Multi sub concept gives you less bass spl variations in contrast to a pair of stereo speakers. You get the convenience of hearing about the same bass quality at different spots in your room. I have never felt like employing subs because I get the desired quality at my listening place with a full range loudspeaker which prefectly satisfies my needs. There is a group of audiophiles prefering OB concept, some prefer PA driver technology in horns for that extra spl and certain directivity. You should keep an open mind to each of these concepts and somehow try for yourself what might work for you.
Most of 'high end' is audio jewelry there is nothing magic about the design of a loudspeaker and in many ways the design of even a ludicrously expensive traditional tower speaker is primitive. Using an engineering approach and quantifying what you want from a design with measurable properties that correlate with listening preferences (See Toole) and desired use of the speaker works. It might be hard to match something like this DIY:
Genelec 8341A SAM™ Studio Monitor Review | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum
but the advantage of DIY is that your use case probably doesn't exactly fit that speaker and you can (if your labor is free) do it for much less money (and its fun).
*Double Bass or SBA (with absorber) will give the most even bass if your room is suitable, I'm a big fan of thinking of the room and speakers as a total system and trying to use room boundaries.
Genelec 8341A SAM™ Studio Monitor Review | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum
but the advantage of DIY is that your use case probably doesn't exactly fit that speaker and you can (if your labor is free) do it for much less money (and its fun).
*Double Bass or SBA (with absorber) will give the most even bass if your room is suitable, I'm a big fan of thinking of the room and speakers as a total system and trying to use room boundaries.
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To reference Im still experimenting with Multisub, so I have no final conclusion, other than pre test, give me good results.
There is a HUGE load of drivers available for the DIY'er today. Though of the shelf TS parameters, most are perfectly fine for DIY. Especially if going active. It is also very easy to buy drivers that betters what is in so called high-end speakers (exept in extreme scenarios, where a big part of the expenses are put into finish of the whole thing).
I think a PC/laptop-soundcard is fine. This way you can do infinite experiments. Its been like that for 15 years, at least. However, you risk spending a lot of time fixing all kinds of weird issues, and how about when you want another source than PC? And when a drivers messes all things up. Yes there is some card that work OK in regards to changing sources, but I find it a PITY to do multi-way via PC. Having neglegted all kind of weird issues with hiss, crackling noise and so on.
IMO go for a dedicated DSP. I see no better value right now than Hypex Fusion. Yes, software is a little complicated at first, but it is no hassle compared to PC.
There is a HUGE load of drivers available for the DIY'er today. Though of the shelf TS parameters, most are perfectly fine for DIY. Especially if going active. It is also very easy to buy drivers that betters what is in so called high-end speakers (exept in extreme scenarios, where a big part of the expenses are put into finish of the whole thing).
I think a PC/laptop-soundcard is fine. This way you can do infinite experiments. Its been like that for 15 years, at least. However, you risk spending a lot of time fixing all kinds of weird issues, and how about when you want another source than PC? And when a drivers messes all things up. Yes there is some card that work OK in regards to changing sources, but I find it a PITY to do multi-way via PC. Having neglegted all kind of weird issues with hiss, crackling noise and so on.
IMO go for a dedicated DSP. I see no better value right now than Hypex Fusion. Yes, software is a little complicated at first, but it is no hassle compared to PC.
Hi Phobic.
Some suggestion.
DSP and crossover in PC running Windows. Some players offer this option, Foobar, Jriver, HqPayer. I´m using dedicated very powerfull crossover and DSP software, Dephonica.
Multichanel hig quality DAC, 8 Channels 384kHz 32bit ES9038PRO PCM DXD DSD Audio DAC - DIYINHK
Also you can use professional multichannel sound cards.
Speakers:
Mid Woofer. - Purify audio, Audio Technology, Accuton ......
Twitters. - ATM Mundof, SB acoustic berilium, Raal, Bliesma, ....
