Hey folks! So my home studio currently has 3 sets of monitors in use and things are cluttered enough as the studio accumulates more stuff. One pair are Avantone mix cubes for lo-if critical midrange dial in. Another set is a well regarded 2 way 5.5/1” dome. The other is a DIY 2.5 way tower using Scanspeak drivers that extends to 35hz. All in all, cross referencing across all three has provided outstanding results that translate to hifi systems, small portable mono devices and car systems.
So why mess with a good thing? Clutter in a nutshell. And second, the need to accomplish something.....self fulfillment and ergonomics....One set of monitors on the bridge....minimalist but ful functioning.
My goal is a horizontal three way monitor with an 8” woofer flanked by a vertical mid/ high compliment with a 4-5” midrange and tweeter above. There are no constraints on the tweeter type. I’ve pretty much settled on the Dayton RS225 for woofer duties though.....unless someone can talk me out of the fantastic performance and relatively low cost? I’m all ears.
So here’s the kick.....and an essential part of the design....I NEED to be able to flip a switch on the front of the monitor that will send only the full range input signal to the midrange driver, bypassing all crossover components inside. The purpose of this is to mimic or improve upon the revealing character of the Avantone Mixcubes. In that, the midrange driver will need to cover 400hz to 8khz flat and then acoustically rolloff....no breakups above the 8khz range but a smooth progressive descent to 12k or so.
Ideally bass extension should have an f3 in the low 40’s. Room is very well treated so I don’t expect much help from room gain. Most tracks of even the most aggressive bass devices are almost always highpassed at the board at 35hz or higher anyways in the real recording world.
Thanks again for the help!
So why mess with a good thing? Clutter in a nutshell. And second, the need to accomplish something.....self fulfillment and ergonomics....One set of monitors on the bridge....minimalist but ful functioning.
My goal is a horizontal three way monitor with an 8” woofer flanked by a vertical mid/ high compliment with a 4-5” midrange and tweeter above. There are no constraints on the tweeter type. I’ve pretty much settled on the Dayton RS225 for woofer duties though.....unless someone can talk me out of the fantastic performance and relatively low cost? I’m all ears.
So here’s the kick.....and an essential part of the design....I NEED to be able to flip a switch on the front of the monitor that will send only the full range input signal to the midrange driver, bypassing all crossover components inside. The purpose of this is to mimic or improve upon the revealing character of the Avantone Mixcubes. In that, the midrange driver will need to cover 400hz to 8khz flat and then acoustically rolloff....no breakups above the 8khz range but a smooth progressive descent to 12k or so.
Ideally bass extension should have an f3 in the low 40’s. Room is very well treated so I don’t expect much help from room gain. Most tracks of even the most aggressive bass devices are almost always highpassed at the board at 35hz or higher anyways in the real recording world.
Thanks again for the help!
I don't see any reason why the switching concept won't work. It may take more than one switch, but it seems feasible.
Asking a driver to do dual duty as a midrange in a high quality monitor, and as a full range which imitates an avantone mix cube will require a driver with special characteristics.
The Satori MR13P might be a good candidate. It has an extended response, and if you listen to it 30 degrees off-axis, it meets your stated criteria. Xmax is a bit limited.
The SBA SB12NRX25 is another good candidate. Sensitivity is a little low. Actually from a frequency response point of view, this driver is a really good full range driver. And the price is nice.
My point is that you will probably need to pick the mid driver first, and then select the woofer and tweeter to match. If the mid driver that works best happens to have a low sensitivity, you will need to adjust your woofer selection as needed.
Are you open to using DSP equalization to "force" the mid driver to match the Avantone?
Asking a driver to do dual duty as a midrange in a high quality monitor, and as a full range which imitates an avantone mix cube will require a driver with special characteristics.
The Satori MR13P might be a good candidate. It has an extended response, and if you listen to it 30 degrees off-axis, it meets your stated criteria. Xmax is a bit limited.
The SBA SB12NRX25 is another good candidate. Sensitivity is a little low. Actually from a frequency response point of view, this driver is a really good full range driver. And the price is nice.
