I didn't realize the '552 was a coax; I just looked up the price.
Check out the Volt series of coax speaker kits on DIYSG. You can get a crossover, flat pack and coax speaker in a full kit for quite a bit less than the BMS driver. These would be point sources, not true synergies, and have the drawbacks of a coax in compromised polar response, limited bass, and doppler modulation of the treble by the bass due to using the woofer cone as a waveguide.
If I were going to spend big money on drivers, I would buy the BMS4594 coax compression driver and SEOS24 waveguide and be satisfied with point source from 400 Hz up.
The drivers I recommended were for a true Unity/synergy clone, which requires a bit more work. You would have to augment your cheap jig saw with a cheap table saw and build some jigs.
Or buy a plastic horn and attach drivers to its sides per XRK's or Cask05 threads. The latter two approaches make it so easy there is really no excuse
Check out the Volt series of coax speaker kits on DIYSG. You can get a crossover, flat pack and coax speaker in a full kit for quite a bit less than the BMS driver. These would be point sources, not true synergies, and have the drawbacks of a coax in compromised polar response, limited bass, and doppler modulation of the treble by the bass due to using the woofer cone as a waveguide.
If I were going to spend big money on drivers, I would buy the BMS4594 coax compression driver and SEOS24 waveguide and be satisfied with point source from 400 Hz up.
The drivers I recommended were for a true Unity/synergy clone, which requires a bit more work. You would have to augment your cheap jig saw with a cheap table saw and build some jigs.
Or buy a plastic horn and attach drivers to its sides per XRK's or Cask05 threads. The latter two approaches make it so easy there is really no excuse
Its more time and space than anything else. I use a used pos Skil table saw I got off Craigslist for 50 bucks. Having a place to keep and use a table saw is the bigger challenge. Now that we moved, it has to live in a small shed and get pulled outside on occasions when it isnt raining...
Danley can make a coax into a Synergy...
I can't find the model # but I recall seeing a diagram where DSL (I assume!) takes a coax driver, letting the HF be the usual apex, and he ports the woofer into injection ducts.
Nc, you make some good comments.... if I go with a "normal" coax, while it is of course not a true Unity or Synergy, it is still a "point source", or very close to that, and that is one of the goals of a Unity to be a "virtual point source."
I admit that the woofer cone causes some type of undesired modulation distortion...unavoidable unless a Danley hack as noted above can be done (not bloodly likely with my DIY skills 😀 )
[Jackass mode = ON]
For the above dilemma, I have found a work around. I will screen my music so that when HF (1.5 K and up) is being played, there is little or no LF being played on the woofer to modulate the HF. This will result in uncompromised audio output, albeit at the cost of a somewhat restricted listening catalogue.
😛
[Jackass mode = OFF]
I can't find the model # but I recall seeing a diagram where DSL (I assume!) takes a coax driver, letting the HF be the usual apex, and he ports the woofer into injection ducts.
Nc, you make some good comments.... if I go with a "normal" coax, while it is of course not a true Unity or Synergy, it is still a "point source", or very close to that, and that is one of the goals of a Unity to be a "virtual point source."
I admit that the woofer cone causes some type of undesired modulation distortion...unavoidable unless a Danley hack as noted above can be done (not bloodly likely with my DIY skills 😀 )
[Jackass mode = ON]
For the above dilemma, I have found a work around. I will screen my music so that when HF (1.5 K and up) is being played, there is little or no LF being played on the woofer to modulate the HF. This will result in uncompromised audio output, albeit at the cost of a somewhat restricted listening catalogue.
😛
[Jackass mode = OFF]
The DSL SM-60F was discussed a week ago in post #125.
The SM-60M uses the same 1"/5" coaxial driver with no woofers, -3 dB at 270 Hz.
The "M" stands for molded, the horns are plastic rather than Baltic birch.
Well, yes and no. I just looked at the SM-60 and it appears to only have reflex ports as do many of DSL models. The given size is 21xx21x9 " which is within range of my coroplast supply 🙂 The BMS are enroute and I will have to use my <->brain</-> neuron to its utmost potential this weekend, to avoid trashing a champagne driver with my beer enclousres 🙂
Sent from my NV570P using Tapatalk
Sent from my NV570P using Tapatalk
Coax with paraline used in SBH-10
Now I'm reading about Paraline tech. Ivan Beaver in Another Forum said: "In the Danley SBH10-we are doing some "unusual" things to the driver-how it is mounted an so forth so that the entire full bandwidth is entering each paraline lens from a single point.
