choky said:
Setting up a LP12 suspensionis an art, and it is VERY critical to the 'sound' of the table. Critically important to do it exactly right. Doing so (getting it right) --is a learned art. Once known, it can be done in as short a time as 5 minutes. Getting to the point where one can do that..can take years and years of practice.
I explained the basic suspension part of it once on the AVS forum, go and do a search there for my posts on the subject, if you are interested. If the suspension is even slightly off, it will have no bass-to bad bass, at best. If properly set up, it will still have the midbass hump, but the rest will be very, very good. The springs and grommets die slowly, for example, and should be replaced if over 10 years old or if in difficult enviroments. Keep the chosen arm mass close to the optimum design point which is the Ittok mass. Belts must be in sound working order as well. Leveling, is also critical. Motors must be good,and the Valhalla board, if older, must be re-capped, as it is 'on' if the TT is plugged in and suffers long term thermal capacitor aging via this issue. this leads to cogging of the motor (THD in terms of speed micro jitter, which destroys the TT sound, period)
After all physical and electrical aspects are taken care of, you could finally be ready to set up the table. It is, admittedly, a long road to travel in this world of instant gratification, and the fact that LP-12 set up and maintence is definitely in the learned 'lore' catagory of secret information. Many things can go wrong in the set up of the table, if you don't know the things to do, the sequence and the reasons behind each step, and most importantly, exactly how to do them.
Level and stable surface, level and stable plinth, and then level and stable sub chassis, etc, etc, etc. All while tuning the suspension. A properly tuned LP-12 will not loose it's suspension alignment. A badly tuned one will go out again in as little as a day, and be very sensitive to enviromental concerns. Temp, humidity, etc..
A good turntable will illustrate flaws in parts and set-up very, very clearly. The LP-12 does that. An LP-12 looks deceptively simple. It is definitely not simple. Things are very well thought out. TO give you and idea, I gentleman who I work with, who knows vibration and noise control like no other has much respect for that table. He does make a nod to it's known flaws, but overall the table is a masterpiece of design, in some very specific ways that people miss....even though it is sitting right in front of them. As they miss these 'bits'..the proper set-up of the table then does not take place, as they don't understand the basic concepts of what exactly is going on, or the method by which the given 'cure' (for the noise issue) has been implemented.
After over 15 yeras of ownership, I can say I finally say I know how to set one up. It took ten years of slowly (at the odd time) running into the right people to figure this table out. Anyway, long stories, no time today. 🙂
I am neither a defender nor detractor on this subject of Ivor's table. 🙂
Ten years!! 😱
Jeez, no wonder I got shot of my LP12.
It took me about a week to figure out my idler-drive set-up.
KBK said:
love is love and pride is pride 😉
I agree with everything you wrote,and I admit that I certainly overreacted with "censored word " in my post😎
I grew up with good TTS and few other specimens of fine mechanical craft and,luckily,I have opportunity to know and learn how good TT (including LP12) work and sound.
but-I stay with claim that LP12 was (unfortunately?) just another object of sort of hifi mania or myth......almost as 301 and 401 in several last years.......
there is no TT bigger than life,and certainly there is no really bad TT,when is set properly and with care.
at least when music lover is using it
true enough, I've managed to get good muisc out of $10-25 Duals and Kenwoods.
The plastic bodied Dual TT's of the mid 80's-90's were teriffic turntables for the money. I had lots of fun with them.
I'm NOT a fan of the suspensionless turntables that abound today. I'm also not a fan of any 'high mass' suspended platter tables, or ones made of machined metals. All very bad news when it comes to controlling resonace and noise.
After that, there are not may TT's left to choose from. You end up with the LP-12 and maybe, maybe 2 others. that's it. Thorens TD125 (MkII and III), maybe. Even it has more issues than a LP- 12. Low suspended mass is very, very, --very--- important, for reasons I won't get into. Then, the way the LP-12 platter is built. It takes 30 days to cut a LP-12 platter, because it is not thermally cycled or stressed during the cutting. It is cut a bit, then let sit. Next day, some more, and sit. One reason the TT costs so much. The result speaks for itself. The platter is the least ringing of all the platters out there..... WITHOUT the absolutely retarded and bass-ackwards addition of 'damping mass'. God, I can't believe people are soooo stupid on that subject. 🙂 (Do me a big favor: remain stupid on that subject. Don't ever figure it out. Stay asleep. Forget everything you just heard - and go back to sleep) One single aspect of dozens of what the LP-12 has, which is more potential than most out there.