My point is that you will probably need to pick the mid driver first, and then select the woofer and tweeter to match. If the mid driver that works best happens to have a low sensitivity, you will need to adjust your woofer selection as needed.
Are you open to using DSP equalization to "force" the mid driver to match the Avantone?
Given how good its 6.5" brother measures, this one could be it:
PTT4.0W04 - PURIFI
With Seas DXT it would make a powerfull combination.
PTT4.0W04 - PURIFI
With Seas DXT it would make a powerfull combination.
The response of the Avantone Mix cubes are pretty terrible......the originals were passionately called the Horrortones!........i've reviewed the response curve of quite a few drivers that can match.......rolls off naturally at 6db or better from 6.5khz........i just need to to play unmolested midrange with dsp, components or otherwise from 250hz up to 6khz which is what i/we do now.....it's very revealing. We also run a mono mix through em for confirmation.
A double pole/double throw switch should do the switching duties in and out of the passive network.
Just gotta find the right mid/fullrange driver.
Here's a link to the Avantone's reponse
Redirect Notice
Thanks for the help fellas.....this is gonna be a fun project with hopefully some assistance. I may have enlist the help of the fullrange wingnuts for guidance! LOL
A double pole/double throw switch should do the switching duties in and out of the passive network.
Just gotta find the right mid/fullrange driver.
Here's a link to the Avantone's reponse
Redirect Notice
Thanks for the help fellas.....this is gonna be a fun project with hopefully some assistance. I may have enlist the help of the fullrange wingnuts for guidance! LOL
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Those are nice......i'm considering a sealed route as well for improved impulse response....a throwback to the Yammy NS10....only in that regard LOL I think i'd need an LT circuit to get me the low end extension i'd need from a sealed box though.....lots of EDM work coming through the studio and need flat to 40hz response
Consider.... investing in DSP with one amp/speaker on your Scanspeak tower.
You could equalize most room interaction and get flat SPL at the listener.
You could create a "BBC Bump" to mimic a typical small room listening experience.
You could create a custom "midrange bandpass only" DSP curve to tune vocals.
Extensive forward thinking DSP development went into the Kii Three, and Dutch & Dutch 8C, and Barefoot monitors. Websites for these monitors have educational material.
You could equalize most room interaction and get flat SPL at the listener.
You could create a "BBC Bump" to mimic a typical small room listening experience.
You could create a custom "midrange bandpass only" DSP curve to tune vocals.
Extensive forward thinking DSP development went into the Kii Three, and Dutch & Dutch 8C, and Barefoot monitors. Websites for these monitors have educational material.
This is typically not a good idea. While results are guaranteed to be OK, it's really a case of 'it's too easy, there must be something wrong with it'.
That's the tough part.. particularly when you factor-in baffle diffractive effects.
Home of the Edge
As for the filter: "shoot" for a B&O "Filler" driver approach.
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/88135-filler-driver-ala-3.html#post4376492
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Because of the rise in response from 1.8-2.8 khz, and also the slight increase in pressure below 350 Hz, the Fountek FR88EX should work well to achieve close to a flat response on-baffle with the driver in the right position.
It also has pretty low distortion for a driver of this size along with decent excursion and good enough dispersion on the top-end.
Size the rear chamber correctly as a bass reflex (..more for extending the driver as flat into the upper bass (around 90 Hz) with respect to the baffle than as a means of bass extension).
This should be superior to what you were proposing with the Mixcubes/midrange result.
Get this right (or something similar) and then move onto the filter with the other drivers and you'll have an enviable result.
It also has pretty low distortion for a driver of this size along with decent excursion and good enough dispersion on the top-end.
Size the rear chamber correctly as a bass reflex (..more for extending the driver as flat into the upper bass (around 90 Hz) with respect to the baffle than as a means of bass extension).
This should be superior to what you were proposing with the Mixcubes/midrange result.
Get this right (or something similar) and then move onto the filter with the other drivers and you'll have an enviable result.