Compression motors and 15" woofer. TAD
Power amplifier. For multichannel aplications, probably, gainclone amplifier is enough Build your own state-of-the-art audio amplifiers – Neurochrome Audio
Class D amplifiers.- Purify, Hypex, Pascal
Apollon Audio Hypex Based Class D Handbuilt Amplifiers
Active DSP: Please post your software and equipment
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pc-...crossovers-correction-etc-18.html#post6122828
http://www.kravchenko-audio.com/tad-tl-1601.html
http://www.hornstudio.de/tad.htm
Regards
Some suggestion.
DSP and crossover in PC running Windows. Some players offer this option, Foobar, Jriver, HqPayer. I´m using dedicated very powerfull crossover and DSP software, Dephonica.
Multichanel hig quality DAC, 8 Channels 384kHz 32bit ES9038PRO PCM DXD DSD Audio DAC - DIYINHK
Also you can use professional multichannel sound cards.
Speakers:
Mid Woofer. - Purify audio, Audio Technology, Accuton ......
Twitters. - ATM Mundof, SB acoustic berilium, Raal, Bliesma, ....
Compression motors and 15" woofer. TAD
Power amplifier. For multichannel aplications, probably, gainclone amplifier is enough Build your own state-of-the-art audio amplifiers – Neurochrome Audio
Class D amplifiers.- Purify, Hypex, Pascal
Apollon Audio Hypex Based Class D Handbuilt Amplifiers
Active DSP: Please post your software and equipment
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pc-...crossovers-correction-etc-18.html#post6122828
http://www.kravchenko-audio.com/tad-tl-1601.html
http://www.hornstudio.de/tad.htm
Regards
that's pretty much where my head is, I've already played around with DSP and have room treatment already - it just needs a rework once I've finished building my listening room. Plan is to try to tackle the room with subs 1st though to minimise the treatment needed.
I'm definitely open to trying different things, in fact I can see myself with multiple mains in the future, keeping the bass on the subs and away from the mains is quite appealing for that reason.
I've been reading more about the different approaches to managing subs.
DBA seems very interesting, Geddes is less appealing given given the use of full range main speakers, I need to refresh memory but IIRC Welti didn't need full range mains but might need a lot more subs.
Need to read more about DBA and wall mounted subs, I've also been reading about in-wall mounting (soffit), lots to consider.
I'll confess to being a computer geek, comp science degree and 20+ years telecoms experience.
I don't like the idea of doing this with a PC though 🙁
I'd much rather go for a high quality DSP solution, I'm an endless tweaker so will want to pick something which gives me a lot of control and ability to change things.
having said that I need to figure out what the DSP solution is going to look like here, I'm also not against buying a miniDSP as a short term answer, and then moving it on at a later date if/when I out grow it.
whatever I pick is ultimately going to be driven by sound quality though.
some really interesting links there thanks a lot, the TAD TL-1601's in particular look amazing, wow!
lots to think about
Have you come across Troels Gravesen's site? I'd be surprised if you haven't seen something of interest there:
DIY-Loudspeakers
DIY-Loudspeakers
For me I prefer dedicated outboard DSP for low latency (IE I can use the same system with live sound and if I'm watching a film) and reliability. PC is the way to go for massive FIR filter lengths and potentially higher quality D/A (although that ASC48 must be pretty close with >118dBa typical dynamic range).
With high end bass drivers its worth considering if you can just lower distortion by using more drivers for the same or less cost.
I like compression drivers and horns they do sound different to dome tweeters (probably dispersion differences but could also be increased dynamic range and resonances inside the horn/compression driver). On paper ribbon tweeters are expensive and not that great (large, have to cross high, lower maximum output) but they also have typically very little stored energy so clean CSD and some people think they sound great (I haven't had the opportunity to listen to a high end ribbon setup). So quickly you see even with the choice of tweeter there is an element of preference that's hard to quantify and its worth listening to some less common options.
For subs there way easier to quantify you should check out data-bass and the measurements there for an understanding of the parameters important in specifying a subbass system:
Data-Bass: Subwoofer Measurements
With high end bass drivers its worth considering if you can just lower distortion by using more drivers for the same or less cost.
I like compression drivers and horns they do sound different to dome tweeters (probably dispersion differences but could also be increased dynamic range and resonances inside the horn/compression driver). On paper ribbon tweeters are expensive and not that great (large, have to cross high, lower maximum output) but they also have typically very little stored energy so clean CSD and some people think they sound great (I haven't had the opportunity to listen to a high end ribbon setup). So quickly you see even with the choice of tweeter there is an element of preference that's hard to quantify and its worth listening to some less common options.