I have had the cash and many times have played with far more expensive tables. I have stuck with the LP-12, because like a fine hand built sports car that must be tuned directly to the driver's butt..by that very same driver....it can be made to perform. Persistence and thought are rewarded by this TT.
I'm not a 'Linne' by any means. I'm not religious about it.I t's the only Linn Piece I own, or will ever own.
You have to remember that a TT is basically a microscopic mechanical noise amplifier-generator-damping device, in 2 axis, but is sensitive in all 3. What might work well in measurement theory/design doesn't have much to do with complex waveforms from large and multiple octaves of a music signal- and the entire 'chain' that a working TT - is. One example is that the noise goes through different cycles of travel and propogation speed, depending in level and frequency...think about that for a second. One aspect of many. Mechanical noise in a solid medium will go through the same behavioural cycles that a signal in either water or an electrical signal in a wire will go throuugh. Multiple types of behaviour. extremely complex, and damping it dead with mass is simply a very, very bad idea.
The plastic bodied Dual TT's of the mid 80's-90's were teriffic turntables for the money. I had lots of fun with them.
I'm NOT a fan of the suspensionless turntables that abound today. I'm also not a fan of any 'high mass' suspended platter tables, or ones made of machined metals. All very bad news when it comes to controlling resonace and noise.
After that, there are not may TT's left to choose from. You end up with the LP-12 and maybe, maybe 2 others. that's it. Thorens TD125 (MkII and III), maybe. Even it has more issues than a LP- 12. Low suspended mass is very, very, --very--- important, for reasons I won't get into. Then, the way the LP-12 platter is built. It takes 30 days to cut a LP-12 platter, because it is not thermally cycled or stressed during the cutting. It is cut a bit, then let sit. Next day, some more, and sit. One reason the TT costs so much. The result speaks for itself. The platter is the least ringing of all the platters out there..... WITHOUT the absolutely retarded and bass-ackwards addition of 'damping mass'. God, I can't believe people are soooo stupid on that subject. 🙂 (Do me a big favor: remain stupid on that subject. Don't ever figure it out. Stay asleep. Forget everything you just heard - and go back to sleep) One single aspect of dozens of what the LP-12 has, which is more potential than most out there.
I have had the cash and many times have played with far more expensive tables. I have stuck with the LP-12, because like a fine hand built sports car that must be tuned directly to the driver's butt..by that very same driver....it can be made to perform. Persistence and thought are rewarded by this TT.
I'm not a 'Linne' by any means. I'm not religious about it.I t's the only Linn Piece I own, or will ever own.
You have to remember that a TT is basically a microscopic mechanical noise amplifier-generator-damping device, in 2 axis, but is sensitive in all 3. What might work well in measurement theory/design doesn't have much to do with complex waveforms from large and multiple octaves of a music signal- and the entire 'chain' that a working TT - is. One example is that the noise goes through different cycles of travel and propogation speed, depending in level and frequency...think about that for a second. One aspect of many. Mechanical noise in a solid medium will go through the same behavioural cycles that a signal in either water or an electrical signal in a wire will go throuugh. Multiple types of behaviour. extremely complex, and damping it dead with mass is simply a very, very bad idea.
KBK said:
At the risk of appearing ignorant, I thought of my wooden plinth a little like a speaker cabinet and lead lined it and cotton wadded it. Was that a bad idea?
Do you perhaps know of a good reference to explain why what you said about platters is so? (Apologies in advance if you've been asked that many times before).
