Great points. I had read in another forum post that planars don't integrate well at near field but that could easily be a fallacy if they were designed for near field listening. What about leapfrogging the speedsters conceptually and moving up to the spitfires? They feature a nice 6.5" hivi woofer. I do like how Paul voices his crossovers. The spitfires feature a larger woofer with an AMT tweeter which is compelling. I still haven't heard much about the two Hivi kits on Amazon from DIY soundgroup but certainly there is a lot of hype around it from a value perspective and there are several crossover modifications out there already proposed by audio clubs.
I’ve got several projects going at the same time. Not really a good idea, but that’s the way it’s working out right now. I’ll start from the beginning and try to keep it brief.
The AN Classic 10s are full range drivers and were my starting point. Still using them sometimes in the large living room. Not that thrilled with them for complex classical symphonies, which is a common complaint about full range drivers.
However for opera they are fine, because you tend to focus more on the libretto than the orchestra. And they are the speakers that gave me the “magic” moment while listening to a live Met broadcast. To achieve it, however, I had to place my head right over a glass coffee table in the middle of the living room. There was no doubt though about the difference. Very repeatable. Move my head into the “magic” spot and there is was. The sound literally popped into place. Clear, rich, and with depth. Move my head away and it was just plain old sound. So this is not an achievable solution for me, which is the reason I’m planning a dedicated music room.
To answer your question then, the Piccolos were not involved in the “magic” moment. I think it has as much or more to do with the room and speaker placement than it does with the particular speakers themselves.
The Piccolos are intended for use in the den along with the TV in order to watch opera videos. Given the arrangement of furniture in that room it again will not be possible to have a “magic” listening spot and I’m reconciled to that compromise for now. For that purpose I wanted speakers in the 7 to 8 liter size and considered both the Piccolos and the Continuum IIs. I can’t say which one sounds better or which you would like. I chose the Piccolos mainly due to a concern for the BBC Dip designed into the Continuums. I have no idea whether I would like that better or worse than the Piccolos, but decided not to take a chance.
The Continuums are sealed and the Piccolos can be built either way. I’ve started with these sealed for now, but the back panel can be easily replaced with a ported version. I plan to try that at some point. The port tubes are included in the kit.
Finally, for the next step, if and when the music room gets done, I’m looking at 2.5 or 3-ways. Thus my post asking for comments on Troels SBA 741 and SBA 761. And I received some very good suggestions from knowledgeable people causing me to think in a direction I had not considered before. Namely, wave guides with the tweeters to better control side reflections in a small room.
Always something else to think about. Hope that helps.
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Soprano is better near field than the Tributes and the Soprano is the only speaker designed by someone else that I kept. An underrated speaker. I did have a sub with them for a while for only movies but now run solo. For near field my preference is a F3 between 60-70Hz. My computer speakers uses a tiny SB65WBAC fullrange and has a top end that will compete well against most tweeters of a similar price and does have adequate bottom end and SPL for my needs.
The SB Micro does use the very good SB12PAC midwoofer and Troels gave it the thumbs up for it's mids. I've used that driver and the SB19ST tweeter but in different speakers and not together.
myTV
You could always buy a speaker such as the Q Acoustics Concept 20 for that money. A powered studio monitor like Yamaha HS5 or HS7 would also be suitable for similar dollars.
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I didn't know if you had solved your room/WAF quandary that you had detailed in your thread or if you had pulled in your Piccolo's briefly to see if you could recreate the magic but it sounds like you have significant environmental challenges to surmount rather than technical ones at this stage
I'm usually running multiple projects for fun at any given time as well. I did see your post regarding the SBA 741 and 761 designs and your thread asking for a lot of specifics on reproduction of violin notes...I used to play myself but haven't picked it up for an age. I was never that good at it in any case but that doesn't mean that I don't love the sound of a violin played by someone that is actually facile. I have a set of econowaves that I built based off of the AK thread maybe 7 years ago but they are not a ground-up audiophile build they employ the cheaper selenium ti driver and the woofer was part of a former Nova 8b. I'm guessing that with premium components a waveguide based speaker would be amazing. I will however state that the JBL studio monitor 308P's that I briefly owned in my opinion sucked all the life out of the music and presented it as a bare clinical presentation. This is all subjective right? I mean...they are studio monitors and that's what they are designed for. I just have apprehension that if I were to build a high end wave guide based speaker it would sound more like the JBL and less like the Econowave I built.
