I want to build some PA speakers that don't have the characteristics of normal PA speakers that I hate so much.... namely, the blaring sound of the horn at high levels, and the muddyness that I think results from assigning too much midrange to something like a 12" woofer.
I would prefer to make these speakers with a larger number of high and mid frequency drivers, something more like a line array, probably with multiple tweeters just to spread the responsibility out a bit, and keep the distortion down at higher levels.
Anybody built PA speakers wwith sound quality in mind and come up with anything interesting?
What about those Bose L1 pole speakers? What's the deal with those? (Jerry Seinfeld voice)
I would prefer to make these speakers with a larger number of high and mid frequency drivers, something more like a line array, probably with multiple tweeters just to spread the responsibility out a bit, and keep the distortion down at higher levels.
Anybody built PA speakers wwith sound quality in mind and come up with anything interesting?
What about those Bose L1 pole speakers? What's the deal with those? (Jerry Seinfeld voice)
JBL makes some really good, low-distortion, high-end PA stuff.
Horns are a great way to increase SPL and reduce distortion. The JBL horns that play down to 1000hz and up to 20k sound really good, even up to high volume levels. The 2226 15" woofer seems to be considered nearly ultimate in high SPL bass.
Midrange? Ah.... I don't know how to help you there. I'm sure someone has made midrange horns to cover the frequencies between 300 and 1000 hz, but I don't know enough about them.
My own PA system consists of a ton of $0.87 full-range speakers from Parts Express (they require tons of corrective EQ to sound good, but boy do they sound good!) supplemented by whatever good woofers I happen to have available to me. I've never been disappointed with their sound... only with their low headroom. 😛 110dB's is not attainable with my setup.
Make sure you post what you decide to go with, as this is something I want to build too!
Horns are a great way to increase SPL and reduce distortion. The JBL horns that play down to 1000hz and up to 20k sound really good, even up to high volume levels. The 2226 15" woofer seems to be considered nearly ultimate in high SPL bass.
Midrange? Ah.... I don't know how to help you there. I'm sure someone has made midrange horns to cover the frequencies between 300 and 1000 hz, but I don't know enough about them.
My own PA system consists of a ton of $0.87 full-range speakers from Parts Express (they require tons of corrective EQ to sound good, but boy do they sound good!) supplemented by whatever good woofers I happen to have available to me. I've never been disappointed with their sound... only with their low headroom. 😛 110dB's is not attainable with my setup.
Make sure you post what you decide to go with, as this is something I want to build too!
The Paulinator said:
That blaring sound you mention usually comes from 2" compression drivers crossing over too low - I hate that. I try to keep main vocal range out of compression drivers, preferring 1" drivers crossed at higher than 3kHz.
The muddyness is usually caused by high harmonic distortion levels in the bass cabinets clouding the lower midrange.
These characteristics were common in older systems, and cheap systems, but there are plenty of "hi fi" PA systems around. If you have the chance, listen to a Martin Wavefront system (still my favourite). These use 1" drivers down to 3.5kHz, horn loaded 6.5" drivers for high mids, 12" drivers for low mids, and long excursion 18" for subs.
Cheers
Hi Graeme
Just wondering if you've done anything yet with the Alpha 6 drivers on the midhorns yet?
Adrian
Just wondering if you've done anything yet with the Alpha 6 drivers on the midhorns yet?
Adrian
Hi Paulinator.
If You really want high-end mid/high PA, then visit stageaccompany , and check out their ribbon compact drivers .
If You really want high-end mid/high PA, then visit stageaccompany , and check out their ribbon compact drivers .
I read this article in Audio Critic quite a few years ago.
http://www.audioheritage.org/html/perspectives/drews-clues/system.htm
I think it represents an interesting read in the least, and possibly a good starting point for Hi-Fi Large venue sound.
http://www.audioheritage.org/html/perspectives/drews-clues/system.htm
I think it represents an interesting read in the least, and possibly a good starting point for Hi-Fi Large venue sound.
I have come across a few examples that look interesting:
HT with PA drivers, very impessive
http://members.tripod.com/~BassPig/
Some food for thought ...
HT with PA drivers, very impessive
http://members.tripod.com/~BassPig/
Some food for thought ...