I currently own a variety of turntables that include several Rek-O-Kuts both idler and belt, a Rega, a Russco, two Duals, three Lencos, two Thorens and the exalted Linn LP12 which I know how to competently tune. I would rate the Lenco in first place, dependent somewhat on the plinth build. A very close second is the Rek-O-Kut belt, but only when converted to a string drive. Third, but with a more laid back presentation is the Linn LP12. The others are doomed to longterm storage, except for the Russco which is destined to become a Keith Monks RCM clone. I believe that to accurately appraise these against one another, or other turntables, one would need to own them all at the same time, and have the ability to use them with a variety of tonearms and cartridges. Is the Linn good? Yes, it is. Is it best? Not here, it isn't. However, not all Linns are created equal, so I wouldn't take from it. Still, it generally sounds like a tweaked Thorens. That isn't a bad thing, but it isn't terribly exciting either.
The thermal stressing aligns and crystalises the aluminum. In a skin and through the depth. It gets turned into a ringing bell. Almost like aligning the molecules in a neo magnet, to obtain a polarized magnetic field. In this case, highly machined aluminum that has not been allowed to relax between cuttings (and learning when to stop is an art, I'd wager) will turn into a very nice long tailed resonant bell. Very bad, as it is long term noise.
Lead is not so bad, specifically when allied to the wood. You might try epoxying the lead to the wood. The better bond might (extremely likely to) work better. But, you might only have to use half the density in that case. This would make for more flexable lead,and thus more thermal dissipation. There are drawbacks, but you'll have to think through exactly what is going on. The lead is both good and bad. The higher the loading of the epoxy with the carbon (strands of you can get them) and the quartz silicate you can get to, the better.
Add pure carbon and fine quartz silicate to the epoxy. You may find you prefer that to the lead, instead of using it as an interface between the lead and the wood. Wood on it's own is quite amazing. You don't want to ruin the wood by soaking it, but to merely bond the now 'filled' epoxy to the wood.
I now have to stop, as I'm nearing the are where I get into proprietary understandings of how physical stuctures should be built for the audio business, and my business partner would simply kill me out of hand for sharing such. I do apologize if that comes off badly. I hate getting those phone calls where I get yelled at.
And yes, the Linn's are very variable. Be sure your LP12 has the proper curve at the tips of the upper plate, as thse tips of the metal are supposed to cut into the corners and the middle is supposed to press..but near the ends, there is supposed to be no contact. Each edge of the metal plate is supposed to look like an incredibly shallow 'M' shape, touching wood only at the bottom three points of the M. This is, of course, another critical point that most miss..and LP 12's can have this particular aspect damaged, and do, quite often. People sometimes see it, and try and fix it. Tighten those screws! They ruin the sound of the table in the process...and they ruin the plate.
idler designs, with record clamps, have the potential to sound more dynamic than any other table in existence. Most turntables suffer from a lack of linearity in extreme dynamics due to reearward 'slip' of the record itself from the lateral shift of the stylus under hard/fast/loud recorded dynamics. The idler fixes this, with massive torque. The differences are micro in size, yes..but the nature of the signal is micro,and thus the whole thing turns out to be very important.
Lead is not so bad, specifically when allied to the wood. You might try epoxying the lead to the wood. The better bond might (extremely likely to) work better. But, you might only have to use half the density in that case. This would make for more flexable lead,and thus more thermal dissipation. There are drawbacks, but you'll have to think through exactly what is going on. The lead is both good and bad. The higher the loading of the epoxy with the carbon (strands of you can get them) and the quartz silicate you can get to, the better.
Add pure carbon and fine quartz silicate to the epoxy. You may find you prefer that to the lead, instead of using it as an interface between the lead and the wood. Wood on it's own is quite amazing. You don't want to ruin the wood by soaking it, but to merely bond the now 'filled' epoxy to the wood.
I now have to stop, as I'm nearing the are where I get into proprietary understandings of how physical stuctures should be built for the audio business, and my business partner would simply kill me out of hand for sharing such. I do apologize if that comes off badly. I hate getting those phone calls where I get yelled at.
