Help, I am falling in love with a Garrard Zero 100S!!!
The question is at the end, first my story.
After almost a year orientating for a new tt I decided to buy a Garrard Zero 100 S from EBay. I choose the Garrard mostly because I want to try an idler drive and less for the arm with the zero angle fault because with a normal tt the fault is only a few degrees. And off course its price, it’s a steal, much cheaper than 301 or 401.
When I opened the package I also felt for it looks. The arm and platter looks great, even my wife agreed, this is a nice piece of audio equipment. But from a total different design than his famous brothers 301 and 401.
The reason for choosing this Garrard with (obsolete?) idler drive technique is that I am aiming for a more controlled drive which hopefully results in a tight base a good quality mid but probably a messy high because of the bad bearings of the special arm of the Garrard. And of course there is rumble to expect.
So the first listening impression:
Worst than I expected. A big disappointment, what a rumble, unbelievable!
But wait, this is no rumble, something is wrong! After a while I discovered the fault; bad connections in the tone arm, there is a sliding cartridge holder with some metal strip connectors. I cleaned and bend them a little to make a good electrical contact.
Second impression:
Not bad at all. Yes very good but not what I expected:
-the high region was bright, a lot of detail, not too sharp, beautiful.
-the mid was great, nothing to complain just what I expected.
-there is a lot of low, down to the very low regions, but not with sharp attack and punch, more round and more analogue.
-stage is extraordinary good, with a good quality record there is a certain live experience with different layers of sound.
Above conclusions after listening to LP and comparing it with the same album on CD and comparing it with my previous tt.
My equipment is a Linn Classic amplifier and CD player and Italian Diapason speakers. Normally this combination gives with CD a lot of speed because of the design from the Linn but also because the Diapason low/mid driver is direct drive (no XO or BSC ) and just a simple 1e order XO for the tweeter. The Phono Pre amp is from Cambridge audio.
My previous TT was a Sony PS-X4, this is a plain consumer tt, direct drive, not the worst not the best.
About the rumble. There is some, when I turn the amp volume at 70% level and with silent passage of for instance classical music. It is more than the direct drive Sony, there is more detail so also more rumble. But is rumble the only thing to the quality of an tt?
This tt has got a lot of potential. Bear in mind that I did nothing special for preparing and adjustment. Only needle weight and tracking force.
I think after some tuning it can meet the level from other better than average tt’s. And that is my challenge for the coming time to prepare, compare it and let it exceed more common tt’s. Hopefully with the help of this forum.
What I think can be improved:
-its low can be with more attack and speed.
-the rumble
I really do not understand the amount of negative comments there is on the internet for this tt. There are only few exceptions like: http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/garrarde.html
If you have experience with this Garrard zero100s idler drive please share this with me. If you have suggestions to improve it let me know. I am challenging other tt’s like Linn and Micro Seiki. The Sony was too easy to beat.
To be continued.
The question is at the end, first my story.
After almost a year orientating for a new tt I decided to buy a Garrard Zero 100 S from EBay. I choose the Garrard mostly because I want to try an idler drive and less for the arm with the zero angle fault because with a normal tt the fault is only a few degrees. And off course its price, it’s a steal, much cheaper than 301 or 401.
When I opened the package I also felt for it looks. The arm and platter looks great, even my wife agreed, this is a nice piece of audio equipment. But from a total different design than his famous brothers 301 and 401.
The reason for choosing this Garrard with (obsolete?) idler drive technique is that I am aiming for a more controlled drive which hopefully results in a tight base a good quality mid but probably a messy high because of the bad bearings of the special arm of the Garrard. And of course there is rumble to expect.
So the first listening impression:
Worst than I expected. A big disappointment, what a rumble, unbelievable!
But wait, this is no rumble, something is wrong! After a while I discovered the fault; bad connections in the tone arm, there is a sliding cartridge holder with some metal strip connectors. I cleaned and bend them a little to make a good electrical contact.
Second impression:
Not bad at all. Yes very good but not what I expected:
-the high region was bright, a lot of detail, not too sharp, beautiful.
-the mid was great, nothing to complain just what I expected.
