Hi,
I'm starting my first PA system build and was hoping to get some advice on what I was thinking about. The system will be used mostly in clubs and possibly some outdoor events for DJing very bass heavy music.
My current plans are:
4 x lab horns powered by a QSC RMX 5050 (30-100hz)
4 x of these midbass horns powered by ??? (100-500hz)
DIY 100hz midbass horn - The Paper Horn by Inlow Sound
No idea for midrange (500-1500hzish) ????
2 x Selenium D408Ti 2" Titanium Horn Driver w/ some sort of waveguides (amp?)
and either a Ashly Protea 4.8 or a DBX driverack 260 for processing.
Eventually I'd like to add on and build this up but right now I need to work on getting all the details sorted before the first stage. Any suggestions?
Thanks,
JC
I'm starting my first PA system build and was hoping to get some advice on what I was thinking about. The system will be used mostly in clubs and possibly some outdoor events for DJing very bass heavy music.
My current plans are:
4 x lab horns powered by a QSC RMX 5050 (30-100hz)
4 x of these midbass horns powered by ??? (100-500hz)
DIY 100hz midbass horn - The Paper Horn by Inlow Sound
No idea for midrange (500-1500hzish) ????
2 x Selenium D408Ti 2" Titanium Horn Driver w/ some sort of waveguides (amp?)
and either a Ashly Protea 4.8 or a DBX driverack 260 for processing.
Eventually I'd like to add on and build this up but right now I need to work on getting all the details sorted before the first stage. Any suggestions?
Thanks,
JC
PA System Criteria for Gigs
This is just a few things that come to mind and does not cover, dj/kj, miking, mixing and signal processing that will be required.
1) Portability
Small, Light, Rugged
Bass Units: Avoid large multi-driver units.
Stack single-driver, smaller units together.
Many club venues cannot accommodate large horns
2)Reliability
Use Top Quality Pro Drivers Only.
Their Life-Cycle Costs are lower.
Always have N+1 Units of Mission Critical Gear available.
Venue Shut-Down is not an option.
3) Sound Quality
The high power, wide spectrum driver dog will not hunt well here.
Do not bifurcate the speech range.
Violate any of these rules at your own peril.
Regards,
WHG
This is just a few things that come to mind and does not cover, dj/kj, miking, mixing and signal processing that will be required.
1) Portability
Small, Light, Rugged
Bass Units: Avoid large multi-driver units.
Stack single-driver, smaller units together.
Many club venues cannot accommodate large horns
2)Reliability
Use Top Quality Pro Drivers Only.
Their Life-Cycle Costs are lower.
Always have N+1 Units of Mission Critical Gear available.
Venue Shut-Down is not an option.
3) Sound Quality
The high power, wide spectrum driver dog will not hunt well here.
Do not bifurcate the speech range.
Violate any of these rules at your own peril.
Regards,
WHG
Would it be better/more cost efficient to try a different mid bass horn design and extending its upper range so that I only have a three way system?
I would think a nice 15" 2-way could keep up with a sub setup pretty well? Seems like things are overly complicated.
Pi Speaker Kits, four Pi kit
Pi Speaker Kits, four Pi kit
The mid bass you chose could be used to 1000 Hz, so a three way easily could be done with it.
However, it's dispersion at 1K would only be around 30 degrees, even with a pair, 60 degrees is pretty narrow for most venues.
The LabHorn and midbass are very efficient, but occupy a lot of space (and use up a lot of heavy plywood!).
As far as transport and storage go, there are many designs that offer more output per space used.
Art
Midrange = B&C 8PE21, 2 units horn loaded per HF unit. TMM arrangement. Going 4 way avoids dispersion problems and can get stupid loud. Yeah, it's big but the bass/kick already is huge in the proposed system so what's an extra couple of cubic feet?
One lab horn per channel per 5050. Takes two amps, and you can run them off separate breakers. You can run a 5050 at less than 2 ohms, but the power system will have trouble with it when every THUMP draws in excess of 30A.
BTW, my lab horn system has been relegated to outdoor only, and only when a crew is available. Which isn't often. For anything indoors, a more practical tapped horn system with BR tops has been adopted.
One lab horn per channel per 5050. Takes two amps, and you can run them off separate breakers. You can run a 5050 at less than 2 ohms, but the power system will have trouble with it when every THUMP draws in excess of 30A.
BTW, my lab horn system has been relegated to outdoor only, and only when a crew is available. Which isn't often. For anything indoors, a more practical tapped horn system with BR tops has been adopted.
Sorry for the confusion, I'm super new to this. I am actually thinking about building 4-6 of the new $325 lab12s and I'd like to go with an all horn system. I do like the DIY 100hz midbass horn - The Paper Horn by Inlow Sound I posted earlier but now I'm thinking I may only need two? Also, are there any good designs for mid range horns out there? 500-1500hz or so? Thanks
What about.