And yes, the Linn's are very variable. Be sure your LP12 has the proper curve at the tips of the upper plate, as thse tips of the metal are supposed to cut into the corners and the middle is supposed to press..but near the ends, there is supposed to be no contact. Each edge of the metal plate is supposed to look like an incredibly shallow 'M' shape, touching wood only at the bottom three points of the M. This is, of course, another critical point that most miss..and LP 12's can have this particular aspect damaged, and do, quite often. People sometimes see it, and try and fix it. Tighten those screws! They ruin the sound of the table in the process...and they ruin the plate.
idler designs, with record clamps, have the potential to sound more dynamic than any other table in existence. Most turntables suffer from a lack of linearity in extreme dynamics due to reearward 'slip' of the record itself from the lateral shift of the stylus under hard/fast/loud recorded dynamics. The idler fixes this, with massive torque. The differences are micro in size, yes..but the nature of the signal is micro,and thus the whole thing turns out to be very important.
The Tt Wars
WEll i have heard i LINn LP12 a long time agoit was pretty amazing at the time.
THE the most amazing TT i have ever heard was a Goldmund reference(that reference was a belt drive but very massive) from the mid 1980s about $20k australian dollars impressed me more than the Linn ever did ( I did listen to the GoldMund for about
35 minutes ) i would love to hear the LINN up against the Garrards 301, 401 and a similar heavy plinth Lenco HMMMMMMMMMMMMM
at least you wouldn't need to tweak it every day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WEll i have heard i LINn LP12 a long time agoit was pretty amazing at the time.
THE the most amazing TT i have ever heard was a Goldmund reference(that reference was a belt drive but very massive) from the mid 1980s about $20k australian dollars impressed me more than the Linn ever did ( I did listen to the GoldMund for about
35 minutes ) i would love to hear the LINN up against the Garrards 301, 401 and a similar heavy plinth Lenco HMMMMMMMMMMMMM
at least you wouldn't need to tweak it every day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
LP12
KBK, have you ever heard a Linn fitted with a dc motor? I fitted an Origin Live kit to mine years ago and it transformed it. The mid bass hump you refer to vanishes and moves the deck up to another level. Since fitting the dc motor I've never been tempted to replace it with something else.
The only idler drive tt I can say I liked was a Thorens TD124.I heard this deck through a pair of Leak TL 12 pluses driving Quad ESL53's.I can't remember what the cartridge was but the arm was a 3009. The power and authority was really quite startling. The Lenco I had then couldn't come close and I bought an Ariston RD80 as a stopgap.It had no power and certainly no authority but it wasn't coloured like the 124(probably it's only real fault) but it served me well until I bought the Linn.I think the worst thing I did was to swap my Empire with Mayware Mk4 for the Lenco. A decision I regret to this day.Now that was a turntable!To get back to the original thread, I remember when the Garrard Zero model came out.My mate replaced his SP25 mk111 with one.He never liked the arm and later bought a Thorens TD125 with SME series three.In comparison a revelation.
Si.
KBK, have you ever heard a Linn fitted with a dc motor? I fitted an Origin Live kit to mine years ago and it transformed it. The mid bass hump you refer to vanishes and moves the deck up to another level. Since fitting the dc motor I've never been tempted to replace it with something else.
The only idler drive tt I can say I liked was a Thorens TD124.I heard this deck through a pair of Leak TL 12 pluses driving Quad ESL53's.I can't remember what the cartridge was but the arm was a 3009. The power and authority was really quite startling. The Lenco I had then couldn't come close and I bought an Ariston RD80 as a stopgap.It had no power and certainly no authority but it wasn't coloured like the 124(probably it's only real fault) but it served me well until I bought the Linn.I think the worst thing I did was to swap my Empire with Mayware Mk4 for the Lenco. A decision I regret to this day.Now that was a turntable!To get back to the original thread, I remember when the Garrard Zero model came out.My mate replaced his SP25 mk111 with one.He never liked the arm and later bought a Thorens TD125 with SME series three.In comparison a revelation.
Si.
Have been very busy with tuning lately but need lots more time. I only concentrate on the deck at this moment. The arm is from later concern.
There have been lots of try and error and only a few were real improvements. I manage to get out a good controlled bass an mid but the rumble still is there.
The bearing puzzles me. Would like to see how the famous greasebearing from the Garrard 301 looks like. It is possible that some of the rumble is coming through (or from) the bearing 😕
Need much more time before I am ready to compare it with a Linn or other fine TT’s. But I still believe in the zero100s. The idler drive gives an amount of control that suprised me.