-there is a lot of low, down to the very low regions, but not with sharp attack and punch, more round and more analogue.
-stage is extraordinary good, with a good quality record there is a certain live experience with different layers of sound.
Above conclusions after listening to LP and comparing it with the same album on CD and comparing it with my previous tt.
My equipment is a Linn Classic amplifier and CD player and Italian Diapason speakers. Normally this combination gives with CD a lot of speed because of the design from the Linn but also because the Diapason low/mid driver is direct drive (no XO or BSC ) and just a simple 1e order XO for the tweeter. The Phono Pre amp is from Cambridge audio.
My previous TT was a Sony PS-X4, this is a plain consumer tt, direct drive, not the worst not the best.
About the rumble. There is some, when I turn the amp volume at 70% level and with silent passage of for instance classical music. It is more than the direct drive Sony, there is more detail so also more rumble. But is rumble the only thing to the quality of an tt?
This tt has got a lot of potential. Bear in mind that I did nothing special for preparing and adjustment. Only needle weight and tracking force.
I think after some tuning it can meet the level from other better than average tt’s. And that is my challenge for the coming time to prepare, compare it and let it exceed more common tt’s. Hopefully with the help of this forum.
What I think can be improved:
-its low can be with more attack and speed.
-the rumble
I really do not understand the amount of negative comments there is on the internet for this tt. There are only few exceptions like: http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/garrarde.html
If you have experience with this Garrard zero100s idler drive please share this with me. If you have suggestions to improve it let me know. I am challenging other tt’s like Linn and Micro Seiki. The Sony was too easy to beat.
To be continued.
Attachments
I have a Garrard 100 too. I replaced the arm on mine as I didn't like it.
The Garrard is a good performing idler but it isn't great. The bearing is a ball bearing race and this is noisier than a standard bearing.
If you get a chance to compare it with a Garrard 301/401 or Lenco L75/78/88 or 99 then you will see that the 100 is about 80% of the others...
As it is it is more than good enough to show a clean pair of heels to a lot of other turnatables including the LP12 and its ilk.
James
The Garrard is a good performing idler but it isn't great. The bearing is a ball bearing race and this is noisier than a standard bearing.
If you get a chance to compare it with a Garrard 301/401 or Lenco L75/78/88 or 99 then you will see that the 100 is about 80% of the others...
As it is it is more than good enough to show a clean pair of heels to a lot of other turnatables including the LP12 and its ilk.
James
James, now it makes sense. I never figured why people love the small Lencos and not the Garrad 100S. I thought it had to do with snobism.
I second the Lenco L75 and L78. Easily the best bargains in audio.
Edit: The LP12 is about snobism. The small Thorens TD-150/160 are just as good, but cost a fraction of the LP12.
I second the Lenco L75 and L78. Easily the best bargains in audio.
Edit: The LP12 is about snobism. The small Thorens TD-150/160 are just as good, but cost a fraction of the LP12.
I don't wish anything...
I've demo it and done it a few times to LP12 owners ...
Upsets them until they realise how much money they can sell their LP12s for on ebay and how many records they can buy with the difference after buying a good deck.
Most buy Lencos cos they're even better. Some buy Garrard 301/401s cos they can - but its the well fettled 100 that gets then rolling...
New plinth, new arm and a good service and thats all you need.
Ohh and an open mind and open ears 🙂
I have and still use:
Ariston SL110E - as a belt drive reference as I perferred it to the LP12
Goldring Lenco GL78
Kenwood KD990
Aiwa RP2600K
JVC QL-7A
Optonics RP7100
Garrard 100S
Digital Design DRS-1
Technics SL1000
lots of different arms and cartridges
I won't bother to list the ones I've had and sold like LP12, Gyro, Scheu Premier...
...wouldn't want you to think I had no basis for comparision
James
I've demo it and done it a few times to LP12 owners ...
Upsets them until they realise how much money they can sell their LP12s for on ebay and how many records they can buy with the difference after buying a good deck.
Most buy Lencos cos they're even better. Some buy Garrard 301/401s cos they can - but its the well fettled 100 that gets then rolling...