For subs there way easier to quantify you should check out data-bass and the measurements there for an understanding of the parameters important in specifying a subbass system:
Data-Bass: Subwoofer Measurements
yes I have, the designs look great.
what I'm struggling with is lack of understanding and how to decide on a design that's going to be "world class".
I just don't have the experience to understand if Troel's designs are great, or amazing, I know nothing about individual drivers or the pro/cons of certain designs.
it's something I need to understand how to evaluate without being able to listen in person while lockdown still goes on.
right now all I'm capable of doing is looking at the measurements to (badly) interpret what I see, then it's down to looking at prices, reading reviews where I can, and making some kind of subjective decide on the looks.
would welcome some advice how to better evaluate things, I'm pretty much in the dark a lot of the time.
Subscribe to voice coil magazine (its free), it has driver measurements if you read them you will begin to see the differences between a top end driver and a lesser driver:
Voice Coil Magazine | audioXpress
Voice Coil Magazine | audioXpress
thanks, I've subscribed.
the next issue I see though is that finding a great driver doesn't mean I can find a great pre-made design.
I guess it's just a case of shortlisting the drivers and searching?
I think Hypex is a safe bet. Hypex is not meant to be the best there is, but it sure is better than miniDSP. If you like to go to the next level, you can always try things like JRiver with a huge range of VST plugin - To my finding, most makes the sound a little strange.
As with what you prefer, only way to find out, is to listen on setups. For instance, some like vented systems. For a beginner these can be a little difficult to tune the right way.
Closed cabinet is far easier and I also prefer this for bass. In regards to sub, I would advise you to go that direction. Even better is a closed cabinet, with two drivers on each side. This eliminates most vibrations.
As with what you prefer, only way to find out, is to listen on setups. For instance, some like vented systems. For a beginner these can be a little difficult to tune the right way.
Closed cabinet is far easier and I also prefer this for bass. In regards to sub, I would advise you to go that direction. Even better is a closed cabinet, with two drivers on each side. This eliminates most vibrations.
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I feel the same way....i simply don't trust a PC for speaker management, unless it's not connected to the net, not subject to OS or driver updates, etc.
I've used JRiver and VST Convolver with success, but always with a prosound processor or mixer, between the PC outputs and amps inputs.
Also used miniDSP OpenDRC's, as well as Behringer DCX2496 and the Linea Research ASC-48 mentioned earlier in this thread (fine piece of gear).
If you enjoy endless tweaking and experimenting, by far the easiest, most flexible, and most powerful high quality DSP solution I've found is the Q-Sys Core 110f.
It's an open architecture DSP, so you build what you need like in the diagram below I'm currently running for some 4-ways.
Every block in the schematic opens up for realtime adjustment or observation, like in second snip showing a FIR filter block and an amplifier block.
It allows instantaneous changes between even completely different processing designs...say for instance, comparing the exact same filter sets of EQ's and xovers, implemented IIR versus FIR.
Best way to see if interested is take the online Q-Sys Designer tutorials.
If so, Core110f's go used on ebay for around $1250. There's always some priced way higher, but they're just there to pick off a sucker. Used are very robust, I'd have no worries from a reputable seller.
Attachments
I've spent most of the day reading about different sub approaches and I'm very much liking DBA.
What I'm struggling to find are designs for wall mounted subs, from what I've read there are drivers which are suitable for wall mounting, but I'm confused as to what's the right approach for cabinets.
I'm also pondering given this is 2.1 setup if it might be better to go for 6 smaller subs per wall, or 4 larger subs per wall. Quality versus price to achieve the same loudness given I don't quite need as much bass extension as you would in a 5.1 movie setup.
the Q-sys looks amazing, very powerful, just what I had in mind.
dumb question but given I'm going DSP and don't need a passive crossover, is the cabinet design the only real thing to consider for the sub? is there any other circuitry usually put in the sub between the driver and power amp? I'm struggling to think of anything that's needed other than terminals and wire direct to the driver
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Cool, then i'm glad i posted it...