So be continued, first a month holiday, no audio no internet.
There have been lots of try and error and only a few were real improvements. I manage to get out a good controlled bass an mid but the rumble still is there.
The bearing puzzles me. Would like to see how the famous greasebearing from the Garrard 301 looks like. It is possible that some of the rumble is coming through (or from) the bearing 😕
Need much more time before I am ready to compare it with a Linn or other fine TT’s. But I still believe in the zero100s. The idler drive gives an amount of control that suprised me.
So be continued, first a month holiday, no audio no internet.
A lot off experimenting has been done. In the following reports the most successful results.
First the bass, I found the bass from the Zero 100S not as tight and controlled as I hoped for. An idler wheel construction must be able to give a fine and controlled base!!
I noticed that when starting the motor there was a vibration and it is visible on the strobe that it takes a while (30 seconds) to run the platter on speed and to stop the vibration. The same happened when cleaning the record with a cleaning brush while turning, the speed slows quickly and a vibration occurs.
My conclusion: there isn’t enough grip from the idler wheel with the platter. Cleaning the idler wheel and the platter didn’t give any improvement. It took a little while but I managed to buy I new idler wheel (rumble sale for 2,50 euro!). After replacing the wheel the problems didn’t disappear. So it must be something else. The only thing left was a lack of force from the tiny spring. I shortened it 3 windings.
The result was a firm grip from the idler wheel. And the sound…. a much more and tighter bass.
First the bass, I found the bass from the Zero 100S not as tight and controlled as I hoped for. An idler wheel construction must be able to give a fine and controlled base!!
I noticed that when starting the motor there was a vibration and it is visible on the strobe that it takes a while (30 seconds) to run the platter on speed and to stop the vibration. The same happened when cleaning the record with a cleaning brush while turning, the speed slows quickly and a vibration occurs.
My conclusion: there isn’t enough grip from the idler wheel with the platter. Cleaning the idler wheel and the platter didn’t give any improvement. It took a little while but I managed to buy I new idler wheel (rumble sale for 2,50 euro!). After replacing the wheel the problems didn’t disappear. So it must be something else. The only thing left was a lack of force from the tiny spring. I shortened it 3 windings.
The result was a firm grip from the idler wheel. And the sound…. a much more and tighter bass.
Attachments
The rumble problem 1
I used a test record and connect the Zero with a laptop oscilloscope. Doing that I discovered there was a resonance at about 150 Hz and 3000Hz. The problem was not the idler wheel but again bad connections from the cartridge holder.
I think this construction can cause a lot of problems and probably the reason why a lot of people hate this arm.
It is not only bad connections with the copper strips but also the sliding construction.
Cleaning the connectors and getting a firm connection between the sliding cartridge holder and the armslot solved the problem.
I used a test record and connect the Zero with a laptop oscilloscope. Doing that I discovered there was a resonance at about 150 Hz and 3000Hz. The problem was not the idler wheel but again bad connections from the cartridge holder.
I think this construction can cause a lot of problems and probably the reason why a lot of people hate this arm.
It is not only bad connections with the copper strips but also the sliding construction.
Cleaning the connectors and getting a firm connection between the sliding cartridge holder and the armslot solved the problem.
Attachments
The rumble problem 2
As I told before for the rumble I am going to cheat a little. I changed my phono amp from a Cambridge audio 540p to a 640P model. The Cambridge 640P is a more expensive but still affordable, the 640P offers mm and mc stage, both uses discrete transistors, single ended class A with perfect RIAA equalization.
But the 640P features a subsonic filter!.
This filter cuts out very low frequency rumble and does this without changing the low quality (at least almost not noticeable by me).
As I told before for the rumble I am going to cheat a little. I changed my phono amp from a Cambridge audio 540p to a 640P model. The Cambridge 640P is a more expensive but still affordable, the 640P offers mm and mc stage, both uses discrete transistors, single ended class A with perfect RIAA equalization.
But the 640P features a subsonic filter!.
This filter cuts out very low frequency rumble and does this without changing the low quality (at least almost not noticeable by me).
