hello all-
im looking to build a new project (done some 3 way seas excel speakers last year, but i crave a much more fast, attacking soundfor rock music, with a reasonable high output. i have room to house something like the troels gravesen dtqwt and i like the idea of these but i would like some advice from some experenced people!
what about a line array? whats a good proven design of this- and whats the pros/cons of this design-i know there high efficiancy-and have heard this may help in my design aims.
my rooms is about 400m3(high celing)
thanks peeps!
im looking to build a new project (done some 3 way seas excel speakers last year, but i crave a much more fast, attacking soundfor rock music, with a reasonable high output. i have room to house something like the troels gravesen dtqwt and i like the idea of these but i would like some advice from some experenced people!
what about a line array? whats a good proven design of this- and whats the pros/cons of this design-i know there high efficiancy-and have heard this may help in my design aims.
my rooms is about 400m3(high celing)
thanks peeps!
SPL!
There seems to be three classifications of drivers out there.
First off is the esoteric high definition types, your Seas' is a prime example accurate in the extreme, but it appears a sacrifice in SPL levels....The second what often is noted as The "Pro" series. These are used in the industry for sound reinforcements as in concerts, cinemas ..indoors and outdoors. While not usually as "accurate" they jump SPL levels to Appx. 98-102 DB. The Third is whats called "musical" drivers, they are used in guitar stacks, lead, bass and vocals. This class is the highest of all at 107Db and up. Unfortunatley they have a distinct 'sound' to them & this 'type' of sound is incorporated into the bands style of music.
So to summarize
1st. 82-94 Db
2nd. 94-102Db
3rd 102-? Db
What you want is the second class, loud but less "accurate".
The rub is to make this class the most accurate possible.
I would guess the line array that you note does not meet this criterion.
______________________________________Rick........
There seems to be three classifications of drivers out there.
First off is the esoteric high definition types, your Seas' is a prime example accurate in the extreme, but it appears a sacrifice in SPL levels....The second what often is noted as The "Pro" series. These are used in the industry for sound reinforcements as in concerts, cinemas ..indoors and outdoors. While not usually as "accurate" they jump SPL levels to Appx. 98-102 DB. The Third is whats called "musical" drivers, they are used in guitar stacks, lead, bass and vocals. This class is the highest of all at 107Db and up. Unfortunatley they have a distinct 'sound' to them & this 'type' of sound is incorporated into the bands style of music.
So to summarize
1st. 82-94 Db
2nd. 94-102Db
3rd 102-? Db
What you want is the second class, loud but less "accurate".
The rub is to make this class the most accurate possible.
I would guess the line array that you note does not meet this criterion.
______________________________________Rick........
why not? line arrays by design are high efficiency because they use multiple drivers and if they are composed of high quality drivers and well executed, they can be highly accurate
I design backloaded horns to.
You can visit fostex and copy a good design.
But the most simple way to get good low frequncy and flat response is a high spl bass reflex. I found a very good performing low priced chassis in the Monacor sph275c.
Two of those in a 65liter box. You get a 95dB/1wmtr !! straight to 50Hz. -6dB 41 Hz very good with such a small volume. I advise to combine it with a Eminence atp150 tested very good and cost extreme low use a lpad.
this design will cost about 300 euro on drivers 100 euro wood gleu and terminals and there you are 800 euro for a set high and high spl carbon cone loudspeakers.
These will look sexy to with a sturdy aluminium frame.
Vents round 10,2cm 14,1cm long
You can visit fostex and copy a good design.
But the most simple way to get good low frequncy and flat response is a high spl bass reflex. I found a very good performing low priced chassis in the Monacor sph275c.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Two of those in a 65liter box. You get a 95dB/1wmtr !! straight to 50Hz. -6dB 41 Hz very good with such a small volume. I advise to combine it with a Eminence atp150 tested very good and cost extreme low use a lpad.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
this design will cost about 300 euro on drivers 100 euro wood gleu and terminals and there you are 800 euro for a set high and high spl carbon cone loudspeakers.
These will look sexy to with a sturdy aluminium frame.
