home, on the beginning there's a slow guitar sound, and if you listen carefully there's a piano on the background.
What I heard at home was what we heard there the previous day, that is, the piano gets masked behind the guitar sound and at a certain point you can't follow it anymore.
It's a very good test track.
I thought and thought...
I was inclined to test other speaker cables...
I went to look at my things and there they were, 4x10.000uf caps, complete with wires already soldered.
I used some wires that have "crocodiles"
(sorry, we call it crocodiles here, I hope you understand), so that I could connect and diisconnect the caps easily.
Turned off the amp, connected the caps (2x10.000uf per channel), turned it on, hit play, track 9 and...😱 😱
What I heard completely devastated me.
The piano was clear as water now.
Changed track, played the whole disc, and the bass was much faster now.
Then I disconnected and connected again the caps several times and compared.
Some people has reported that a GC with big caps have more bass.
It doesn't.
It has much better definition in the bass, much more control and as a consequence the rest of the spectrum doesn't get swamped by it.
Let me tell you that my toroid is 2x24V, 8A (384 VA).
I measured the PSU with the amp playing loud, with just the 1000uf caps, and there's no significant voltage variations (around 0.2~0.3v variation).
I returned to my initial doubts about low capacitance in a power amp's PSU.
Well, I ended up making a small board with 4x4700uf caps, bypassed with 0.1uf polyesters.
That board sits half way between the bridge and the modules where the chips are mounted.
This was yesterday night, and I left it playing.
I'll hear it again when I arrive home today.
BTW, the tests I've done were with difficult (and normal)speakers, you may have good results with very sensitive speakers.
But if adding capacitance makes my GC more "universal", I won't look back.
I'm sure that as my GC is now it would drive all the speakers we tested that night without any problem.
Ok guys, some more news.
Friday night I opened my GC, and put in on the floor, connected to my pre and my Epos speakers.
Listened to the last Ben Harper CD ("Diamonds on the inside"), one of the most heard that night, because it's very good for testing.
Almost every track there is good, but I remembered well that on track 9, with some of the speakers we tested, including the Epos as I have at home, on the beginning there's a slow guitar sound, and if you listen carefully there's a piano on the background.
What I heard at home was what we heard there the previous day, that is, the piano gets masked behind the guitar sound and at a certain point you can't follow it anymore.
It's a very good test track.
I thought and thought...
I was inclined to test other speaker cables...
I went to look at my things and there they were, 4x10.000uf caps, complete with wires already soldered.
I used some wires that have "crocodiles"
(sorry, we call it crocodiles here, I hope you understand), so that I could connect and diisconnect the caps easily.Turned off the amp, connected the caps (2x10.000uf per channel), turned it on, hit play, track 9 and...😱 😱
What I heard completely devastated me.
The piano was clear as water now.
Changed track, played the whole disc, and the bass was much faster now.
Then I disconnected and connected again the caps several times and compared.
Some people has reported that a GC with big caps have more bass.
It doesn't.
It has much better definition in the bass, much more control and as a consequence the rest of the spectrum doesn't get swamped by it.
Let me tell you that my toroid is 2x24V, 8A (384 VA).
I measured the PSU with the amp playing loud, with just the 1000uf caps, and there's no significant voltage variations (around 0.2~0.3v variation).
I returned to my initial doubts about low capacitance in a power amp's PSU.
Well, I ended up making a small board with 4x4700uf caps, bypassed with 0.1uf polyesters.
That board sits half way between the bridge and the modules where the chips are mounted.
This was yesterday night, and I left it playing.
I'll hear it again when I arrive home today.
BTW, the tests I've done were with difficult (and normal)speakers, you may have good results with very sensitive speakers.
But if adding capacitance makes my GC more "universal", I won't look back.
I'm sure that as my GC is now it would drive all the speakers we tested that night without any problem.
So time for another shot at the big boys at your friends shop then?