Attachments
The rumble problem 3
Solution 2 is cheating but it works. But this one solves its problem almost at the source. The platter of the zero is build with two parts, the black inner platter from steel which is driven by the idler wheel and directly screwed on top of this platter a aluminum platter with rubber mat.
I isolated the two platters from each other with double sided foam tape. I use two kinds a black more firm rubber type (in a car store to stick side strips on a car) and a white foamy kind (just a plane double side tape.
And now you can adjust the aluminum platter exactly by turning the 3 screws. I isolated the screws also from vibration by using a thin piece of round foam.
Result a rumble reduction without quality loss of sound.
Sorry no picture of this solution. Coming soon I hope.
Conclusions after the changes in previous post.
1. After improving the spring force there is a much better base fundament. Now only a better cartridge can improve it. I think I am almost on the limit from the motor and idler construction. The cartridge is now the weakest link.
2. The cartridge holder is a weak construction. Clean it and be sure that it is firm in the arm holder. I think this is one of the reasons (or main reason) why the arm is so underappreciated.
3. The rumble is reduced a lot but still there is some. Only noticeable at silent music parts. Probable the platterbearing needs more attention.
To be continued.
Solution 2 is cheating but it works. But this one solves its problem almost at the source. The platter of the zero is build with two parts, the black inner platter from steel which is driven by the idler wheel and directly screwed on top of this platter a aluminum platter with rubber mat.
I isolated the two platters from each other with double sided foam tape. I use two kinds a black more firm rubber type (in a car store to stick side strips on a car) and a white foamy kind (just a plane double side tape.
And now you can adjust the aluminum platter exactly by turning the 3 screws. I isolated the screws also from vibration by using a thin piece of round foam.
Result a rumble reduction without quality loss of sound.
Sorry no picture of this solution. Coming soon I hope.
Conclusions after the changes in previous post.
1. After improving the spring force there is a much better base fundament. Now only a better cartridge can improve it. I think I am almost on the limit from the motor and idler construction. The cartridge is now the weakest link.
2. The cartridge holder is a weak construction. Clean it and be sure that it is firm in the arm holder. I think this is one of the reasons (or main reason) why the arm is so underappreciated.
3. The rumble is reduced a lot but still there is some. Only noticeable at silent music parts. Probable the platterbearing needs more attention.
To be continued.
Zero 100---hmmmmmmmm
I disassemble and clean vintage turntables for an antique audio business. I usually work on older machines, but I did go through a Z100 a couple of years ago.
I recall being disappointed with what it looked like as compared to what it really was. You will probably get rid of this Z100 because it probably has thickened (oxidized) vegetable grease grease in it. The motor will probably wear out if you don't take it apart to clean and oil the bearings....They love MobilOne 5W30.
The problem with idler drives is not the idler (you are lucky if it doesn't have a flat spot) so much as motor vibration coming up through the deck. Garrard used good motor mounts and they minimized the vibration, but these are AC motors. It takes an expensive balance job to calm them down. Do to the modulating field I don't think they can be made motionless like a DC motor. I do recall a Telefunken AC motor that was so smooth that I thought it was bad until I touched the shaft and found that it was turning.
Put a plastic coke top on the deck with the motor running, but in neutral (idler not touching the platter). Put the stylus on the coke top. This will show you how much vibration is coming through the deck.
As is the case with the over-rated Duals, there is probably a large mass of gizmos and levers hooked to the tone arm shaft undernearth the deck. I get the Z100 mixed up with the Lab 80.
The Lab 80 is a MONSTER.
These high-end changers had some strong points, but as an integrated audio machine they are all dissapointments (by today's standards). One should recall that they were being compared to the hundreds of junko changers that had been on the market since the dawn of the LP era in 1948.
Also, I recall that after I had finished this Z100 it came back with no signal output. The signal wires were so thin that tarnish had literally dissolved them. Routing new wires is a test of patience. There us a hidden mystery screw under a plate in the tone arm as I recall... had to make a special screwdriver.