So to clarify my understanding, your previous speakers have been Holtz/Campbell collaborations and your Soprano was your only foray into Bagby designed speakers is that an accurate statement? I've stand mounted my speakers maybe a foot away from my computer desk which has a depth of 30" so I guess I'm about 3.5' -5' out from my listening position depending on if I sit upright or (more likely) recline. This likely puts me on the bubble between near and mid field but the Soprano for my purposes still sounds like the better option. I think that regardless of what I get i'm going to leverage sub supplementation to increase bottom end extension. I'm not a bass head but I want the music to sound full.
I see that your full range SB65WBAC is going for all of 30 dollars or less on parts express...that's within 'experimentation throwaway money' range
So let me ask, do you run an type of crossover to it, do you put a single cap inline or anything of that type or do you just hook up juice and go? What enclosure did you put it in and size?Strassacker: Lautsprecherboxen - Selbstbau. If you want interesting kits and a few have baffle cutouts available and from my understanding they will do the baffle or cabinet for any of their kits.
Later on you want to build a larger kit of better quality then this shop has them I list a couple below
Sculptor aktiv
Ypsilon
Here is a well regarded one with available full baffle or cabinet even painted Tigris
Tons of compact kits available , I linked the German site because it has info about each kit that the English site doesn't have
Small bookshelf Orchestra Monitor 4
https://www.lautsprechershop.de/hifi/double_four.htm this should be good close up
Anyway use Google chrome translate unless you understand German
Later on you want to build a larger kit of better quality then this shop has them I list a couple below
Sculptor aktiv
Ypsilon
Here is a well regarded one with available full baffle or cabinet even painted Tigris
Tons of compact kits available , I linked the German site because it has info about each kit that the English site doesn't have
Small bookshelf Orchestra Monitor 4
https://www.lautsprechershop.de/hifi/double_four.htm this should be good close up
Anyway use Google chrome translate unless you understand German
The Nephila look like they are full sized floor standers. I'm looking stand mount or two way mostly near field listening designs for an under $500 price point give or take. Where are you at in Indiana? I used to live in Noblesville and hung out with a lot of the Indianapolis area audio crowd for a number of years!
Stance looks nice...love your finish and how 'squat' and stout they look. Looking up the drivers, etc. on them now.
Stance looks nice...love your finish and how 'squat' and stout they look. Looking up the drivers, etc. on them now.
That would be a very good idea and allow you to get whatever kit you want without having to worry about the baffle board.
It's not that difficult to learn the skill, but I would suggest some practice on at least two or three throw away boards first. Don't try the real one until you can get it perfect on the practice pieces.
If you would like I can make some recommendations for routers and circle guides. Plan to spend about $200 for both the router and jig. The router has be a plunge base type.
A router would also allow you to radius or chamfer the edges of the baffle itself.
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It's a skill worth having and something that will divorce me from a requirement that I shouldn't have to have when making kits. I totally will give it a shot on some cheap pine boards before spending the money on baltic birch. I believe the general consensus is to purchase a 3/4 inch (at least for the baffle) sheet of baltic ply rather than MDF, is that accurate? I'll take your recommendations but likely will go the cheap route on the router (harbor freight most likely) since this will be literally my only application but i'll entertain other pricier options)
I have a recommendation for you as well. If you've not heard any of Sigfried Linkwitz's speakers due to the music you listen to I think you should see if you can get an audition of one of his builds. They ended my entire floorstander audio nervosa obsession. Everyone has different ears but to mine the LX521 is the finest speaker I've heard period and likely the LXMini on a smaller scale would be great as well, I'm just not pursuing it because I want to try 'different'.