In my case I preferred the smaller BGs to 4700uf x2 Aerovox .The funny thing is that I could get better bass by playing around with the type and quality of the smaller bypass caps than with the main ones.
If you don't mind I would also suggest at some stage when you get tweaking again to try out a balanced GC with a balanced input such as from the DRV134 driver or even from a discrete pre.For me that is the next step in sound quality after a single ended buffer/pre stage and is very simple to implement (at least with the drv chip).
Then the next step would be a battery PS but that is more time consuming and expensive.
Then you could really make those other amps eat dust.
In my case I preferred the smaller BGs to 4700uf x2 Aerovox .The funny thing is that I could get better bass by playing around with the type and quality of the smaller bypass caps than with the main ones.
If you don't mind I would also suggest at some stage when you get tweaking again to try out a balanced GC with a balanced input such as from the DRV134 driver or even from a discrete pre.For me that is the next step in sound quality after a single ended buffer/pre stage and is very simple to implement (at least with the drv chip).
Then the next step would be a battery PS but that is more time consuming and expensive.
Then you could really make those other amps eat dust.
Protos,
I forgot to say that I don't have experience with BGs, so I can't comment if 1000uf is enough in this case or not.
Anyway, the 50w version of the 47Labs Gaincard uses 2200uf.
I use normal caps, although I'm a little picky when buying them, I don't buy nasty things.
And I always bypass.
I removed the sleeves of the 4700uf caps.
They look cool.
Some people say it sounds better, but for me it's hard to believe.
The point here is that the guys of 47Labs use the caps with no sleeve because they say it sounds better.
For me, it's a way to use cheap caps and say they are BGs.
I forgot to say that I don't have experience with BGs, so I can't comment if 1000uf is enough in this case or not.
Anyway, the 50w version of the 47Labs Gaincard uses 2200uf.
I use normal caps, although I'm a little picky when buying them, I don't buy nasty things.
And I always bypass.
I removed the sleeves of the 4700uf caps.
They look cool.
Some people say it sounds better, but for me it's hard to believe.
The point here is that the guys of 47Labs use the caps with no sleeve because they say it sounds better.
For me, it's a way to use cheap caps and say they are BGs.
Carlos as explained in another thread I have setup in my test jig a GC right now and it sounds pretty good with 2 X 15 000uf elnas that are bypassed and I placed 2 X 470uf close to the chip which are also bypassed...........I have only taken a few measurements so far but I think I will utilise them in my final setup
DIRT®
DIRT®
JOE DIRT® said:
Yes, JOE.
I repeat what I said, it may have passed unnoticed:
"Well, I ended up making a small board with 4x4700uf caps, bypassed with 0.1uf polyesters.
That board sits half way between the bridge and the modules where the chips are mounted."
I have the 1000uf caps, bypassed, near the chips (actually, on the boards where the chips are).
It seams that when people talk that they have tested larger caps and didn't like, what they've done is to replace the 1000uf caps for larger ones.
That seams wrong to me.
Near the chips you need something from 470uf to 1000uf, never big ones.
The big ones may be a little far away from the chips.
And, as I concluded, this is the way to go, and the way I'll do it from now on.
more news, cables and cables
Ok, this time, cables.
Let me introduce this: about 13 years ago I used Supra 2.5 speaker cable.
I had my Nad amp and JBL LX500 (3-way big standmounts) speakers.
Some years after I changed for Kimber 4PR (the cheapest from Kimber), and it was a good move.
About 6 years ago I bought Kimber 4 TC and it was night and day, so much that I didn't ever thought about speaker cables again.
Yesterday I've been listening to my GC (with the extra caps, of course, that's definitive).
I listened and the sound is much better, it drives them much better and, as I told you, I can now follow the piano on that track 9 of Ben Harper's "Diamonds on the inside".
Some days ago I bought 7m of Supra 2.5, to test them with my GC.