Anyhow, the Z100 is an advertizer's changer. The arm is a piece of junk with probably more error than a standard S-arm. Again, take a look under the deck and see how much mass is under there. With few exceptions the tonearm is pushing a "velocity trip" lever inward so it will trip the changer cycle at the end. The velocity trip cog is bouncing the lever back towards the tone arm with each revolution.
I have junked probably a hundred changers and manual turntables. Almost without exception the Dual platters are warped and the strobe wanders with the RPM. The belt drives have speed error as bad most of the older changers. The platters are not round.
The Technics Quartslock direct drive is probably the best deal ever for a budget turntable. Figure out how to put the headshell on properly and they work quite well. Get a Shure M97E and you'll have an excellent budget system.
If you get a belt drive, make sure it has a nylon or plastic inner hub that the platter sits on. They are usually machined round. Most of the Duals were probably round for several years, but if the aluminum is not cooled just right at the factory internal stresses in the platter will warp it over many years.
Audio is a game, play it well. Best Regards, Mark
I disassemble and clean vintage turntables for an antique audio business. I usually work on older machines, but I did go through a Z100 a couple of years ago.
I recall being disappointed with what it looked like as compared to what it really was. You will probably get rid of this Z100 because it probably has thickened (oxidized) vegetable grease grease in it. The motor will probably wear out if you don't take it apart to clean and oil the bearings....They love MobilOne 5W30.
The problem with idler drives is not the idler (you are lucky if it doesn't have a flat spot) so much as motor vibration coming up through the deck. Garrard used good motor mounts and they minimized the vibration, but these are AC motors. It takes an expensive balance job to calm them down. Do to the modulating field I don't think they can be made motionless like a DC motor. I do recall a Telefunken AC motor that was so smooth that I thought it was bad until I touched the shaft and found that it was turning.
Put a plastic coke top on the deck with the motor running, but in neutral (idler not touching the platter). Put the stylus on the coke top. This will show you how much vibration is coming through the deck.
As is the case with the over-rated Duals, there is probably a large mass of gizmos and levers hooked to the tone arm shaft undernearth the deck. I get the Z100 mixed up with the Lab 80.
The Lab 80 is a MONSTER.
These high-end changers had some strong points, but as an integrated audio machine they are all dissapointments (by today's standards). One should recall that they were being compared to the hundreds of junko changers that had been on the market since the dawn of the LP era in 1948.
Also, I recall that after I had finished this Z100 it came back with no signal output. The signal wires were so thin that tarnish had literally dissolved them. Routing new wires is a test of patience. There us a hidden mystery screw under a plate in the tone arm as I recall... had to make a special screwdriver.
Anyhow, the Z100 is an advertizer's changer. The arm is a piece of junk with probably more error than a standard S-arm. Again, take a look under the deck and see how much mass is under there. With few exceptions the tonearm is pushing a "velocity trip" lever inward so it will trip the changer cycle at the end. The velocity trip cog is bouncing the lever back towards the tone arm with each revolution.
I have junked probably a hundred changers and manual turntables. Almost without exception the Dual platters are warped and the strobe wanders with the RPM. The belt drives have speed error as bad most of the older changers. The platters are not round.
The Technics Quartslock direct drive is probably the best deal ever for a budget turntable. Figure out how to put the headshell on properly and they work quite well. Get a Shure M97E and you'll have an excellent budget system.
If you get a belt drive, make sure it has a nylon or plastic inner hub that the platter sits on. They are usually machined round. Most of the Duals were probably round for several years, but if the aluminum is not cooled just right at the factory internal stresses in the platter will warp it over many years.
Audio is a game, play it well. Best Regards, Mark
Thanks for your comment Hailteflon, I am getting “love” sober again, it is maybe not the best TT around.
But then your coke top trick learned me something. There is rumble with motor off!! So improvements can be made. And I love to do some mechanics on this z100, sorry can’t help it still bit in love.
I have already cleaned the bearings and freshly greased them including the motor bearings, also a big difference for the rumble.
But then your coke top trick learned me something. There is rumble with motor off!! So improvements can be made. And I love to do some mechanics on this z100, sorry can’t help it still bit in love.
I have already cleaned the bearings and freshly greased them including the motor bearings, also a big difference for the rumble.
The competition has begun, first round the Garrard Z100s against Linn LP12.