Vents round 10,2cm 14,1cm long
Attachments
lbstyling said:
With Troels own words
"To my ears, this is the best speaker I have ever made"
Which ought to mean something 😉
Btw, Gedlees designs seems to winn peoples harts, despite the quality issues
But I cant really suggest anything as I only know my own speakers
Thing is that if we were looking fore finished commercial speakers we wouldnt buy anything before listening...but in this DIY world we build before listening, mostly based on reputation and measurements, which present a problem as they all sound different, despite the good measurements
Just because I like a certain speaker doesnt mean you will like it too
SPl
Myself I was thinking of doing a tower at 48"H x 18"W x 22"D with a 15"W, 8"M, & horn atop.
The choices are www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=264-338 for the woofer, www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=294-652 for the midrange........still contemplating the large horn tweet.
As for line arrays the trouble as I see it, the multiple drivers at ultra high quality can add up expense very quickly.........up and out of sight. Adding up drivers doesn't make them more efficient......thay can play very loud but will suck up great sums of power to do so.
Note this image from Parts Express.com projects site, They say they will play very loud but are consuming some 1400 Watts.
____________________________________________Rick........
Myself I was thinking of doing a tower at 48"H x 18"W x 22"D with a 15"W, 8"M, & horn atop.
The choices are www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=264-338 for the woofer, www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=294-652 for the midrange........still contemplating the large horn tweet.
As for line arrays the trouble as I see it, the multiple drivers at ultra high quality can add up expense very quickly.........up and out of sight. Adding up drivers doesn't make them more efficient......thay can play very loud but will suck up great sums of power to do so.
Note this image from Parts Express.com projects site, They say they will play very loud but are consuming some 1400 Watts.
____________________________________________Rick........
Attachments
Re: SPl
use this one on top doesn't cost a ****. And good performance. filter the atp80 5kHz 1oct. And do not filter the midrange speaker and use its own Le to filter above 4khz see the spl grafic off the BC.
Will perform very good almost no filter components and fase shift
Richard Ellis said:
use this one on top doesn't cost a ****. And good performance. filter the atp80 5kHz 1oct. And do not filter the midrange speaker and use its own Le to filter above 4khz see the spl grafic off the BC.
Will perform very good almost no filter components and fase shift
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
If I was doing this as a first project I'd go for a pair of JBL 2226's per side topped with an Altec 511B horn (with decent Altec driver)
A pair of decent pro amps to power it all and it should sound very good and dynamic. (I'd use a DCX2496 as XO)
Rob.
A pair of decent pro amps to power it all and it should sound very good and dynamic. (I'd use a DCX2496 as XO)
Rob.
Re: SPL!
I do not like line arrays (been there done that), but to suggest something is inaccurate because it is efficient is ignorant.Richard Ellis said:
There are quite a few things to look at here. First you need to define what high efficiency is for you. You need to look at 1w/1m vs 2.83V sensitivity as well. A 4ohm driver will be roughly 3dB more sensitive at 2.83V than an 8ohm driver. How loud do you wish to play? What kind of power do you have available? Your room sounds extremely large if it is 400 cubic m. Can you provide dimensions for the room?
For high frequency, the highest efficiency and highest output option is going to be a compression driver on a horn or waveguide. Unfortunately the waveguide options aren't too available. The DDS Eng-90 appeared to be a good option but the quality control has been horrible so I don't see being able to consider it. The 18sound XT1464 horn is a decent option but they don't seem to be available. The XT1086 could be a good option in a 3way or a 2way with a driver like our TD12M that can play to 4KHz on axis. The Azurahorns are another option but expensive. Some people are using vintage horns like the various JBL ones, although I don't consider those to be great options compared to current offerings. The TAD horns would be another possible option.
If you aren't looking at a horn, then the next option is for ribbon drivers. The Fountek NeoPro5i, Aurum Cantus, RAAL, Raven, etc can all get you in the mid 90's at 1w/1m.