I can't go into details-but let's just say it is just like our synergy horns and how they sum together at a single point.
Think of it like a synergy horn (so you have a single source of sound origin) mounted to a paraline lens (for pattern shaping).
It is nowhere nearly as simple as a coax mounted to a paraline lens-that would be all screwed up.
When you have sound sources that start as a single point-it is much easier to "manipulate" them the way you want."
https://soundforums.net/threads/9160-Small-install-spkrs-with-narrow-coverage/page2
No diagrams provided. This does not bode well for me sticking the BMH coax in the mouth of a conical horn but of course that's the first thing I'm going to try 🙄
Now I'm reading about Paraline tech. Ivan Beaver in Another Forum said: "In the Danley SBH10-we are doing some "unusual" things to the driver-how it is mounted an so forth so that the entire full bandwidth is entering each paraline lens from a single point.
I can't go into details-but let's just say it is just like our synergy horns and how they sum together at a single point.
Think of it like a synergy horn (so you have a single source of sound origin) mounted to a paraline lens (for pattern shaping).
It is nowhere nearly as simple as a coax mounted to a paraline lens-that would be all screwed up.
When you have sound sources that start as a single point-it is much easier to "manipulate" them the way you want."
https://soundforums.net/threads/9160-Small-install-spkrs-with-narrow-coverage/page2
No diagrams provided. This does not bode well for me sticking the BMH coax in the mouth of a conical horn but of course that's the first thing I'm going to try 🙄
Now an idle question about Paraline.
I've just finished the epic "teaching thread" about Paraline:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/217298-square-pegs.html
Many thanks to the psuedonymous Patrick Bateman, who has built and trashed more speakers than Soldermizer has even fantasized about 🙂
I now "vaguely" understand Paraline technoogy and have learned that:
1. It is just a way to fold a horn.
2. It is only a conical expansion (?)
3. It's mostly for mids; the traditional HF attenuation happens as in a normal horn, with the bonus problems created by the 180 degree bends required of the Paraline;
4. It's advantageous in certain cases, i.e. where otherwise you'd require a ten foot horn 🙂
5. (Most important to me) while not out of the range of a DIY-er, it most certainly is above the kindergarten skill set of a Soldermizer 🙂
Still, two "just wanna know" questions remain:
1. Is it true that the Paraline can only do conic horns?
2. For the comparable "normal" horn, if this is folded into an equivalent Paraline, will the internal volume in the Paralne be the same?
3. Has anyone ever made a Paraline subwoofer? There was discussion in the thread (speculative) where one could hypotheticaly build layers under a floor. Fortuantely Soldermizer has no such capability: concrete slab floor. And not enough $$$. 😀
The BMS 8" coaxials arrived yesterday. I sometimes worry that UPS will leave $800 worth of goods at a vacant home, requiring no signature. But I guess that means I live is a relatively good neighborhood 😕 Burglars beware: this is Florida after all. Many of us are armed. There is the further disincentive that Soldermizer tends to drastically reduce the value of electronic items that fall into his mitts 🙄
Of course, a hastily-made "horn" (24" mouth) sounds no better, but no worse, than my EQ-ed Travesty 2.x. I'm going to put the BMS's in a sealed box and give them a listen. I can always tack on the horn later.
I've just finished the epic "teaching thread" about Paraline:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/217298-square-pegs.html
Many thanks to the psuedonymous Patrick Bateman, who has built and trashed more speakers than Soldermizer has even fantasized about 🙂
I now "vaguely" understand Paraline technoogy and have learned that:
1. It is just a way to fold a horn.
2. It is only a conical expansion (?)
3. It's mostly for mids; the traditional HF attenuation happens as in a normal horn, with the bonus problems created by the 180 degree bends required of the Paraline;
4. It's advantageous in certain cases, i.e. where otherwise you'd require a ten foot horn 🙂
5. (Most important to me) while not out of the range of a DIY-er, it most certainly is above the kindergarten skill set of a Soldermizer 🙂
Still, two "just wanna know" questions remain:
1. Is it true that the Paraline can only do conic horns?
2. For the comparable "normal" horn, if this is folded into an equivalent Paraline, will the internal volume in the Paralne be the same?