New plinth, new arm and a good service and thats all you need.
Ohh and an open mind and open ears 🙂
I have and still use:
Ariston SL110E - as a belt drive reference as I perferred it to the LP12
Goldring Lenco GL78
Kenwood KD990
Aiwa RP2600K
JVC QL-7A
Optonics RP7100
Garrard 100S
Digital Design DRS-1
Technics SL1000
lots of different arms and cartridges
I won't bother to list the ones I've had and sold like LP12, Gyro, Scheu Premier...
...wouldn't want you to think I had no basis for comparision
James
Hi,
You claim the 100S " as it is " is better than the " LP12 and its ilk ".
This is simply not true and pure wishful thinking.
My first turntable was a rebuilt Lenco GL60 with new arm and massive plinth.
The first subchassis turntable I rebuilt completely slaughtered it.
Getting subchassis turntables singing is a black art, I accept that.
The 100S needs a new arm and rebuilding to stand a chance of being good.
Though with some tweaking and the right cartridge could sound quite nice.
🙂/sreten.
You claim the 100S " as it is " is better than the " LP12 and its ilk ".
This is simply not true and pure wishful thinking.
My first turntable was a rebuilt Lenco GL60 with new arm and massive plinth.
The first subchassis turntable I rebuilt completely slaughtered it.
Getting subchassis turntables singing is a black art, I accept that.
The 100S needs a new arm and rebuilding to stand a chance of being good.
Though with some tweaking and the right cartridge could sound quite nice.
🙂/sreten.
I'm falling in love with an idler tt
Hi Triumph
Here's my handkerchief! If you play vinyl, your heart's in the right place.
I once 're-commissioned' one of these tt's for a local violinmaker.
When I delivered the job (which had a kaput wire inside the arm), the old guy told me at the time he bought it new, he had listened to a fair number of other tt's, before deciding on the Garrard.
The bearing and the arm IS a problem but these can be replaced or tweaked to make them into something acceptable by audiophile standards.
Cheers
bulgin
Hi Triumph
Here's my handkerchief! If you play vinyl, your heart's in the right place.
I once 're-commissioned' one of these tt's for a local violinmaker.
When I delivered the job (which had a kaput wire inside the arm), the old guy told me at the time he bought it new, he had listened to a fair number of other tt's, before deciding on the Garrard.
The bearing and the arm IS a problem but these can be replaced or tweaked to make them into something acceptable by audiophile standards.
Cheers
bulgin
Well sreten,
If you bother to read my post you will see I said it has a new arm and plinth...
Oh dear, oh dear...
But thank you for reminding why I gave up posting here
If you bother to read my post you will see I said it has a new arm and plinth...
Oh dear, oh dear...
But thank you for reminding why I gave up posting here
sreten said:
😉
to each his own.........
but-with no doubts-LP12 is one of most overrated "censored word here" in audio world.......perfect example of typical Hi-Fi mumbo jumbo......
and-if that is of any validity-I didn't own one,but I repaired and tweaked few, and have opportunity to compare it with few "crappy" TTs....give me always one of those crappy.........especially for 5% of LP12's price ......
Hi Triumph,
I use a Dual 1226 idler drive which I picked up in near new condition. It has a good arm which I've kept. I needed to lubricate the unit and calibrate it, and in time I damped it and replaced the cartridge.
I find this unit to be smooth and quiet. I have a friend who is a Garrard enthusiat and even he comments on my TT, surprised at what the idler can do.
I use a Dual 1226 idler drive which I picked up in near new condition. It has a good arm which I've kept. I needed to lubricate the unit and calibrate it, and in time I damped it and replaced the cartridge.
I find this unit to be smooth and quiet. I have a friend who is a Garrard enthusiat and even he comments on my TT, surprised at what the idler can do.
I think the main bearing isn’t a problem. But the bearing is a bid strange to me. Seems to be a combination from a grease slider and a ball bearing. I cleaned the ball bearing and re-greased it. It is maybe not the best but it was and still is dead silent. Can someone explain how it works?
But there is a tweetie sound somewhere. I am using my stethoscope to locate noises. Probably next weak ill have some more time.