I have a recommendation for you as well. If you've not heard any of Sigfried Linkwitz's speakers due to the music you listen to I think you should see if you can get an audition of one of his builds. They ended my entire floorstander audio nervosa obsession. Everyone has different ears but to mine the LX521 is the finest speaker I've heard period and likely the LXMini on a smaller scale would be great as well, I'm just not pursuing it because I want to try 'different'.
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So to clarify my understanding, your previous speakers have been Holtz/Campbell collaborations and your Soprano was your only foray into Bagby designed speakers is that an accurate statement?
I see that your full range SB65WBAC is going for all of 30 dollars or less on parts express...that's within 'experimentation throwaway money' range
I have no idea who Holtz/Campbell are. I design and build my own and 50+ over the last decade and a half. I've done two Jeff Bagby speakers. The Soprano which I kept and the Tribute but changed that speaker and the xo to my own design as it didn't do it for me.
If you want the music to sound full, then you are going on the path of mixing monitors where my needs for near field is a tad beyond background music. For your needs, the SB65WBAC will not do it for you at all. I run no crossover with it and if I need BSC, I do that with an active circuit. I built 3 versions of it..... 1.3 litre vented, 1.3 litre PR, 1.3 litre vented using PVC pipe fittings.
I'm not easily able to find that one in the US online but I'm guessing there are tons of alternatives.
For some reason I thought the Tribute kit was designed by Holtz and Campbell but it looks like that is another Bagby kit. My apologies. Sounds like you are far more experienced in tweaking DIY designs than I am, I am able to build things but any tweaking/optimizing on my own is beyond my expertise beyond simple things.
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Buy a router, you finally have an excuse to do so. Get a good one, don't fall into the trap of cheaping out on tools.
I made my own jig for cutting circles out of a piece of hardboard - a piece of perspex might be a better option. Youtube has plenty of DIY ideas for router jigs.
Remember you have to route-out the driver rebate before you cut the through-hole because once the wood is out of the hole you have nowhere to anchor the router jig's point of rotation.
This is DIY !
you do realize that to get a quality result you will have to spend decent money, the cheapest route is to buy used speakers, that will also be the fastest option
I made my own jig for cutting circles out of a piece of hardboard - a piece of perspex might be a better option. Youtube has plenty of DIY ideas for router jigs.
Remember you have to route-out the driver rebate before you cut the through-hole because once the wood is out of the hole you have nowhere to anchor the router jig's point of rotation.
This is DIY !
you do realize that to get a quality result you will have to spend decent money, the cheapest route is to buy used speakers, that will also be the fastest option
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You're probably right but where is the fun in that? I have both and they collect dust. Maybe I have some of that snobbery that says I shouldn't have to use such things out of 'purity'...I don't want to admit to such a thing conceptually however. Bottom line is that I'm sure I will build and continue to build more speakers because I enjoy the process and discovery.
It's funny, I will spend a ton of money on audio and certain genres but will cheap out on tools like this because I only use them for one application in general. I've never done any of that before but I'm game to try and will dive in and watch endless videos before I approach it. This is part of the fun!
Bigun, I went through over 100 pairs of used often monkey coffin vintage speakers that I recapped/refoamed/refinished before ending up with LX521.4's and 'satisfying' my audio habit. This put me on about a 4-5 year hiatus with not a single audio purchase. But the concept of dabbling with DIY bookshelves or stand mount speakers for my office got me started again and honestly this isn't about need...if it was about need (1st world need at that!) I'd walk out my office door and down a half flight of stairs into my listening room and fire up my main system. This is about chasing the fun of trying new things, a hobby, interacting with cool and intelligent people that have good suggestions and have been there before me, etc.