My competitor is a LinnLP12 with a Lingo powersupply, a Benz Ace low output cartridge and a Creek phonoamp.
My team is a obsolete Garrard 100s idler drive, a Audio Technica AT71 or 95e (?) cartridge and a Cambridge Audio 640p phonoamp.
The rest of the gear: Accuphase amp and pointsource drivers from Tannoy.
Honest contest? The Linn is probably more then 10 times the price of mine. But we shall hear.
My competitor is a LinnLP12 with a Lingo powersupply, a Benz Ace low output cartridge and a Creek phonoamp.
My team is a obsolete Garrard 100s idler drive, a Audio Technica AT71 or 95e (?) cartridge and a Cambridge Audio 640p phonoamp.
The rest of the gear: Accuphase amp and pointsource drivers from Tannoy.
Honest contest? The Linn is probably more then 10 times the price of mine. But we shall hear.
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It did not needed hours of listening to conclude that the Linn is a different league than the Z100s. There is more overall dynamic, there is more bass but more important it is more direct, and the high is more at ease, it is without sharp ssss and ttt sounds and still there is more detail.
With a different league I mean really two leagues higher in the competition. But more important than that is what I learned from this first round.
What specially had my attention is to make a comparison in the amount of rumble. This is what I am working for in the last month’s, rumble and bass.
My experience:
1. In this session there is no more rumble on the Garrard idler drive to detect than on the Linn, there was almost no rumble detectable from both machines. Previous with my stethoscope there is noise from the motor and with the audio equipment at my own home there is some rumble detectable from the z100s, but only at a high volume level and with silent parts from for instance classical music. At home I have a Linn amp which gives more detail.
2. the bass from the Z100s is sloppy comparing to the Linn. It goes low (on my scope to 30Hz) but it is not strong enough and not fast enough. I had concluded this already at home comparing records with the same music on CD.
3. the high is not as pure as from the Linn, but still I think this is the best part from the Z100s
4. even changing cartridges did not gave improvement, waste off money to buy a better one. We tried:
a. MM AT71 (or 95e?) my standard cartridge doing OK
b. MM Shure V15 mkIII no better than the AT71
c. MC Linn Karma best result, but no big improvement
Experience 1 is the most important to me. In this session there is no more rumble to detect on the Garrard than on a Linn LP12!!!! After some simple modifications and to be honest most of it is simple standard maintenance, clean it and put the right oil and grease on the right place that is 90% of the work. The biggest modification I did was isolating the two platters from each other with double sided foam tape. But I think even when you remove the standard mat and replace it with a filth mat there is a some improvement and the rumble is reduced a lot.
With a different league I mean really two leagues higher in the competition. But more important than that is what I learned from this first round.
What specially had my attention is to make a comparison in the amount of rumble. This is what I am working for in the last month’s, rumble and bass.
My experience:
1. In this session there is no more rumble on the Garrard idler drive to detect than on the Linn, there was almost no rumble detectable from both machines. Previous with my stethoscope there is noise from the motor and with the audio equipment at my own home there is some rumble detectable from the z100s, but only at a high volume level and with silent parts from for instance classical music. At home I have a Linn amp which gives more detail.
2. the bass from the Z100s is sloppy comparing to the Linn. It goes low (on my scope to 30Hz) but it is not strong enough and not fast enough. I had concluded this already at home comparing records with the same music on CD.
3. the high is not as pure as from the Linn, but still I think this is the best part from the Z100s
4. even changing cartridges did not gave improvement, waste off money to buy a better one. We tried:
a. MM AT71 (or 95e?) my standard cartridge doing OK
b. MM Shure V15 mkIII no better than the AT71
c. MC Linn Karma best result, but no big improvement
Experience 1 is the most important to me. In this session there is no more rumble to detect on the Garrard than on a Linn LP12!!!! After some simple modifications and to be honest most of it is simple standard maintenance, clean it and put the right oil and grease on the right place that is 90% of the work. The biggest modification I did was isolating the two platters from each other with double sided foam tape. But I think even when you remove the standard mat and replace it with a filth mat there is a some improvement and the rumble is reduced a lot.
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