For woofers, there are many pro audio woofers for high efficiency. The difficulty is finding ones that sound good at the same time and have enough bandwidth. I'd put our TD15M at the top of that list in terms of high frequency extension, excursion, low distortion, and overall low power compression. You can read about the motor design and why our woofers are so highly regarded here:
http://www.aespeakers.com/Lambda001-1.php
We have many using them for critical monitoring in recording studios, high end theaters, and even live sound use. The following shows a pair of the TD15M's with a BMS coax compression driver on 18sound XT1464 horn. This is a system that is used to provide live sound in up to a 1200-1500seat venues along with the smaller center fills with a pair of TD12M's. Something like this could clearly fill any size room you may have and sound quite good doing it.
http://www.aespeakers.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1690
Here is a link to a thread that went on at AVS for quite awhile that you may want to look at also. A few were doing a high efficiency 3way using the TD woofers, various pro audio mids and most ended up with the fountek NeoPro5i ribbon. Some went with multiple TD12S's, our new 6.5" midrange, and the Fountek Ribbon. Line arrays were discussed as well.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1035126
The issue we ran into originally was finding a good 6.5" driver that matched the TD woofers and the options like the NeoPro51, RAAL ribbon, etc. The 18sound 6ND410 looked to be a good option but had a horrible dustcap breakup. We ended up designing our new TD6.5M to bridge the gap in the 3way.
Line arrays can be an option. I have done many in the past. The issue is that when doing an array like this, you still need to start out with high efficiency drivers. Ribbons in an array don't add sensitivity really, especially not at higher frequencies where you have comb filtering issues and can actually lose output. You do however have much lower excursion requirements at the lower frequencies when using the multiple drivers.
John
For high frequency, the highest efficiency and highest output option is going to be a compression driver on a horn or waveguide. Unfortunately the waveguide options aren't too available. The DDS Eng-90 appeared to be a good option but the quality control has been horrible so I don't see being able to consider it. The 18sound XT1464 horn is a decent option but they don't seem to be available. The XT1086 could be a good option in a 3way or a 2way with a driver like our TD12M that can play to 4KHz on axis. The Azurahorns are another option but expensive. Some people are using vintage horns like the various JBL ones, although I don't consider those to be great options compared to current offerings. The TAD horns would be another possible option.
If you aren't looking at a horn, then the next option is for ribbon drivers. The Fountek NeoPro5i, Aurum Cantus, RAAL, Raven, etc can all get you in the mid 90's at 1w/1m.
For woofers, there are many pro audio woofers for high efficiency. The difficulty is finding ones that sound good at the same time and have enough bandwidth. I'd put our TD15M at the top of that list in terms of high frequency extension, excursion, low distortion, and overall low power compression. You can read about the motor design and why our woofers are so highly regarded here:
http://www.aespeakers.com/Lambda001-1.php
We have many using them for critical monitoring in recording studios, high end theaters, and even live sound use. The following shows a pair of the TD15M's with a BMS coax compression driver on 18sound XT1464 horn. This is a system that is used to provide live sound in up to a 1200-1500seat venues along with the smaller center fills with a pair of TD12M's. Something like this could clearly fill any size room you may have and sound quite good doing it.
http://www.aespeakers.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1690
Here is a link to a thread that went on at AVS for quite awhile that you may want to look at also. A few were doing a high efficiency 3way using the TD woofers, various pro audio mids and most ended up with the fountek NeoPro5i ribbon. Some went with multiple TD12S's, our new 6.5" midrange, and the Fountek Ribbon. Line arrays were discussed as well.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1035126
The issue we ran into originally was finding a good 6.5" driver that matched the TD woofers and the options like the NeoPro51, RAAL ribbon, etc. The 18sound 6ND410 looked to be a good option but had a horrible dustcap breakup. We ended up designing our new TD6.5M to bridge the gap in the 3way.
Line arrays can be an option. I have done many in the past. The issue is that when doing an array like this, you still need to start out with high efficiency drivers. Ribbons in an array don't add sensitivity really, especially not at higher frequencies where you have comb filtering issues and can actually lose output. You do however have much lower excursion requirements at the lower frequencies when using the multiple drivers.
John
klipsch forte
Sometimes revisiting those vintage speakers is worth the trip.
I picked up a pair of Klipsch Fortes for $200. I redid the crossover and I am really enjoying them. Not a bad bang-for-the-buck. My reference speakers are Apogee Studio Grands.