I would suggest that you take a look at Electro-Voice's Qrx series, or EAW's LA325. The 325 has a very "Hi-Fi" sound to it. It uses two Eminence 15's, two Audax 7" mids, and a B&C (I Think) compression driver. Very nice box. If cost is no object, The JBL VerTec is AMAZING! We flew ours at Performance this week with 8 boxes and 4 SR4719X subs, and I was blown away. You can ground stack four per side for a very good sounding system. You need a huge amount of amplification (4 MA-3600's, 4 MA-2400's) but it's worth it.
Cheers,
Zach
Cheers,
Zach
The Paulinator
I want to build some PA speakers that don't have the characteristics of normal PA speakers that I hate so much.... namely, the blaring sound of the horn at high levels, and the muddyness that I think results from assigning too much midrange to something like a 12" woofer.
OMNIFEX
Het Dude. I don't know if you know this saying.....
"The System Is Only As Good As Its User" I've
heard $5,000.00 a box speakers sound, like
garbage, and, mix n match speakers that sound
outstanding.
What you explained is a typical reply from someone
who want a good sounding system but don't know
where to start.
Your ears will guide you, not to mention, buying the
right tools to determine what will, and what will not
get the job done to your taste.
You have to have a clear understanding on what you
want. The Martin Wavefront 8 Sounds Outstanding.
However, it may not be the right type of box for your
application. This applies to Turbosound, EAW, EV, JBL,
and, Funktion One as well.
The type of application involved, the amount of speakers
you are willing to use, and, power, all plays a role on
what will become your ideal system. And lets not forget
the biggest opsticale.......... budget !
The Paulinator
I would prefer to make these speakers with a larger number of high and mid frequency drivers, something more like a line array, probably with multiple tweeters just to spread the responsibility out a bit, and keep the distortion down at higher levels.
OMNIFEX
So basically, you want to build a 4 or 5 way system.
It can be done. Just keep in mind, that the type of
gigs you're doing will determine if this is logical or
not.
The Paulinator
Anybody built PA speakers wwith sound quality in mind and come up with anything interesting?
OMNIFEX
Yes. I have. However, I find the best way to get the
sound you are looking for, is to investigate on the
type of speakers used in the past for PA Requirements.
Only then will you get an understanding what would
do the best job. Alot of boxes you see today have the
same design scheme of yesterday.
Also, understanding how a Crossover, Parametric,
Compression, Delay, and, a EQ device works, plays
a factor.
The Paulinator
What about those Bose L1 pole speakers? What's the deal with those? (Jerry Seinfeld voice) [/B][/QUOTE]
OMNIFEX
Bose? I have yet to hear a Bose system that impressed
me in the PA Department.
I want to build some PA speakers that don't have the characteristics of normal PA speakers that I hate so much.... namely, the blaring sound of the horn at high levels, and the muddyness that I think results from assigning too much midrange to something like a 12" woofer.
OMNIFEX
Het Dude. I don't know if you know this saying.....
"The System Is Only As Good As Its User" I've
heard $5,000.00 a box speakers sound, like
garbage, and, mix n match speakers that sound
outstanding.
What you explained is a typical reply from someone
who want a good sounding system but don't know
where to start.
Your ears will guide you, not to mention, buying the
right tools to determine what will, and what will not
get the job done to your taste.
You have to have a clear understanding on what you
want. The Martin Wavefront 8 Sounds Outstanding.
However, it may not be the right type of box for your
application. This applies to Turbosound, EAW, EV, JBL,
and, Funktion One as well.
The type of application involved, the amount of speakers
you are willing to use, and, power, all plays a role on
what will become your ideal system. And lets not forget
the biggest opsticale.......... budget !
The Paulinator
I would prefer to make these speakers with a larger number of high and mid frequency drivers, something more like a line array, probably with multiple tweeters just to spread the responsibility out a bit, and keep the distortion down at higher levels.
OMNIFEX
So basically, you want to build a 4 or 5 way system.
It can be done. Just keep in mind, that the type of
gigs you're doing will determine if this is logical or
not.
The Paulinator
Anybody built PA speakers wwith sound quality in mind and come up with anything interesting?
OMNIFEX
Yes. I have. However, I find the best way to get the
sound you are looking for, is to investigate on the
type of speakers used in the past for PA Requirements.