Indm, going to Google to look how your Dual looks like.
Bulging, first the motor, idler and platform after that the arm will get my attention. If you have any ideas pleas let me know.
About the rumble I am thinking to cheat a little.
But there is a tweetie sound somewhere. I am using my stethoscope to locate noises. Probably next weak ill have some more time.
Indm, going to Google to look how your Dual looks like.
Bulging, first the motor, idler and platform after that the arm will get my attention. If you have any ideas pleas let me know.
About the rumble I am thinking to cheat a little.
Attachments
James D.
The internet and especially this forum is a great medium to talk about your hobby. But from the start I also read some unfriendly or sarcastic post. I have learned not to bother it. Sometimes it may not be mend that way, on writing words are different than spoken. The person from the post can be in real a very nice person. But me, I am hopefully writing in a good way, in real life I am a as*hole.
I am using this forum to learn something, practice my English writing and share my knowledge and experience with others in an informal way.
So please do not stop to post I really appreciate your reply with all the information.
not an idler ...but
a "well fettered" SB100 Zero is what I have. I've been playing with the arm. I think the real culprit in the arm is as tnt suggested, a poor pivot for the headshell and the sliding headshell adapter. I've torn mine apart. with a little work the pivot can be improved (wrap some teflon tape around the pivot shaft and reinstall. Take the frigin sliding thing off, hog out a spot for 1/2 spaced mounting screws to go.
No new plinth (mine is the Aluminum type), hey but stuff it full of playdoh or similar non hardening stuff.. whatever to dampen the plinth. I will say that the ICs are absolutely poor. I'm replacing mine with Mogami or Canare microphone cable..
The bearing on this is different, a ball bearing spindle arrangementand pretty much absolutely quiet.
Regardless of "neigh sayers", you have a cool table that few would even consider (I thank tnt for pointing it out on the net). I paid USD $20 equivalent for mine (no dust cover) at a local pawn shop.
have a bunch of fun and enjoy.
a "well fettered" SB100 Zero is what I have. I've been playing with the arm. I think the real culprit in the arm is as tnt suggested, a poor pivot for the headshell and the sliding headshell adapter. I've torn mine apart. with a little work the pivot can be improved (wrap some teflon tape around the pivot shaft and reinstall. Take the frigin sliding thing off, hog out a spot for 1/2 spaced mounting screws to go.
No new plinth (mine is the Aluminum type), hey but stuff it full of playdoh or similar non hardening stuff.. whatever to dampen the plinth. I will say that the ICs are absolutely poor. I'm replacing mine with Mogami or Canare microphone cable..
The bearing on this is different, a ball bearing spindle arrangementand pretty much absolutely quiet.
Regardless of "neigh sayers", you have a cool table that few would even consider (I thank tnt for pointing it out on the net). I paid USD $20 equivalent for mine (no dust cover) at a local pawn shop.
have a bunch of fun and enjoy.
well, the point really is????????????
The point is a well balanced well exceuted turntable design whatever
the drive system will sound good!!!!!!!
even a Direct drive willl sound great well executed something like a kenwood LOD-7 springs to mind
the huge MIcro SEKIIS
i have tweaked a system deck "2" the oil rig type out of its original performance into something else
the Garrad 100s certainly needs a new arm and if it has ball race rather than a single point bearing that would be its downfall not its idler operation!!!!!!!!
Funny that all the great TTs not "JUST" the cult items have massive over built bearings!!!! my sytem decks limitation is its well made but small bearing, i can't put any more mass onto the bearing
it is in the circular plinth it made a made a hugh difference!!!!!
i do like the sound of indm's Dual which really took off with a new modern cartridge
The point is a well balanced well exceuted turntable design whatever
the drive system will sound good!!!!!!!
even a Direct drive willl sound great well executed something like a kenwood LOD-7 springs to mind
the huge MIcro SEKIIS
i have tweaked a system deck "2" the oil rig type out of its original performance into something else
the Garrad 100s certainly needs a new arm and if it has ball race rather than a single point bearing that would be its downfall not its idler operation!!!!!!!!