Honestly the most value that folks get in determining what their next steps are in the audio world is through comparison of a new product/project and one they have owned and heard. Otherwise we're just talking conceptual terms like 'lush' 'bright' 'dynamic' that might be too amorphous to equate to an experience or means different things to different people.
Let me see if I can articulate what I like and don't like in our proprietary terminology:
Like:
"Lush buttery midrange" often associated with british audio. Is this term I'm using ultimately the descriptive wording of the 'british midrange hump' that the continuum II and LS3/5a and most vintage KEF products incorporate? If so I love it.
"Dynamic"...usually associated with high efficiency designs where there is visceral impact and dynamic range. Like most Klipsch or Altec designs are.
"tight accurate bass"...what does this mean? Open baffle bass to me is the tightest there is, no box noise, no mud. But this isn't probably on the table for common diy stand mount near field designs so I'd say balanced bass that isn't flabby. Does this mean I look more for acoustic suspension options? I mentally have associated a higher propensity for tight bass to be found in
sealed cabinets.
"balanced highs" i.e. not piercing or accentuated to where I would get listener fatigue. I would like accurate but not grainy/harsh/so clinical that the music gets broken down into it's 'component atoms' when I'm hearing it.
Don't Want:
1. Loose bass.
2. Minimal dynamics.
3. Highs so clinical that the music sounds grainy.
4. Something that doesn't fit on a stand.
5. A design that isn't commonly known and vetted as good by many folks. I don't want to consume time on something used and endorsed by few even if it's good because good is subjective.
6. Highs that don't at least hit 15-16khz (the highest range of my 40-something year old hearing that I can hear)
7. Bass that rolls off above 100 hz...I don't want to have to cross over a sub high enough to where directional frequencies come into play.
8. Something that uses mini dsp...because I listen to high bitrate source which means I'd want or need to get the mini-dsp HD version which means now I've eaten up my project budget for mini-dsp. Conceptually I'm a total believer...my LX521.4 incorporates it...but not for smaller budget/evolutionary/exploratory kit builds like the path I'm treading down now.
On the topic earlier regarding EQ's, they can correct sound and I do use them on my headphones/IEM's and have messed with them briefly with my sound systems but such things don't bring the other more physical attributes like dynamics/impact/etc. to the table.
So far my gut feel is:
1. Continuum II would probably be a win in every way. Checks the boxes of sealed and british sound hump, tugs on my LS3/5a heart strings, sealed enclosure, huge following and vetted/mature design. I bet I'd love them. Only con would be that their bass and SPL output is probably minimal and even near field I like to get some volume. I'd feel a little better about this as a choice if the drivers were higher output and 6.5" or some such. I mean...they roll off RIGHT ON THE NOSE at 100 hz even if it is a gentle rolloff.
2. Piccolo recommendation is a good one but between the two I think I'd lean for the Continuum based on it's roots. Soprano falls into this same bucket as the Piccolo. If I'm going to commit the cash in a bagby design on this cost level likely the Continuum II is the most likely candidate.
3. Fascinated by coaxials...maybe take the leap of faith on the Loki's? Relatively risky investment if I don't like them.
4. ernperkins, you've heard the speedsters and the original Contiuum's (wich supposedly have very similar sound). I know auditory memory is short but do you remember the comparison or how you felt about them? I like the idea of the speedsters or maybe even the speedster MTM's to get a little more output perhaps at the cost of imaging.
5. I still can't get over the Hivi 2.2 and 3.1 kits on Amazon....people rave about them and the drivers are very very nice for the price. I know Classicalfan mentioned that those likely would be a lateral move but I'm not quite sure that's the case. The woofer is a dynaudio knockoff made by hivi with a phase plug and is made of kevlar. The tweeter is planar. The reviews are great and there are at least 4 different suggestions for crossover mods to optimize them that are documented. Big fan base there and cheap price, seems to punch way higher than what the price says and having a planar design in the stable might be fun. Plus the kits come with literally everything from the cabinet/baffle perspective.
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