Cut in half, put some plugs...
I have my system at the right side of the room, but this time I tested my GC on a central position, under the TV, on a shelf.
I was afraid that the big toroid would magnetize the TV screen, but no problem, it doesn't.
I have a signal cable that goes from my VCR to my system, and I used it to connect my pre to the GC (it's good to have a pre like this and drive a 5m signal cable wiithout any problem😉 ).
I connected the Supra to the speakers.
Power on and...😱
Well, as I expected, you really don't need more than this cable for your GC.
It happens that with my GC I prefer the sound with the Supra than with the Kimber.
The Bass doesn't go so deep as with the Kimber (the difference is subtle), but it's more controled, the midband is neutral, as it always was, no big change here (I love my EPOS!), and the treble is a touch smoother, without loosing any precision an definition.
Guys, I know the Supra 2.5 for a long time, and I know that the 4TC is miles away in terms of quality (and price).
But what I'm reporting is a test with a GC.
The Kimbers are mid to high capacitance cables, not the best for a GC.
But it seams that the GC likes these Supras so much as Naim amps like Naim cables.
After all, it's good to have the best results with a cheap cable (2.9 Euros/m).
And, as I said on a previous note, even Linn uses and recommends their 3 Euros/m speaker cables on their high-end systems.
I would recommend to everyone to test the Supra 2.5.
It's really cheap, and the results are fantastic.
Stay away from the Supra Ply cables, high capacitance!
And don't try to re-invent the weel with isoteric cables on your GC.
It doesn't need them.
Now I have a problem: what am I gonna do with my Kimbers?
Ok, this time, cables.
Let me introduce this: about 13 years ago I used Supra 2.5 speaker cable.
I had my Nad amp and JBL LX500 (3-way big standmounts) speakers.
Some years after I changed for Kimber 4PR (the cheapest from Kimber), and it was a good move.
About 6 years ago I bought Kimber 4 TC and it was night and day, so much that I didn't ever thought about speaker cables again.
Yesterday I've been listening to my GC (with the extra caps, of course, that's definitive).
I listened and the sound is much better, it drives them much better and, as I told you, I can now follow the piano on that track 9 of Ben Harper's "Diamonds on the inside".
Some days ago I bought 7m of Supra 2.5, to test them with my GC.
Cut in half, put some plugs...
I have my system at the right side of the room, but this time I tested my GC on a central position, under the TV, on a shelf.
I was afraid that the big toroid would magnetize the TV screen, but no problem, it doesn't.
I have a signal cable that goes from my VCR to my system, and I used it to connect my pre to the GC (it's good to have a pre like this and drive a 5m signal cable wiithout any problem😉 ).
I connected the Supra to the speakers.
Power on and...😱
Well, as I expected, you really don't need more than this cable for your GC.
It happens that with my GC I prefer the sound with the Supra than with the Kimber.
The Bass doesn't go so deep as with the Kimber (the difference is subtle), but it's more controled, the midband is neutral, as it always was, no big change here (I love my EPOS!), and the treble is a touch smoother, without loosing any precision an definition.
Guys, I know the Supra 2.5 for a long time, and I know that the 4TC is miles away in terms of quality (and price).
But what I'm reporting is a test with a GC.
The Kimbers are mid to high capacitance cables, not the best for a GC.
But it seams that the GC likes these Supras so much as Naim amps like Naim cables.
After all, it's good to have the best results with a cheap cable (2.9 Euros/m).
And, as I said on a previous note, even Linn uses and recommends their 3 Euros/m speaker cables on their high-end systems.
I would recommend to everyone to test the Supra 2.5.
It's really cheap, and the results are fantastic.
Stay away from the Supra Ply cables, high capacitance!
And don't try to re-invent the weel with isoteric cables on your GC.
It doesn't need them.
Now I have a problem: what am I gonna do with my Kimbers?
