My dad's digital camera got stolen a few weeks ago, or I would've already posted pics... I'll try to find another camera today and get pictures.
This 5 1/4" driver is available at MCM for about 5 bucks..... I wonder if it would be better to use something like 4 of these per speaker, or a pair of 8" drivers for more midbass....
http://mcm.newark.com/NewarkWebCommerce/mcm/en_US/support/catalog/productDetail.jsp?id=58-7693
http://mcm.newark.com/NewarkWebCommerce/mcm/en_US/support/catalog/productDetail.jsp?id=58-7693
Sorry to thread hijack, but.....
Nappylady,
I am very interested in your pa setup. Could you give some more detailed specifics? I would like to set up a good sounding PA on a minimal budget, sounds like you've already done all the leg work. Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
Dave
Nappylady,
I am very interested in your pa setup. Could you give some more detailed specifics? I would like to set up a good sounding PA on a minimal budget, sounds like you've already done all the leg work. Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
Dave
As it turns out, the girl living upstairs of me has a digital camera. 😀
These are the satellite speakers. I cross them over between 100-200hz, and they will play 105dB (by my calculations, never measured) and to my ears they sound completely clean.
I run the sound through my Behringer mixer, and I have the treble knob all the way up (that's a +15dB shelving filter with a corner freq of 12khz) and the two midrange knobs (centered at 3k and 500hz) turned to -6dB. So, the corrective EQ on these is pretty huge; once I get them to that point, though, they sound extremely sweet and pleasing to the ears.
They do require themselves to be elevated off the ground so that they're at least partly at ear level. If they're not, the sound becomes muddled and coverage suffers. I find just setting them on the table next to the potato salad works nicely.
The drivers are 4 ohms apiece, and I wire them in series for a 16 ohm load; I can wire 4 cabinets in parallel to get a 4 ohm final load, which my amplifier will happily drive to 50 watts without distortion.
The cabinets are 13" wide, 12" deep, and 28.5" tall (not counting the binding posts), made of 1/2" material. 2 of the cabinets were made from particleboard, 2 from baltic birch plywood. I haven't sat down and done a/b comparisons, but they seem to sound about the same. The baltic birch stands up to abuse *MUCH* better, but the paint is much harder to get right. Particleboard you can just spraypaint black.... baltic birch you must sand, prime, then spraypaint.
And of course, the most important ingredient to ANY low-budget speaker setup is copious amounts of black spraypaint. 😀
If I had it to do over again, I would add some dead space to the bottom of the cabinets so I could add a "speaker pole tophat" to them and mount them on top of something, so it wasn't such a challenge to get them to the right height.
I have not built subwoofers to compliment these yet. 10" drivers are on their way now from Parts Express and should be here Tuesday. I'm hoping that I can integrate the dipolar satellites with vented woofers and have things come out sounding good.
Thanks, everyone, for your interest... Please leave some of those drivers at Parts Express in case I need to build more satellites. 😀 Though I would wholeheartedly recommend any of their $0.89 speakers for this kind of experimentation!
(Edit: Forgot the image again! !#$^@)
These are the satellite speakers. I cross them over between 100-200hz, and they will play 105dB (by my calculations, never measured) and to my ears they sound completely clean.
I run the sound through my Behringer mixer, and I have the treble knob all the way up (that's a +15dB shelving filter with a corner freq of 12khz) and the two midrange knobs (centered at 3k and 500hz) turned to -6dB. So, the corrective EQ on these is pretty huge; once I get them to that point, though, they sound extremely sweet and pleasing to the ears.
They do require themselves to be elevated off the ground so that they're at least partly at ear level. If they're not, the sound becomes muddled and coverage suffers. I find just setting them on the table next to the potato salad works nicely.
The drivers are 4 ohms apiece, and I wire them in series for a 16 ohm load; I can wire 4 cabinets in parallel to get a 4 ohm final load, which my amplifier will happily drive to 50 watts without distortion.