Nope...nothing goes between amp and sub driver(s)
A fwiw aside, i would not use a plate amp.
Limits experimentation...for instance I used the same sub drivers in sealed, vented, and dual push-push slot loaded.
Would have been a real pain to move a plate amp around to each box, or very expensive to plate amp each one.
Plus, most plate amps aren't sealed and they need to breathe to stay cool....so they need their own vented box isolated from speak box volume.
I'm done with plate amps, unless they seal and have external heat sinks like found in prosound boxes. Even then, I dunno......
All those subwoofer sound way overkill. If lucky, only two in total in necessary. Look here:
https://www.harman.com/documents/multsubs_0.pdf
Great shallow subwoofers is here:
Shallow Subwoofers – Sbacoustics
Maybe you find that you dont get better performance, just throwing subwoofers in the room.
Rule of thump in this hobby is that practice with things, makes perfect. You can prepare/read forever and then when you have spent 4 weeks building a cabinet og waiting 2 month on a driver, the result may just be mediocre.
Also, subwoofers are not a substitute for building small mains. Geddes seem to prefer using mains that do not go very low. In you room around 20 squaremeters, I would say that a 10" woofer is minimum. Better is 2*8", 12" or 15" 🙂
Even a 8" is a whole other thing than a 6" in perceived quality.
https://www.harman.com/documents/multsubs_0.pdf
Great shallow subwoofers is here:
Shallow Subwoofers – Sbacoustics
Maybe you find that you dont get better performance, just throwing subwoofers in the room.
Rule of thump in this hobby is that practice with things, makes perfect. You can prepare/read forever and then when you have spent 4 weeks building a cabinet og waiting 2 month on a driver, the result may just be mediocre.
Also, subwoofers are not a substitute for building small mains. Geddes seem to prefer using mains that do not go very low. In you room around 20 squaremeters, I would say that a 10" woofer is minimum. Better is 2*8", 12" or 15" 🙂
Even a 8" is a whole other thing than a 6" in perceived quality.
Do you know how many FIR taps have mini DSP?. About 4.000.
Dephonica have up to 128.000.
PC solution is much more powerfull.
Latency is no matter to play music. Is only important for live musicians.
Regards
Depends on the miniDSP unit huh?
The OpenDRCs i use have 6144 taps @ 48 kHz.
PC of course has capability for crazy amount of taps.
I used a little Celeron NUC to handle 65k taps, 8-ch.
Must say, once past 65k taps @ 48kHz, it seems completely inconsequential in terms of frequency resolution....and that is when staying in strict linear phase mode with impulse centering.
In mixed phase mode, where impulse moved closer to start, i currently believe 16-32k @ 48kHz taps is more than ever needed for fine low frequency resolution..
If you twist my arm, I might be willing to say sampling @ 96k would help, and then need a 2X tap count vs 48kHz.
That currently surely requires a PC ...because there is nothing like that in the marketplace in a standalone processor.
But whether PC or otherwise, anything beyond 96k sampling is pure audiophool imnsho.
An elegant FIR implementation shows that, much like like multi-time-window FFT measurement some programs do, because the program will be decimating sampling rates if the processor/FPGA is MFLOP resource constrained.
Anyway, back to your post...
Dephonica looks very interesting.
Please help me with a couple of specs on the website that don't make sense to me..
Low latency: about 50 msec when using IIR filters and crossover output stream into ASIO device
That seems like a very high latency for an IIR mode.
And this from the FAQ section: For example, FIR filter with 8000 taps adds about 250 msec of latency.
That equates to an 8000 tap delay using a 32k sampling rate, which seems unheard of?
What are they saying, you think?
What sampling rate(s) are available?
What are you using? How many taps?
And yes, latency is super important for live musicians.
It's why i've tried to learn to integrate both IIR low freq and FIR past that, to bring better quality to live and keep low latency.
I guess video sync can be an issue too....but i'm not into home theater, so i leave that to others more knowledgeable there...
The OpenDRCs i use have 6144 taps @ 48 kHz.
PC of course has capability for crazy amount of taps.