Carlos, I can't remember if it was me or somebody else who suggested trying some other speaker cables with the GCs.
It's very easy to fall into a trap when finding a cable that works with one amp not to want to start the long search for something better. But if you don't, you may not be relaising the full-potential of that new amp!
No speaker cable is better or worse than another - they just have different properties that will work better between different combinations of amp and speakers. ALWAYS experiment.
And price has very little to do with things either!
It's very easy to fall into a trap when finding a cable that works with one amp not to want to start the long search for something better. But if you don't, you may not be relaising the full-potential of that new amp!
No speaker cable is better or worse than another - they just have different properties that will work better between different combinations of amp and speakers. ALWAYS experiment.
And price has very little to do with things either!
Nuuk, I completely agree with you, that's what I think.
Someone here was dubious about it, because the Kimber is a good cable.
I know that, but from what I know about GCs and some speaker cables I know well, I had a strong feeling that the Supra 2.5 would be a good choice.
But let me tell you that the biggest step up on my amp was adding some caps on the PSU.😀
Have you read my previous notes?
Someone here was dubious about it, because the Kimber is a good cable.
I know that, but from what I know about GCs and some speaker cables I know well, I had a strong feeling that the Supra 2.5 would be a good choice.
But let me tell you that the biggest step up on my amp was adding some caps on the PSU.😀
Have you read my previous notes?
Every word Carlos 😉
Some time ago Fedde bought some of the 47Labs cables to try with his GC and we sghould be due for a review real soon! Are you out there Fedde?
I'm here honey 🙂
It's toooo hot to be busy with these things I am afraid... 😎
Though I'll keep my promise! (and at least they are burnt in well !!! LOL)
Fedde
It's toooo hot to be busy with these things I am afraid... 😎
Though I'll keep my promise! (and at least they are burnt in well !!! LOL)
Fedde
carlosfm said:
I actually had my BG 1000u right on the chip and added 2 Jensen 10,000U at the bridge and didn't like the results at all. Some say BG don't like any company and I never tried any other caps with GC, but I still claim that 1000u is a way to go, no bypass, no additional capacitance.
The amps were tested in many systems and nobody ever complained about bass or driving difficiency.
Peter Daniel said:
Ha!
You should have been there, Peter...
Do you know the B&W 602 S3?
90db sensitivity, 8 ohms.
It played so bad that even the bass was overblown and delayed from the rest of the spectum.
Guys, looking just to the sensitivity specs can be misleading.
I heard that on some frequencies these speakers can go as low as 2.9 ohms.😱
Curiously (or not) the 601 S3 (much smaller) played much better.
The guy kept saying "let's test small speakers, I see this doesn't drive the big ones".
I've got a pain on my backs getting a pair of Dali floorstanders (the guy was laughing at me: "that won't work!") just to hear a horrible sound, similar to the 602 S3...
Peter, test your amps with real world speakers.
Not everyone can have 94db speakers as you have, with ultra sensitive 20~25cm bass drivers.
There's no space on our living rooms for that, and manufacturers everyday are doing it smaller.
No huge Monitor Golds today, it's more like thin floorstanders with 10 cm mid-bass drivers (!).
Peter, you can tell me that the BGs are great.
On the GC they may even give you that little extra detail.
But saying that 1000uf BGs can do miracles...
Get a pair of normal speakers an test your amps.
And preferably (I'm humble to admit it) with the help of someone who has good hearing for this.
That guy called me the attention for details that would completely passed unnoticed to me.
It's his life, it's what he does every day.
That piano on track 9 of the last Ben Harper CD is a good example, but not even the best one.
Deam it, the guy mounted the speakers on the stands.
We turned the amp on.
Sitting on the sofa, he gets up (this was with every speaker), moves the speaker a little (sometimes not even 5cm!) and it plays much better.😱
Last time he went to my house he oriented my speakers, took him 5 minutes, and I simply couldn't believe the soundstage.
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