4-6 x $325 Lab12s (QSC RMX 5050) (30-100 Hz)
2 x DIY 100hz midbass horn by Inlow Sound (RMX 1450) (100-500 Hz)
2 x JBL 2446H with JBL 2385a 2" Horns (QSC RMX 850) (500-20,000 Hz)
and
DBX driverack 260 or Ashly Protea 4.8
4-6 x $325 Lab12s (QSC RMX 5050) (30-100 Hz)
2 x DIY 100hz midbass horn by Inlow Sound (RMX 1450) (100-500 Hz)
2 x JBL 2446H with JBL 2385a 2" Horns (QSC RMX 850) (500-20,000 Hz)
and
DBX driverack 260 or Ashly Protea 4.8
I'm thinking that paper horn will not be rugged enough so maybe copy a few Peavey MB2's - with the right drivers they might get you to 1.2k from there up you have many choices
http://www.peavey.com/media/pdf/manuals/80301016.pdf
http://www.peavey.com/media/pdf/manuals/80301016.pdf
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I'm not that interested in space and really want an all horn setup. Does the midbass need to be above the listener? If I stack three small lab12s on their side the center of the midbass would be about 55 inches high.
"Need" is a relative term.
If the center of the midbass is only 55 inches high, one (deaf) person standing in front of it will block the midrange for the rest of the audience.
If your sonic goals include an even coverage of the audience, the best way to accomplish that is to elevate any portion of the PA producing above around 100 Hz above head height and point it down towards the furthest coverage area.
For a PA the size of what you are considering, I'd go with a pair of cabinets per side along the lines of this 2x6" with tweeter. Eminence Alpha 6" and APT drivers, 26.5 x 15 x 11.25 inches deep.
A pair can do around 130 dB at one meter, I certainly would not want to be in front of them if they were not above my head.
The PA picture below shows a pair per side (horn to horn) ratchet strapped on a 45" tall sub with a cord case of the same size for elevation.
Small dowel pins at the front edge are inserted between each cabinet, and shims at the back for a slight down angle.
Art
Attachments
Whats a recommended amp for JBL 2446Js? Should I run them bridged in parallel so that they're an 8 ohm load instead of a 16?
Just run the HF units 16 ohms per side. The sensitivity is SO much higher than any of the mid or low cabs that you won't need more than 100 watts. Keeps the driver protected and the amp loafing where it sounds better. Crossover distortion (that is noticeable on the RMX amps) is a lot less when it's lightly loaded with a higher Z load.
I've been using a GX5 for HF (Selenuim D3305 drivers) and it's way overkill. I need it more for another application to replace a dead Berry EP2500. The HF amp is soon to be replaced with a custom DIY 100WPC unit (which will sound better than the QSC).
I've been using a GX5 for HF (Selenuim D3305 drivers) and it's way overkill. I need it more for another application to replace a dead Berry EP2500. The HF amp is soon to be replaced with a custom DIY 100WPC unit (which will sound better than the QSC).
Wg_ski does not seem to notice that the mid bass you are considering is within four dB of the sensitivity of the 2446 on the horn you plan to use.
At a 500Hz crossover the Inlow mid-bass horn will be able to out-run the 2446 on the 2385, the HF driver will run out of excursion at around 100 watts.
Move the crossover up to 1000 Hz, power with an amp capable of 150 watts in to 16 ohm, and the 2446 will last and sound a lot cleaner.
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But in all likelihood, Under will be backing off on the midbass requirements. I think you're trying to steer him that way. It's way overkill for a couple of single driver TH on the bottom.
I disagree, 3 IPal12 to one Inlow Sound RMX 1450 to one 2446/2385 is about right as far as everything "running out of steam" at the same time if properly powered and crossed over.
The mid bass horn will be much more narrow dispersion than the 60 degree 2385 even if the crossover is at 500 Hz, which is too low for high powered PA use. 1000 Hz will keep the diaphragm intact, but will make the dispersion difference more apparent.
The 2446/2385 can keep up with one or two front loaded cones at 500 Hz, but not a high Q +10 dB midbass.
This is not idle speculation, last century I owned many dozens of 2445/2385 (2445 has the same power rating as the 2446) used for stage monitors, and many more dozens of 2445 used in PA crossed at 1200 Hz with a dual 12" horn load mid similar to the Inlow midbass horn beneath.
I recall one Prince show when the same amps used for low mid and high mid both showed clipping on the snare hits, if the crossover was dropped from 1200 Hz to 500 Hz the diaphragms would have been toast.
At any rate, Underslung does not seem to care about the coverage pattern of the system, which has been the primary "steerage" I have been trying to provide 😉.
Art
I was hoping to use the 2446s down to 500 but if they'll sound better with a higher crossover I'll look for a new midbass cab design that can cover 100-1000hz and keep the dispersion wide.
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