The cabinets are 13" wide, 12" deep, and 28.5" tall (not counting the binding posts), made of 1/2" material. 2 of the cabinets were made from particleboard, 2 from baltic birch plywood. I haven't sat down and done a/b comparisons, but they seem to sound about the same. The baltic birch stands up to abuse *MUCH* better, but the paint is much harder to get right. Particleboard you can just spraypaint black.... baltic birch you must sand, prime, then spraypaint.
And of course, the most important ingredient to ANY low-budget speaker setup is copious amounts of black spraypaint. 😀
If I had it to do over again, I would add some dead space to the bottom of the cabinets so I could add a "speaker pole tophat" to them and mount them on top of something, so it wasn't such a challenge to get them to the right height.
I have not built subwoofers to compliment these yet. 10" drivers are on their way now from Parts Express and should be here Tuesday. I'm hoping that I can integrate the dipolar satellites with vented woofers and have things come out sounding good.
Thanks, everyone, for your interest... Please leave some of those drivers at Parts Express in case I need to build more satellites. 😀 Though I would wholeheartedly recommend any of their $0.89 speakers for this kind of experimentation!
(Edit: Forgot the image again! !#$^@)
Attachments
Is that kind of an idobaric set up? That probably helps them alot, since I've noticed that isobaric setups seem to redeem the simplest and cheapest of dricvers. That brings up some interesting ideas... thanks alot for the pictures. I'll post mine as I work on them.
They are dipole speakers. There's no back to the cabinets, and the "front" baffle is mounted in the middle.
Construction details...
Dipoles are known for clarity, and these are no slouches. They do require a pretty hefty treble boost, but with it in place, they sound fantastic. They just don't go low. I've been using dipole subs but I'm planning a switch to vented subs in order to use room gain to my advantage and gain better low-end extension.
The design is easy to remember. The baffle is 26.5" by 10.5" (you could make it narrower if you like; it probably won't be as stable if you do) and the driver cutouts are spaced evenly across it. The drivers are mounted using 1" 8-32 machine screws and then soldered.
The sides are 12" by 27.5". The top and bottom are 12" by 10.5". The whole thing is secured with cleats made from 2x4's that I ripped down the middle with a tablesaw. Super easy. The only problem I've had was with one cabinet; there was a rattle in it, which I fixed by cramming pieces of foam in between the cleats and the baffle. Problem solved!
This thread might do well to split in two, if there are any more questions about my sound system. By this time next week, I should have my new woofers finished, so I can post more information about how that goes, if people are interested.
Dipoles are known for clarity, and these are no slouches. They do require a pretty hefty treble boost, but with it in place, they sound fantastic. They just don't go low. I've been using dipole subs but I'm planning a switch to vented subs in order to use room gain to my advantage and gain better low-end extension.
The design is easy to remember. The baffle is 26.5" by 10.5" (you could make it narrower if you like; it probably won't be as stable if you do) and the driver cutouts are spaced evenly across it. The drivers are mounted using 1" 8-32 machine screws and then soldered.
The sides are 12" by 27.5". The top and bottom are 12" by 10.5". The whole thing is secured with cleats made from 2x4's that I ripped down the middle with a tablesaw. Super easy. The only problem I've had was with one cabinet; there was a rattle in it, which I fixed by cramming pieces of foam in between the cleats and the baffle. Problem solved!
This thread might do well to split in two, if there are any more questions about my sound system. By this time next week, I should have my new woofers finished, so I can post more information about how that goes, if people are interested.
Nappylady, have you tried putting the baffle on the front rather than in the middle? I can see a lot of problems in the mids and above with recessing the baffle, it's a good idea for dipole woofers, I'm not so sure about for midrange though.
I have seen another open baffle dipole PA speaker and it was quite interesting, with an eminence woofer. They deal with feeback problems and also let those behind the speakers hear what the audience hears.
I have seen another open baffle dipole PA speaker and it was quite interesting, with an eminence woofer. They deal with feeback problems and also let those behind the speakers hear what the audience hears.
A couple of questions that it might help to know before I buy some drivers....
1. Would I be just fine using a single high output tweeter like a Selenium bullet or something, or should I use an array of multiple tweeters so I have blenty of driver area to keep distortion at a minimum.... I really hate to hear that a speaker is working really hard.