Only then will you get an understanding what would
do the best job. Alot of boxes you see today have the
same design scheme of yesterday.
Also, understanding how a Crossover, Parametric,
Compression, Delay, and, a EQ device works, plays
a factor.
The Paulinator
What about those Bose L1 pole speakers? What's the deal with those? (Jerry Seinfeld voice) [/B][/QUOTE]
OMNIFEX
Bose? I have yet to hear a Bose system that impressed
me in the PA Department.
Actually *The Paulinator* is right on target with his critique of the majority of commercial PA systems. The "blaring horn" syndrome is unfortunately the norm & the main reason is quite simply most often do to the mixing of a HF horn with a direct radiating Mid..
Has little or nothing to do with what freq it's crossed over @ & nearly everything to do with the fact that the throw & dispersion
patterns don't match up (Can't, won't & never will, no how no way). The horn energy stays condensed in a narrower beam & will maintain high SPL for a longer distance leaving the mids far behind & sticking out like a sore thumb. Horn systems can be great if it's horn all the way or at least for both HF & MF but mixing HF horn with MF direct radiator is the most common mistake amongst commercial PA's. The only times I've heard that work acceptable is when a wide dispersion lens was used on the HF horn.
I'm currently building a simple line array club gigging PA using 3" drivers. I don't expect it to be HIFi quality (PA application doesn't really demand HFi quality). It merely has to be superior sounding than the majority of commercial PA's of the type afore mentioned. 😉
It will be a simple 2 way (3" line with sub). The narrow line should give good dispersion across a wide bandwidth & pretty good throw for good coverage with minimal deviation in freq response & SPL throughout the room (mainly for small to medium size night clubs). This is much similar to the new Bose pole systems though I had already designed this out for myself before they came out with it. I've listened to the Bose poles & they do what they're supposed to do. HIFi..? No... but much better & more pleasing sounding than 90% of the club PA systems marketed. Actually I think Bose is not really marketing as a PA but rather as a personal music system with the idea that each instrument have one.
Has little or nothing to do with what freq it's crossed over @ & nearly everything to do with the fact that the throw & dispersion
patterns don't match up (Can't, won't & never will, no how no way). The horn energy stays condensed in a narrower beam & will maintain high SPL for a longer distance leaving the mids far behind & sticking out like a sore thumb. Horn systems can be great if it's horn all the way or at least for both HF & MF but mixing HF horn with MF direct radiator is the most common mistake amongst commercial PA's. The only times I've heard that work acceptable is when a wide dispersion lens was used on the HF horn.
I'm currently building a simple line array club gigging PA using 3" drivers. I don't expect it to be HIFi quality (PA application doesn't really demand HFi quality). It merely has to be superior sounding than the majority of commercial PA's of the type afore mentioned. 😉
It will be a simple 2 way (3" line with sub). The narrow line should give good dispersion across a wide bandwidth & pretty good throw for good coverage with minimal deviation in freq response & SPL throughout the room (mainly for small to medium size night clubs). This is much similar to the new Bose pole systems though I had already designed this out for myself before they came out with it. I've listened to the Bose poles & they do what they're supposed to do. HIFi..? No... but much better & more pleasing sounding than 90% of the club PA systems marketed. Actually I think Bose is not really marketing as a PA but rather as a personal music system with the idea that each instrument have one.
Without using a line source for high frequencies, a horn is almost a necessity. Horns do two things. They increase the efficiency of the HF driver, and they control dispersion. If you don't control the dispersion pattern of the high frequencies, you can expect a great deal of microphone feedback coming from the mains. This can be reduced with EQ, but this is not an ideal solution. One solution to this problem is to use a line of high power ribbons or a line of slot-loaded compression drivers. These can be coupled to a short, wide horn to increase directivity and efficiency in the near-field.
As for mids, there are many options. It seems like your are interested in a line array, so you may want to try some of the high-powered truncated frame mids that are available on the market. Eminence has recently released a fairly affordable model, and Audax makes some excellent high-powered mids. One thing to keep in mind with a mid-array is, you need to keep the center to center distance as short as possible. Also, you have to cross them to the high frequncies below the frequency that will cause comb filtering. This distance must be closer than half the wavelenth of the cross-over frequency. You shouyld be able to achieve very high-definition vocals with a mid-array.