Sometimes revisiting those vintage speakers is worth the trip.
I picked up a pair of Klipsch Fortes for $200. I redid the crossover and I am really enjoying them. Not a bad bang-for-the-buck. My reference speakers are Apogee Studio Grands.
the room is 9m x 9m x4.5m and a hexagon shape with no parallel walls-not even floor and celing!
i have a parasound halo a51 amplifier, 250wrms @8ohms +10w class A bias
the efficiancy itself isnt of too much concern-as i would imagine the power will compensate somewhat.
from research it looks like i want A HIGH BL FACTOR and LOW CONE MASS to get me a dry, fast sound-aka- neat motive-except with lower extention and higher output.
i want to be able to track any sound within a recording regardless of whats going on -so although i dont listen to metalica for instance-i would assume a speaker that will make sence and keep a firm sence of control while playing this + heavy orchestral work-(holst -the planets??)-would meet my goals!
size doesnt matter too much
what do you think?
i have a parasound halo a51 amplifier, 250wrms @8ohms +10w class A bias
the efficiancy itself isnt of too much concern-as i would imagine the power will compensate somewhat.
from research it looks like i want A HIGH BL FACTOR and LOW CONE MASS to get me a dry, fast sound-aka- neat motive-except with lower extention and higher output.
i want to be able to track any sound within a recording regardless of whats going on -so although i dont listen to metalica for instance-i would assume a speaker that will make sence and keep a firm sence of control while playing this + heavy orchestral work-(holst -the planets??)-would meet my goals!
size doesnt matter too much
what do you think?
lbstyling said:
This is one of the most often stated issues that has nothing to do with the performance of a woofer. I often link people to this paper called "BL/Mms = Nonsense" from the old Lambda site to give a better understanding of the bandwidth of a driver:
http://web.archive.org/web/20010810141852/lambdacoustics.com/library/whitepapers/bl_mms.htm
As stated in the paper, Bl without respect to Re has no value on it's own. They are in proportion to each other. I can take a dual VC driver and run coils in series to get 2x the BL from the coils in parallel but it performs exactly the same. Bl with respect to Re always stays the same.
Again, take a look through the Lambda 001 motor paper which explains a lot about what needs to be done for low distortion and high bandwidth.
John
the paper concludes that in order to get the force needed for a fast driver you need to look for low inductance first-
could anyone give me an example of what this would be? in say a 6.5 inch driver- how low is low?
i was under the impression low inductance would mean a small magnet-isnt that the opposite to what i want?
presumably it would want a high bl factor aswel then?
could anyone give me an example of what this would be? in say a 6.5 inch driver- how low is low?
i was under the impression low inductance would mean a small magnet-isnt that the opposite to what i want?
presumably it would want a high bl factor aswel then?
lbstyling said:
Inductance is not related to the magnet at all. Think of the voice coil as an inductor. The more turns of wire, the higher the inductance. Now slide that inductor over a steel core (the pole in the woofer) and inductance is much higher than in an air core. The copper sleeve we do on our drivers then lower the inductance by basically making the coil act more like an air core.
Low is a relative term. Again you have to look in proportion to the Re of the driver. For example though our new TD6.5M has Le of .081mH. That is very low compared to the likes of the B&C 6MD38 at .25mH, 18sound 6nd410 at .67mH, etc.
Again, Bl without respect to LE tells nothing. Bl^2/Re is the way to compare motor strength, but higher motor strength alone isn't always better. It really depends on the intended application.
John
John, I was wondering if you may be offering a reference two or three way plan for your new 6.5'' at some point? Dave🙂
thankyou for the references!
so using the formula mentioned here Bl^2/Re to give me a strong motor control on damping (not interested in a high xmax) combined with a light cone in a 6.5 inch driver what comes up as particular good driver for this application- anyone know?
so using the formula mentioned here Bl^2/Re to give me a strong motor control on damping (not interested in a high xmax) combined with a light cone in a 6.5 inch driver what comes up as particular good driver for this application- anyone know?
- Status
- Not open for further replies.