I used a little Celeron NUC to handle 65k taps, 8-ch.
Must say, once past 65k taps @ 48kHz, it seems completely inconsequential in terms of frequency resolution....and that is when staying in strict linear phase mode with impulse centering.
In mixed phase mode, where impulse moved closer to start, i currently believe 16-32k @ 48kHz taps is more than ever needed for fine low frequency resolution..
If you twist my arm, I might be willing to say sampling @ 96k would help, and then need a 2X tap count vs 48kHz.
That currently surely requires a PC ...because there is nothing like that in the marketplace in a standalone processor.
But whether PC or otherwise, anything beyond 96k sampling is pure audiophool imnsho.
An elegant FIR implementation shows that, much like like multi-time-window FFT measurement some programs do, because the program will be decimating sampling rates if the processor/FPGA is MFLOP resource constrained.
Anyway, back to your post...
Dephonica looks very interesting.
Please help me with a couple of specs on the website that don't make sense to me..
Low latency: about 50 msec when using IIR filters and crossover output stream into ASIO device
That seems like a very high latency for an IIR mode.
And this from the FAQ section: For example, FIR filter with 8000 taps adds about 250 msec of latency.
That equates to an 8000 tap delay using a 32k sampling rate, which seems unheard of?
What are they saying, you think?
What sampling rate(s) are available?
What are you using? How many taps?
And yes, latency is super important for live musicians.
It's why i've tried to learn to integrate both IIR low freq and FIR past that, to bring better quality to live and keep low latency.
I guess video sync can be an issue too....but i'm not into home theater, so i leave that to others more knowledgeable there...
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you might want to plan from the very beginning to be modular and upgradeable. I am very enthusiastic about the Hypex nCore amps (I use the FA253). If you built the amps into a low speaker stand, you have the flexibility of changing the mains and the subs without having to uninstall and reinstall the amplifiers. This is how I did my system:
New active 3-Way, Hypex and SB
And now I am in the process of upgrading the mains with a new cabinet and higher quality drivers. New active Satori Textreme
You have a lot of budget available, which removes several hurdles, but there are many other challenges before you which are not funding related. After reading your posts, I think one of your biggest challenges is that you do not yet know what kind of loudspeaker you prefer. Or put another way, which attributes of speaker excellence are most important to you... Knowing this leads some people to pursue something like a JBL M2 or Gedlee Summa, while others pursue somthing like a Magico M3 or KEF blade. No one can tell you what your preference is, you must discover that.
j.
New active 3-Way, Hypex and SB
And now I am in the process of upgrading the mains with a new cabinet and higher quality drivers. New active Satori Textreme
You have a lot of budget available, which removes several hurdles, but there are many other challenges before you which are not funding related. After reading your posts, I think one of your biggest challenges is that you do not yet know what kind of loudspeaker you prefer. Or put another way, which attributes of speaker excellence are most important to you... Knowing this leads some people to pursue something like a JBL M2 or Gedlee Summa, while others pursue somthing like a Magico M3 or KEF blade. No one can tell you what your preference is, you must discover that.
j.
I agree with hifijim 🙂
You need to try different things, like swapping drivers, filters, cabinets - more than ones - actually many times. Cause this will help you get way more in touch with what you like and prefer.
The fusion amp is a good little all-in-one package. And in the beginning, it will surely be your luck and hard work in understanding how to use it - that will set the limits.
Look at Kii3 - 70$ tweeter. Yep - but they did it right - for a lot of people to be thrilled with the performance.
So a lot of the burden to create world class sound.... lies on your shoulders - in choices - in skill... not necessarily in the this or that driver, amp or DSP.
You need to try different things, like swapping drivers, filters, cabinets - more than ones - actually many times. Cause this will help you get way more in touch with what you like and prefer.
The fusion amp is a good little all-in-one package. And in the beginning, it will surely be your luck and hard work in understanding how to use it - that will set the limits.
Look at Kii3 - 70$ tweeter. Yep - but they did it right - for a lot of people to be thrilled with the performance.
So a lot of the burden to create world class sound.... lies on your shoulders - in choices - in skill... not necessarily in the this or that driver, amp or DSP.