3. Has anyone ever made a Paraline subwoofer? There was discussion in the thread (speculative) where one could hypotheticaly build layers under a floor. Fortuantely Soldermizer has no such capability: concrete slab floor. And not enough $$$. 😀
The BMS 8" coaxials arrived yesterday. I sometimes worry that UPS will leave $800 worth of goods at a vacant home, requiring no signature. But I guess that means I live is a relatively good neighborhood 😕 Burglars beware: this is Florida after all. Many of us are armed. There is the further disincentive that Soldermizer tends to drastically reduce the value of electronic items that fall into his mitts 🙄
Of course, a hastily-made "horn" (24" mouth) sounds no better, but no worse, than my EQ-ed Travesty 2.x. I'm going to put the BMS's in a sealed box and give them a listen. I can always tack on the horn later.
1.Not true, though all the DSL horns are conical, most all being two part conical.
2.There are no "normal horns" comparable to a Paraline.
3. I doubt it, the reason the Paraline was designed was to provide a narrow vertical beam pattern (virtually non-divergent at VHF) which would have no application at subwoofer frequencies.
Buyer's remorse? No, just being anal 🙂
While examining my BMS 8CN552 8/8 Ohms "Neodymium Coaxial Transducer," I note that the HF is a 4558-8 (OEM). Looking in their catalogue (p. 59), the 4550 is a GACK! 😱 Ferrite magnet ??? Say it ain't so!!! A closer look at the specs of the HF for the coax vs the 4550 show significant differences. The 8CN552 claims "Neodymium." Whew!
The woofer...can't tell. At least it's "carbon fibre" but at the catalogue's Neodymium cone section (p. 4) we learn that "The cone is a composite Carbon fiberglass-filled cellulose..." Man, they cover nearly all the bases there! 🙂 🙄
I now return me to gorilla gluing coroplast signs to make enclosures
While examining my BMS 8CN552 8/8 Ohms "Neodymium Coaxial Transducer," I note that the HF is a 4558-8 (OEM). Looking in their catalogue (p. 59), the 4550 is a GACK! 😱 Ferrite magnet ??? Say it ain't so!!! A closer look at the specs of the HF for the coax vs the 4550 show significant differences. The 8CN552 claims "Neodymium." Whew!
The woofer...can't tell. At least it's "carbon fibre" but at the catalogue's Neodymium cone section (p. 4) we learn that "The cone is a composite Carbon fiberglass-filled cellulose..." Man, they cover nearly all the bases there! 🙂 🙄
I now return me to gorilla gluing coroplast signs to make enclosures
Corrections: 2 BMS 8" were $743.25 delivered.
Welter, thank you for the response. Some more ideas, not just idle questions (revving engine slightly for effect at the stop light) 😀
1. [I think in "Square Pegs" is mentioned one possible advantage of the Paraline folding, applying to a Unity | Synergy: one could use a huge LF cone that otherwise would not usually fit, IF one can put the HF directly under the cone of the LF such that it doth not violate the Sacred Quarter Wavelength 🙂 Has anyone tried this?*
2. It's my understanding that all horns tend to be low pass and thus attenuate the HF. Could this be a reason that sensitivity wise, a HF compression driver puts out crazy dB? This has practical application for my current BMS 8" coax: I will probably get some resistors to pad down the HF, because it is much higher output and I hear hiss due to EQ and gain stage limitations of my system.
*This option presents interesting possibilities for Synergizing a coax cone driver: DSL probably does the same with ducting, but in a Paraline it might be simpler to make the coax to a flat surface. Then the only concern is the distance of mids holes from the HF at center. Obviously in a horn you need a duct of a few cm and inject a bit further towards the mouth, but on a Paraline it is a flat surface. If I understand these things correctly...
Welter, thank you for the response. Some more ideas, not just idle questions (revving engine slightly for effect at the stop light) 😀
1. [I think in "Square Pegs" is mentioned one possible advantage of the Paraline folding, applying to a Unity | Synergy: one could use a huge LF cone that otherwise would not usually fit, IF one can put the HF directly under the cone of the LF such that it doth not violate the Sacred Quarter Wavelength 🙂 Has anyone tried this?*
2. It's my understanding that all horns tend to be low pass and thus attenuate the HF. Could this be a reason that sensitivity wise, a HF compression driver puts out crazy dB? This has practical application for my current BMS 8" coax: I will probably get some resistors to pad down the HF, because it is much higher output and I hear hiss due to EQ and gain stage limitations of my system.