For the lows, there's nothing wrong with using some good 12's. They are certainly better than 15's when it comes to vocal clarity and cone breakup distortion. If you use some good 12's with a 4" VC, and don't drive them to maximum excursion, they stay fairly linear. They start to get barky when they lose pistonic motion and the edges of the cone begin to move differently than the VC. You should be able to achieve this with 4-6 woofers per side coupled in a small line. You will need at least 4 woofers to get them to couple properly as a line. You could have all three sets of drivers (highs, mids, lows) side by side. This should give you an excellent sounding high-powered PA system. For subs, you could try something like the Lab-Sub, isobaric 18's, or even 2 dual 18's per side. The subs should be crossed over at around 80 Hz. This will give you good throw from your 12's, but keep them from having to move too far to reproduce deep bass. The subs will be able to handle the "chest thumping" and low bass guitar notes in the music.
This is all based on commercial line-array systems. Unfortunatley, most of us can't affort to spend $5000 per box (you need a minimum of four boxes to get proper coupling) for a commercial line. But, good 12's can be had for $125 - $350, mid's can be gotten for $50 - $100 each, and I've seen JBL 2445's go for $100 a piece. This is still a lot of money, but it will give excellent performance and is significantly less expensive than commercial units.
Cheers,
Zach
As for mids, there are many options. It seems like your are interested in a line array, so you may want to try some of the high-powered truncated frame mids that are available on the market. Eminence has recently released a fairly affordable model, and Audax makes some excellent high-powered mids. One thing to keep in mind with a mid-array is, you need to keep the center to center distance as short as possible. Also, you have to cross them to the high frequncies below the frequency that will cause comb filtering. This distance must be closer than half the wavelenth of the cross-over frequency. You shouyld be able to achieve very high-definition vocals with a mid-array.
For the lows, there's nothing wrong with using some good 12's. They are certainly better than 15's when it comes to vocal clarity and cone breakup distortion. If you use some good 12's with a 4" VC, and don't drive them to maximum excursion, they stay fairly linear. They start to get barky when they lose pistonic motion and the edges of the cone begin to move differently than the VC. You should be able to achieve this with 4-6 woofers per side coupled in a small line. You will need at least 4 woofers to get them to couple properly as a line. You could have all three sets of drivers (highs, mids, lows) side by side. This should give you an excellent sounding high-powered PA system. For subs, you could try something like the Lab-Sub, isobaric 18's, or even 2 dual 18's per side. The subs should be crossed over at around 80 Hz. This will give you good throw from your 12's, but keep them from having to move too far to reproduce deep bass. The subs will be able to handle the "chest thumping" and low bass guitar notes in the music.
This is all based on commercial line-array systems. Unfortunatley, most of us can't affort to spend $5000 per box (you need a minimum of four boxes to get proper coupling) for a commercial line. But, good 12's can be had for $125 - $350, mid's can be gotten for $50 - $100 each, and I've seen JBL 2445's go for $100 a piece. This is still a lot of money, but it will give excellent performance and is significantly less expensive than commercial units.
Cheers,
Zach
Well, let me give a little more info. I have plenty of experience building speakers, and have built probably 5 different sets of PA speakers, starting back in high school when I knew jack squat. Strangely enough, that first pair may be the closest to the sound that I currently want to acheive, although not ideal by any means. That first set I ever made (first ANYTHING I had ever made, if I remember correctly) was a pair speakers, each one containing a large, dual throated Motorola piezo ( I'm pretty sure they still make it, saw it in MCM or PE recently), with a Pioneer sealed back 5 1/4" mid, and an 18" Eminence woofer. At the time, they were the best fricken thing myself or anyone else at my school had heard (I DJ'ed some High School dances), and although they were a bit bright (no doubt because of the piezo) they had a good, loud, well dispersed.....yet CLEAR sound.
Somebody back there mentioned that 15's don't handle vocals as well as 12's. As far as I'm concerned that will be irrelevant, because I have never in my life liked the idea of using the large woofer in the speaker to get some lower midrange out of, because I just can't imaging that being good, considering it's already so busy.