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The idea of using the mid a full range has merit. As said above the FR on the Avatone isn't so great, but it avoids issues of time distortion and creates a single point source, so it might reveal somethings....I would follow something like what ScottG is suggesting...basically hes covering your "Avatone" idea with something that's better than the Avatone....you can choose to use this mid singularly or with the 3 way with a tri amp'd 3 way that has dsp for each channel.
Even though the Avatone has those benefits in the time distortion area, I think that with well designed 3 way, you can just zero in on the same range via a high and low pass filter and get the same focus on the mids that an Avatone provides...200hz to 7khz is a good starting place. A lot of people buying new speakers to achieve new voicing (eq)....and its silly.
Even though the Avatone has those benefits in the time distortion area, I think that with well designed 3 way, you can just zero in on the same range via a high and low pass filter and get the same focus on the mids that an Avatone provides...200hz to 7khz is a good starting place. A lot of people buying new speakers to achieve new voicing (eq)....and its silly.
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You would think that would be the case, but when the LF and HF content goes away,......it’s like a veil is removed and the low mid range is exposed.....in all it’s glory.....or worse! LOL Those little Mix Cubes have become so essential in producing a mix that translates as well as being clinical enough to isolate resonance and noise that need to be balanced better in the mix or removed.
I’m kinda done with DSP in the final listening stage.......spent sooooo much $$$ on analog outboard gear to put ‘analog’ back. Have a nice Bryston amp powering the Scanspeaks......will repurpose it here.
So clearly the mid/fullrange Driver is the focus of this thread......and the design overall. Heck, every speaker system should direct it’s focus on the midrange for that matter! LOL
That little Fountek looks promising.....but not sure how an aluminum cone is gonna sit....tonal wise. Something tells me i’ll be purchasing quite a few and doing some critical listening on their own.
That little Fountek looks promising.....but not sure how an aluminum cone is gonna sit....tonal wise. Something tells me i’ll be purchasing quite a few and doing some critical listening on their own.
The Fountek was the best tested here!
Timothy Feleppa's Pages: Speaker Measurements - Midrange/Fullrange Speakers 4" and smaller
Timothy Feleppa's Pages: Speaker Measurements - Midrange/Fullrange Speakers 4" and smaller
It’s on my radar Marty with quite a few others. The Scanspeak 10F is a candidate as well. I don’t need extension beyond 10khz so that opens up the field quite a bit. The Dayton RS100 is also on the list.
-be sure to look for a driver that works with the baffle, otherwise you'll end-up with components to correct (..which I'm assuming is the ultimate no, no).
This means you need to go through modeling (at 2 meters) the response of any given driver at multiple positions on the baffle you are considering (..and perhaps even baffle shapes you aren't considering, but will after modeling).
Note: in a simple modeler like the Edge, be sure to have the virtual mic. (at 2 meters distance) pointed toward (on top of) where the tweeter will be (..which is likely just above the mid/fullrange driver).
When you've got some idea of the basic design and driver, move that basic design idea over to Vituixcad for a much better model.
BTW, if you want a depressed (downward slope treble response from just a normally wide-bandwidth fullrange: listen off-axis (horizontally) - usually 30 degrees or more). IF you also want the lower-end with a downward slope: simply plug the port on that fullrange's bass-reflex with a lossy foam (about 30-40 ppi). That should give you that high-lighted midrange result that you are looking for while allowing for more bandwidth on-demand, and a MUCH easier and simpler crossover for that driver in the B&O filter I mentioned (just a single component for each high and low pass filter).
Finally, as noted on Tim's website: the newer Fountek 88 has its treble bump a bit lower than previously, which can make it even easier to achieve a mostly flat response from 300 Hz up.
This means you need to go through modeling (at 2 meters) the response of any given driver at multiple positions on the baffle you are considering (..and perhaps even baffle shapes you aren't considering, but will after modeling).
Note: in a simple modeler like the Edge, be sure to have the virtual mic. (at 2 meters distance) pointed toward (on top of) where the tweeter will be (..which is likely just above the mid/fullrange driver).
When you've got some idea of the basic design and driver, move that basic design idea over to Vituixcad for a much better model.