*This option presents interesting possibilities for Synergizing a coax cone driver: DSL probably does the same with ducting, but in a Paraline it might be simpler to make the coax to a flat surface. Then the only concern is the distance of mids holes from the HF at center. Obviously in a horn you need a duct of a few cm and inject a bit further towards the mouth, but on a Paraline it is a flat surface. If I understand these things correctly...
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Ijit helps ijits who help themselves 🙂
Duh, re-reading the square pegs epic, I see that (no surprise) Mr. Patrick Bateman has already done a Unity Paraline:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/217298-square-pegs-18.html#post3144705
Duh, re-reading the square pegs epic, I see that (no surprise) Mr. Patrick Bateman has already done a Unity Paraline:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/217298-square-pegs-18.html#post3144705
Hmm, you might want to re-think it if I'm understanding you correctly.
Check out a 1" compression driver on a plane wave tube [fig. 1], then notice how it performs on a constant directivity diffraction horn [fig. 3] and a radial conical HF throat section mated to an expo 'mid' horn [fig. 4]: http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/altec/specs/components/909-8a-16a/page2.jpg
GM
I've also done a Synergy/Paraline and it's somewhat documented in that thread. With the data taken by those of us that have built Paralines I'm not sure why you would want to build one.....the response is awful for hi-fi. Danley himself has said that he wouldn't recommend it for home use but I think he was talking about the pattern it throws.
I've seen one diy Paraline that looked halfway decent and it was fully CNC'd. I think you'd be better off just building some nice cabs for your new drivers.
GM, I'm sure this is a case of you misunderstanding what I mis-stated because I was inadequately informed 😕
Based on my precarious knowledge of acoustics, HF will be attenuated when it passes through a resonator. A horn qualifies. Since the HF is normally at the throat, this means the HF has the longest path through the horn. So I was wondering is this why HF compression drivers have such high sensitivity, to compensate for the loss in flight?
I'll pass on building a Paraline. Agreed, I am listening to my nice BMS 8" now. "Nice cabs" is debatable: each box is triangular, 10" face (foam board), sides each 18"x24" coroplast signs. Stuffed with genuine fiberglass ("Why do I itch?"). Top is currently a spare pillow 🙂 With such good quality driver (or thusly priced 😀 ) in almost free enclosure, one could say this is a case of making a silk ear out of a sow's purse so to speak.
They sound not bad. Little bass but not surprising as they aren't rated for much. I think my Bose 901 will be collecting dust for a while.
Based on my precarious knowledge of acoustics, HF will be attenuated when it passes through a resonator. A horn qualifies. Since the HF is normally at the throat, this means the HF has the longest path through the horn. So I was wondering is this why HF compression drivers have such high sensitivity, to compensate for the loss in flight?
I'll pass on building a Paraline. Agreed, I am listening to my nice BMS 8" now. "Nice cabs" is debatable: each box is triangular, 10" face (foam board), sides each 18"x24" coroplast signs. Stuffed with genuine fiberglass ("Why do I itch?"). Top is currently a spare pillow 🙂 With such good quality driver (or thusly priced 😀 ) in almost free enclosure, one could say this is a case of making a silk ear out of a sow's purse so to speak.
They sound not bad. Little bass but not surprising as they aren't rated for much. I think my Bose 901 will be collecting dust for a while.
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As GM informed you, the response of a HF driver on a constant directivity horn mimics the HF driver's native (plane wave tube) response.
The HF is not attenuated passing through a horn, but is not nearly as efficient as the midrange response, which must be attenuated down to the HF sensitivity for flat on axis response with a contstant directivity horn. The sensitivity of a HF compression driver is a result of high magnetic strength, low moving mass, and horn loading.
Horns that have narrowing directivity at high frequencies can compensate for the HF sensitivity drop inherent in HF compression drivers.
Presenting...the SM (Soldermizer's Mimic) -100
Inspired by DSL's SM-100 but having little more in common than very similar drivers (BMS 8" coax?) and that they both make noise, I give you my latest perpetration. Sounds OK, there are buzzes and resonances during a sine sweep; is this avoidable at all when using lightweight board? But they do sound quite good, after some EQ. I'll be listening to these for a while!
Probably not true Unity | Synergy, but the driver, at least, is super-engineered by German elves, descendants of centuries of fine instrument makers, in the forests of Hangover Germany 🙂 As for the cabinet and horn, its best selling points are it is nearly free, and that it is easy to assemble 🙂
In sum: a mind-numblingly easy way to build a half-assed speaker for those too lazy to do it correctly prototype new ideas.