Funny that all the great TTs not "JUST" the cult items have massive over built bearings!!!! my sytem decks limitation is its well made but small bearing, i can't put any more mass onto the bearing
it is in the circular plinth it made a made a hugh difference!!!!!
i do like the sound of indm's Dual which really took off with a new modern cartridge
I cannot see what is wrong with the original tonearm. Granted, I use low-compliant carts, which aren't very dependent of the tonearm. That is, nothing outside of mass, stiffness and being free from resonance matters. The anti-skating mechanism serves no purpose with low-compliant carts. And since I hate the anti-skating mechanism and your tonearm doesn't seem to have one, I can't imagine it getting much better than that. I would try to tweak everything I could get out of it.
fantasia..and the point is?
I agree, but perhaps you got the feeling that I was being "idler-centric",which is not the case . As you stated, a well implemented tt of whatever typpe generally sound good. After that it can be a matter of "taste", but if the goal is exactly the same and the design parameters and biases are the same, towards the top drawer gear, regardless of the manufacturer, the sounds "should" become similar..
But that's asssuming that all the design criterion are weighted the same as well as all performance criteria and desiner criteria. Hence, we have "flavours" of turntables, arms , cartridges and what not.
I guess I am just trying to encourage some to have fun and experience their systems, and $$$ need not be the only factor. Some of the best systems I have put together are really cheap (Like $40 USD or less) and have performed wonderfully. Some systems I have put together that have costed 150 x's as much seem to be less so.
I agree, but perhaps you got the feeling that I was being "idler-centric",which is not the case . As you stated, a well implemented tt of whatever typpe generally sound good. After that it can be a matter of "taste", but if the goal is exactly the same and the design parameters and biases are the same, towards the top drawer gear, regardless of the manufacturer, the sounds "should" become similar..
But that's asssuming that all the design criterion are weighted the same as well as all performance criteria and desiner criteria. Hence, we have "flavours" of turntables, arms , cartridges and what not.
I guess I am just trying to encourage some to have fun and experience their systems, and $$$ need not be the only factor. Some of the best systems I have put together are really cheap (Like $40 USD or less) and have performed wonderfully. Some systems I have put together that have costed 150 x's as much seem to be less so.
the point is i agreee!!!! nanook
I agree, like you iam looking for bargins and retro is the way to go often TT don't neccisarily have to to expensive neither do cartridges
there are bargins to be had the Garrard i could live with with a different arm what they do with Lencos is amazing!!!!!!!
i would love to hear one Lenco well tweaked or a 100s garrard with a better arm quite a bargin!!!
actually here in Australia we had a belt drive TT in the 1970s and 80 "APAN" i suspect that it was a CEC "OEM" people used to put SME 3009"2s" on them with amazing results
😉
I agree, like you iam looking for bargins and retro is the way to go often TT don't neccisarily have to to expensive neither do cartridges
there are bargins to be had the Garrard i could live with with a different arm what they do with Lencos is amazing!!!!!!!
i would love to hear one Lenco well tweaked or a 100s garrard with a better arm quite a bargin!!!
actually here in Australia we had a belt drive TT in the 1970s and 80 "APAN" i suspect that it was a CEC "OEM" people used to put SME 3009"2s" on them with amazing results
😉
Triumph said:
Hi,
I can't quite follow your drawing, i.e. whether the grease part
is part of the thirust bearing, it appears to be, and then you
ask with the ring ball bearings what is its point ?
Can only guess here than somehow the grease is slowly pulled
onto the main shaft and down to the ring ball bearings, so the
purpose of the larger square section of grease is a reservoir.
🙂/sreten.
New drawing. It is more complicated than I thought. I also discovered an ‘O’-ring. There are different sliders from bronze and plastic and a ball-bearing.
The grease part puzzles me. All together it seems to me a delicate piece of technical design. But still simple and not really high tech, like ceramic balls or in that order.
Wonder how the famous grease bearings from the Garrard 301 and 401 looks like.
The grease part puzzles me. All together it seems to me a delicate piece of technical design. But still simple and not really high tech, like ceramic balls or in that order.
Wonder how the famous grease bearings from the Garrard 301 and 401 looks like.
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