BTW, if you want a depressed (downward slope treble response from just a normally wide-bandwidth fullrange: listen off-axis (horizontally) - usually 30 degrees or more). IF you also want the lower-end with a downward slope: simply plug the port on that fullrange's bass-reflex with a lossy foam (about 30-40 ppi). That should give you that high-lighted midrange result that you are looking for while allowing for more bandwidth on-demand, and a MUCH easier and simpler crossover for that driver in the B&O filter I mentioned (just a single component for each high and low pass filter).
Finally, as noted on Tim's website: the newer Fountek 88 has its treble bump a bit lower than previously, which can make it even easier to achieve a mostly flat response from 300 Hz up.
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Great info! Thanks Scott.
My initial plan was to buy a couple of fullrange/mid drivers that meet the goals and use them in cube enclosures for a bit and see which one was most satisfying.....but your point suggests I build the desired cabs for a three way and listen with the baffle effects in place which makes sense.
I’ve been looking primarily in the 4” class, but I have some real concerns about power handling in a reference environment.....can a 4” hold up?......i’m having doubts. I try and reduce my mix sessions to an hour or less to reduce fatigue but do work around 88db which is where my FM adjustments seem to be consistent.
I’m also wondering on the final enclosure for the mid driver........first instinct would be a small sealed well damped chamber but now i’m also considering an aperiodic enclosure....vented to the rear. This should improve impulse response and raise the F3 to the 200 hz range where I want to be when monitoring with just the midrange.
My initial plan was to buy a couple of fullrange/mid drivers that meet the goals and use them in cube enclosures for a bit and see which one was most satisfying.....but your point suggests I build the desired cabs for a three way and listen with the baffle effects in place which makes sense.
I’ve been looking primarily in the 4” class, but I have some real concerns about power handling in a reference environment.....can a 4” hold up?......i’m having doubts. I try and reduce my mix sessions to an hour or less to reduce fatigue but do work around 88db which is where my FM adjustments seem to be consistent.
I’m also wondering on the final enclosure for the mid driver........first instinct would be a small sealed well damped chamber but now i’m also considering an aperiodic enclosure....vented to the rear. This should improve impulse response and raise the F3 to the 200 hz range where I want to be when monitoring with just the midrange.
A lot of people buying new speakers to achieve new voicing (eq)....and its silly. Its so funny you said it that way you did, I feel like I almost wrote
but then I was like naw, I don't want to start talking technique, these guys....so i didn't post it...but then you said it
....just wondering when the connection will be made that this is just one eq setting away, whether your speaker controller dsp or an eq on master channel of the daw...and buying a completely new set of speakers to only to remove "LF and HF content" is ridiculous
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Unless the 4" is very extended on-axis (flat to near 20 kHz) you will likely be "looking" at a more complex filter than what I've suggested: more complex filter = more components in the signal path.
88 db at 2 meters, no problem for even the Fountek 3" provided it's loaded (good enclosure) properly and bandwidth dependent.
Note: the lossy foam plug I mentioned does turn it into a more of an aperiodic design. You can improve on this with a hard center plug surrounded by the foam that gets pushed into the port. If you want to make it sealed you'd do the same hard center surrounded by a flexible seal (.."o" ring).
Ironically I generally don't recommend *sealed or especially aperiodic designs with drivers that operate much beyond 400 Hz. It tends to reduce depth reproduction. Bass reflex designs that are specifically designed for this sort of operation/pass-band have in my experience produced MUCH better results (..and it's obviously a REAR port). It has very little to do with the pressure contribution of the port: that's almost incidental (..though important to get the correct high-pass result with filter).
*sealed designs with long-length enclosures (and large volumes relative to the driver's Vas) and very specific "stuffing" (kept off of the walls of the enclosure) are almost as good as a good Bass reflex design.
In any event, it's something you can try pretty cheaply.
1. you make the baffle-size you've modeled (just a board with the baffle dimensions and round-over along with some 4" rockwool on the back except of course where the driver/enclosure will be).
2. you make an enclosure you are interested in for the driver and adhere/connect it to the back of the baffle. Driver should be flush to the baffle with almost no space between the frame and the baffle.
3. measure the result.
4. listen to it.
See what you like. 😉
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