2. If I used a whole mess of, say, 5 1/4 inch drivers, like 8 per speaker, would they have fairly good bass output if I needed it? I've never worked with large arrays before.
I've got others but I can't think of them at the moment....
1. Would I be just fine using a single high output tweeter like a Selenium bullet or something, or should I use an array of multiple tweeters so I have blenty of driver area to keep distortion at a minimum.... I really hate to hear that a speaker is working really hard.
2. If I used a whole mess of, say, 5 1/4 inch drivers, like 8 per speaker, would they have fairly good bass output if I needed it? I've never worked with large arrays before.
I've got others but I can't think of them at the moment....
Oooh, here's another one...
What about a planar ribbon tweeter like this...
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=275-085
Do those have a loud output because of the size of the diaphragm? If so, that might be a good candidate. The Dayton one handles more power than alot of more expensive ones.
What about a planar ribbon tweeter like this...
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=275-085
Do those have a loud output because of the size of the diaphragm? If so, that might be a good candidate. The Dayton one handles more power than alot of more expensive ones.
An array gives you more output to play with, and that may mean if you have some spair, you can use eq to get more bass at the cost of output. Arrays with small drivers usually need a woofer or subwoofer to augment bass output, I think this is a better way to go than using eq.
reply
I know that a slot tweeter will sound more 'hifi' than a bullet tweeter.
Beyma CP21/F is a very nice pro 1 inch slot tweeter designed for sound reinforment and studio use!😎
Fane also make a slot tweeter ST.5020 if you can't afford the expensive slot by Beyma.
Well heres a pic of the Beyma slot!
I know that a slot tweeter will sound more 'hifi' than a bullet tweeter.
Beyma CP21/F is a very nice pro 1 inch slot tweeter designed for sound reinforment and studio use!😎
Fane also make a slot tweeter ST.5020 if you can't afford the expensive slot by Beyma.
Well heres a pic of the Beyma slot!
Attachments
PA requirements
Paulinator
With you on the your originals being the best. My take was Motorola Piezo Horn, 3.5" mid and 12" sealed bass. They are now 18 years old and are used as my main Hi-Fi speakers. They still get comments as to how good they sound. Crossovers at 500Hz and 2.5K. For a really flat response the bass needs a boost at 40 HZ. or I use a 15 Sub.
Originally they were built for PA use but were not loud enough except for the smaller pub venues, where they sound great. The main problem is one of "throw" or more correctly dispersion. For places over 10M long I found it necessary to move to a horn to fill the place. This gave an overall better sound but with that narrow dispersion not so good nearer the front. I then move down to a 6.5"driver for <2.5K and 12" below 500Hz. For each venue a five way parametric is used to tailor for acoustics etc.
So for PA you need to have an idea of typical venue size. The parametric is essential and requires a good range of Q and +/-24db. It can be surprising how much equalisation typically cut is needed in the 800Hz to 4K region to get a hifi type sound in most venues using horns. usually end up with 2 or even 3 parametrics ways in this zone.
IMHO the top end really needs something like a bullet (JBL 2402) to real add that final finish, horns very rarely do the top end well despite them covering the frequency range.
For bass I like to keep it tight again with sealed 12"s, finding typical venues tend to splurge the bass. (excited room resonances lower than domestic) Again vented 15" for the real bottom end. Though recently have tried an 18" and I think with little work this will turn out better for sound quality.
Simon
Paulinator
With you on the your originals being the best. My take was Motorola Piezo Horn, 3.5" mid and 12" sealed bass. They are now 18 years old and are used as my main Hi-Fi speakers. They still get comments as to how good they sound. Crossovers at 500Hz and 2.5K. For a really flat response the bass needs a boost at 40 HZ. or I use a 15 Sub.
Originally they were built for PA use but were not loud enough except for the smaller pub venues, where they sound great. The main problem is one of "throw" or more correctly dispersion. For places over 10M long I found it necessary to move to a horn to fill the place. This gave an overall better sound but with that narrow dispersion not so good nearer the front. I then move down to a 6.5"driver for <2.5K and 12" below 500Hz. For each venue a five way parametric is used to tailor for acoustics etc.