What I want to do is maybe have each speaker use at least 2 high power tweeters.... maybe bullet tweeters of some kind...I just prefer to stay away from horns (these will be used for music and not live performances)... maybe a set of 4 or more 8" woofers handling midrange and maybe a tiny bit of midbass, and possible one of those Eminence Lab 12's in the folded horn enclosure or something. I just really like the idea of using plenty of drivers so nothing is working too hard at those high volume levels.
Somebody back there mentioned that 15's don't handle vocals as well as 12's. As far as I'm concerned that will be irrelevant, because I have never in my life liked the idea of using the large woofer in the speaker to get some lower midrange out of, because I just can't imaging that being good, considering it's already so busy.
What I want to do is maybe have each speaker use at least 2 high power tweeters.... maybe bullet tweeters of some kind...I just prefer to stay away from horns (these will be used for music and not live performances)... maybe a set of 4 or more 8" woofers handling midrange and maybe a tiny bit of midbass, and possible one of those Eminence Lab 12's in the folded horn enclosure or something. I just really like the idea of using plenty of drivers so nothing is working too hard at those high volume levels.
Actually, it sounds like one bullet tweeter per speaker might be enough, if I don't cross it over too low. Has anyone ever used those Pyramid 2" and 3" bullets? It might work well to have as large a diaphram as possible for plenty of volume when crossed over high. I know Selenium has some good stuff in the bullet tweeter department, too. I just don't want HORNS. I'm sure they are good in some cases, just not for me. 🙂
Also, I am making these for a friend who runs a successful DJ business and is only moderately happy with the Carvin speakers he is using right now.
Also, I am making these for a friend who runs a successful DJ business and is only moderately happy with the Carvin speakers he is using right now.
Paulinator, I missed your previous post about wanting to be closer to a line array. Check these out:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=269-912
My current PA system is 4 cabinets * 4 of these drivers in a vertical line, plus whatever woofers I happen to have lying around. The final impedance for these cabinets is 16 ohms (but you can do 4 ohms if you like that better, or change the number of drivers... they're cheap, experiment!) so I can daisy-chain them, as many as I want. By placing the cabinets about 20' (6-7m) apart, I get *VERY* good coverage, very even, over a very large area. The crowd penetration is not as good as horns, but that is easily made up for by the fact that the cabinets cost maybe $10 each. Just add more cabinets! 4 cabinets on a side (which will cover a LOT of ground--probably 150' square area) presents a 4-ohm load to your amplifier.
I cross them over about 200hz and apply heavy EQ to them in order to get that nice high-end shimmer everyone loves, and they will play quite loud. The posted efficiency is 91dB / 1m... by my calculations, then, I'm making 105 dB of sound per cabinet at 1m, with a humble little home stereo amplifier from 1979. 😀 While 105 dB isn't as much as pro horn cabinets can make... consider the price, and consiter the advantage of wide coverage.
Distortion? What distortion? 😀
(Edit: attached the image. @#%)
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=269-912
My current PA system is 4 cabinets * 4 of these drivers in a vertical line, plus whatever woofers I happen to have lying around. The final impedance for these cabinets is 16 ohms (but you can do 4 ohms if you like that better, or change the number of drivers... they're cheap, experiment!) so I can daisy-chain them, as many as I want. By placing the cabinets about 20' (6-7m) apart, I get *VERY* good coverage, very even, over a very large area. The crowd penetration is not as good as horns, but that is easily made up for by the fact that the cabinets cost maybe $10 each. Just add more cabinets! 4 cabinets on a side (which will cover a LOT of ground--probably 150' square area) presents a 4-ohm load to your amplifier.
I cross them over about 200hz and apply heavy EQ to them in order to get that nice high-end shimmer everyone loves, and they will play quite loud. The posted efficiency is 91dB / 1m... by my calculations, then, I'm making 105 dB of sound per cabinet at 1m, with a humble little home stereo amplifier from 1979. 😀 While 105 dB isn't as much as pro horn cabinets can make... consider the price, and consiter the advantage of wide coverage.
Distortion? What distortion? 😀
(Edit: attached the image. @#%)
Attachments
I'd love to pictures of those finished cabinets if you have tham available..... that presents me with alot of possibilities...
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