Inspired by DSL's SM-100 but having little more in common than very similar drivers (BMS 8" coax?) and that they both make noise, I give you my latest perpetration. Sounds OK, there are buzzes and resonances during a sine sweep; is this avoidable at all when using lightweight board? But they do sound quite good, after some EQ. I'll be listening to these for a while!
Probably not true Unity | Synergy, but the driver, at least, is super-engineered by German elves, descendants of centuries of fine instrument makers, in the forests of Hangover Germany 🙂 As for the cabinet and horn, its best selling points are it is nearly free, and that it is easy to assemble 🙂
In sum: a mind-numblingly easy way to build a half-assed speaker for those too lazy to do it correctly prototype new ideas.
Attachments
Errata
Correction: strike-out doesn't work*, but pretend it is the red:
In sum: a mind-numblingly easy way to build a half-assed speaker for those too lazy to do it correctly prototype new ideas.
*Sysop if you've disabled HTML, how am I supposed to re-direct readers to my Russian Women dating site? 🙂
Correction: strike-out doesn't work*, but pretend it is the red:
In sum: a mind-numblingly easy way to build a half-assed speaker for those too lazy to do it correctly prototype new ideas.
*Sysop if you've disabled HTML, how am I supposed to re-direct readers to my Russian Women dating site? 🙂
Can you tell about difference with and without
And about this horn.
?
And about this horn.
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Yes, quite a difference!
These BMS 8" coaxes sound wonderful, even in my prototype enclosures. I think they sound better with the horns ( waveguide, call it what you like!). I want to do measurements of them as "sealed box" and then, when the horns are airtight-ly attached, and compare them.
It is logical that I like the sound of the horns, because I get high directivity and less reflected sound. Very likely it is also the fact that, after listening to Bose 901 for so long, my ears are being reintroduced to the top octave 😀
Or it all could be Beranek's Law in play. I am almost sure to have a wooden set of these built, they sound that good. Perhaps give it a month or two of listening? I'm experimenting with a "throat adaptor" (a mess of PU foam and shellac coating, still not smoothed.)
To be determined: fine tune (in Hornrasp ™ ) the dimensions. What is the preferred embodiment (dammit! Too much patent reading! 😉 ) coverage angle for a single listener pair of horns? 60x60?
These BMS 8" coaxes sound wonderful, even in my prototype enclosures. I think they sound better with the horns ( waveguide, call it what you like!). I want to do measurements of them as "sealed box" and then, when the horns are airtight-ly attached, and compare them.
It is logical that I like the sound of the horns, because I get high directivity and less reflected sound. Very likely it is also the fact that, after listening to Bose 901 for so long, my ears are being reintroduced to the top octave 😀
Or it all could be Beranek's Law in play. I am almost sure to have a wooden set of these built, they sound that good. Perhaps give it a month or two of listening? I'm experimenting with a "throat adaptor" (a mess of PU foam and shellac coating, still not smoothed.)
To be determined: fine tune (in Hornrasp ™ ) the dimensions. What is the preferred embodiment (dammit! Too much patent reading! 😉 ) coverage angle for a single listener pair of horns? 60x60?
Who needs insurance?
Advantage #2 of DIY Home speaker mad scientist experimentation: what burglar would steal a speaker that looks like this???? No, the speaker didn't throw up; that is polyurethane foam in a [failed] attempt to smooth the transition from circle to square shape.
Alas, cheap doesn't always work. For example, much of my audio equipment says "Behringer" and an ignoramus* might equate a German name with BMW like quality 🙄
*Generally speaking, criminals are not the brightest lights in the harbor. Especially here in Florida, where it is more-or-less legal to use them for "target practice" should homeowner be in residence 😀
Advantage #2 of DIY Home speaker mad scientist experimentation: what burglar would steal a speaker that looks like this???? No, the speaker didn't throw up; that is polyurethane foam in a [failed] attempt to smooth the transition from circle to square shape.
Alas, cheap doesn't always work. For example, much of my audio equipment says "Behringer" and an ignoramus* might equate a German name with BMW like quality 🙄
*Generally speaking, criminals are not the brightest lights in the harbor. Especially here in Florida, where it is more-or-less legal to use them for "target practice" should homeowner be in residence 😀
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