So for PA you need to have an idea of typical venue size. The parametric is essential and requires a good range of Q and +/-24db. It can be surprising how much equalisation typically cut is needed in the 800Hz to 4K region to get a hifi type sound in most venues using horns. usually end up with 2 or even 3 parametrics ways in this zone.
IMHO the top end really needs something like a bullet (JBL 2402) to real add that final finish, horns very rarely do the top end well despite them covering the frequency range.
For bass I like to keep it tight again with sealed 12"s, finding typical venues tend to splurge the bass. (excited room resonances lower than domestic) Again vented 15" for the real bottom end. Though recently have tried an 18" and I think with little work this will turn out better for sound quality.
Simon
Ok, so I've narrowed it down to these choices:
Highs: A small array of normal domes, or a bullet/slot (probably one of the cheaper Seleniums cause I've heard they're amazing for the price.
Mid: An array of four or eight 5 1/4 in Pioneer Mids from MCM (shown in former post, good power/response), or a pair of rugged carbon fiber or maybe fiberglass or aluminum 8". I feel like the array would be better in this case, but I'm not entirely shure.
Lows: Probably a good 15 on each side, or an 18 if I can find a good one that's not too expensive.... that old 18 I had was an Eminence. It was only 75 bucks from MCM and I swear it was a god.
I really want excellent quality but I sort of pride myself in finding ways to get excellent quality without spending too much. The Pioneer mids are only 5 bucks apiece, and the Selenium Slot tweeter is 25. Anyone have any preferences here?
Highs: A small array of normal domes, or a bullet/slot (probably one of the cheaper Seleniums cause I've heard they're amazing for the price.
Mid: An array of four or eight 5 1/4 in Pioneer Mids from MCM (shown in former post, good power/response), or a pair of rugged carbon fiber or maybe fiberglass or aluminum 8". I feel like the array would be better in this case, but I'm not entirely shure.
Lows: Probably a good 15 on each side, or an 18 if I can find a good one that's not too expensive.... that old 18 I had was an Eminence. It was only 75 bucks from MCM and I swear it was a god.
I really want excellent quality but I sort of pride myself in finding ways to get excellent quality without spending too much. The Pioneer mids are only 5 bucks apiece, and the Selenium Slot tweeter is 25. Anyone have any preferences here?
The Paulinator said:
Are these inferior speakers you are talking about? The reason I'm asking is that a good PA system doesn't have those characteristics in my book. If you buy a little 2 way 15" horn loaded Yamaha type, then I understand. In your previous building(s) have you not been able to filter and or attenuate and or EQ the system to your satisfaction?
[/B][/QUOTEI would prefer to make these speakers with a larger number of high and mid frequency drivers [/B][/QUOTE]
Are you sure you want PA speakers? Will you be using it for that? It sounds to me like you are trying to get high quality high SPL.
Not necessarily something for public address. Yes, no?
Cal
Paulinator, I'd really like to recommend those Parts Express full-rangers as mids. They are quite efficient, handle a lot of power if crossed over well (if you crossed into your woofers at 300hz, I doubt you could ever blow them up) and would allow you to cross over to your supertweeters at 5-10khz reasonably. Plus the fact that they're like 1/10 the cost.
Still, whatever you think is best, go for it. I'm very interested to see what you end up going with.
Still, whatever you think is best, go for it. I'm very interested to see what you end up going with.
Whoops! I missed some replies, apparently.
I have not yet tried mounting the baffle on the front, but I can see what you mean about dispersion problems. The back end of the speakers is basically un-listenable becuase the baskets of the drivers obscure so much of the sound; since I'm not planning on having them play for both sides, I might as well try moving them to the front.
I think I'll try this today. Thanks for the idea!
I have not yet tried mounting the baffle on the front, but I can see what you mean about dispersion problems. The back end of the speakers is basically un-listenable becuase the baskets of the drivers obscure so much of the sound; since I'm not planning on having them play for both sides, I might as well try moving them to the front.
I think I'll try this today. Thanks for the idea!
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