heard Electrostats for the first time

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#21
Borat said:
B&W speakers didn't have that problem even though they also sound dull compared to my little JBL LSR 6325P monitors.

it was difficult to even judge the potential of ESL as a midrange because without the treble it was sort of impossible to judge harmonic content.

so there you have it:

projection - 10/10

effortlessness - 10/10

sound quality - 3/10

it would be really interesting to hear ESL as a midrange in a speaker with properly rendered top end.
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🙄

I wasn't sure what his problem was until he said this: "they also sound dull compared to my little JBL LSR 6325P monitors.":Popworm:

Obviously, another JBL troll..... Not that I hate JBL's - I've owned 250ti's since 1992. But clearly, JBL is not the be all, end all. Anyone who's heard an electrostatic like a Martin Logan Source knows because of the large format design there is a very definite "sweet spot" where high frequencies do not cancel each other - that is a fact of life with most electrostatics. When listening from this location, however, there are very few dynamic speakers that can compare in the ability to resolve musical signals. Their distortion throughout most of the audible range is vanishingly low. Clearly, when he started dissing the Sonus Faber speakers in a similar fashion, it became obvious the post was essentially a pitch for JBL products. Sadly, JBL is barely a shadow of what it once was. What few products it makes these days that compete at the high end of the industry are woefully overpriced. Nice try JBL salesman......next......:headshot:
 
#23
open your mind Borat, JBL now stands for "just blown", if you are in SC, you show NYC. so just what have you heard? and from whom? Mr. salesman, be patient, i have something for you for coming soon, it will rival anything Just blown ever thought about, or engineered, JBL is made in CHINA. what this is and what i am making is made in the USA. except those terinal cups.
 
#24
sorry to punch in on your post, there were a few things that needed attention.
book shelf speakers are in no way an exotic speaker.
andyr, i think put it best. I just do not see why you, Borat, bashes everyone and you no posts, no pics, no nothing. what grade are you in? do you even know anything other than beeing a bully?
You tend to shut up when i catch you doing what you do. Check mine,I bust my ever loving heart out and post Achievements as well as disappiontments, you on the other hand should be banned from this site, you fit the criteria.
BORAT, YOU ARE NO HELP TO ANYONE


If i had the time, i would love to hear a hand built ribbon, used them a time or two myself. the dispersion is so well , if you close your eyes, you cannot put a finger on it.
I know planer a different, i am dealing with a HUGE sweet spot, listened to a set in person, been hooked ever sence.
please keep up the great work, if you could re post some schematics, i have an idea you might be interested in.
 
#25
i am sorry, i cannot leave this alone. These are "custom built" by many of us. not a job hunting idiot. We put our heart in these, thats why they are differnt, you said your self Borat, they sounded well. that is why I question your education. ans i am not talking about speaker design,
the word Troll, keeps ppping up, are you that very little peson thats lives under a bridge? or something smaller? your outlook and options on how YOU see things.
post something with pics and info, you aggrivate me. and i am sure alot of others. So once again, "what have YOU "bortat" done? anything? have you built anything?"borat" have you put together anything"borat"? have you watched the most awful movie in the USA? "borat? thats you. So what have you done on this site?"borat?" have you helped anyone. "borat?" hmmmmmm. servey says NO. i will buy your CHEAP just been blown speakers on ebay for 10 bucks, run them over with a semi and smile all the way.
try that, please, i beg you to please post something worth taking the time to learn from. and BTW, BORAT, if you want to learn, you can still read right? check out my post, you just might learn something.
 
#26
Borat said:
i was at Fry's electronics for the first time a few days ago and was very surprised to see Martin Logan speakers in such a mainstream electronics store.

They actually had several on display but i picked the ones that were slightly bigger ( still too small ) and set up in the mostly open space ( as opposed to those little rooms stuffed with speakers ).

I asked the staff to turn them on and at first they played some sort of a sound that you would hear in the beginning of a movie ( it was a setup with a flat screen TV situated between the speakers ) when they show the movie studio logo.

i was blown away with the "size" of the sound. that's right the SIZE, not loudness. i felt like i was in a movie theater yet there were only 2 speakers in front of me. the sound was everywhere - left, right, top down and behind me.

the smoothness and coherency of the sound was also very impressive.

then they played some jazz type music. i was very impressed with the seamless integration between the electrostatic panel and dynamic woofer. i expected to hear some sort of problems in the crossover but there were none - it was perfect.

i also expected the 8" woofers to sound very limited but they didn't. bass sounded full and satisfying.

and yet i didn't like the speakers. they got just one thing wrong but they REALLY got it wrong. that was the treble. treble sounded about the same as it does on my macbook pro that has a singe fullrange mono 3/4 inch speaker. the speaker seemed to be eating up everything above 6 khz or so.

i rotated the speakers towards me and squatted down so my ear level was middle of the panel but nothing helped. the treble was miserable. it sounded like a compact cassette or FM radio AT BEST. didn't come nowhere close to CD or Vinyl quality.

interestingly enough i had a similar experience listening to Sonus Faber Amati even though it was using a scan-speak ring radiator tweeter that is basically flat to 30 khz. both speakers had the same kind of full, lush bass and seemed to be running MASSIVE house curve to the point that treble was completely gone.

B&W speakers didn't have that problem even though they also sound dull compared to my little JBL LSR 6325P monitors.

it was difficult to even judge the potential of ESL as a midrange because without the treble it was sort of impossible to judge harmonic content.

so there you have it:

projection - 10/10

effortlessness - 10/10

sound quality - 3/10

it would be really interesting to hear ESL as a midrange in a speaker with properly rendered top end.
Click to expand...

Have you ever built anything?
 
#28
10-4
i have learned so much here, from everyone, to have a person so that really has nothing to nice to say, should say nothing at all. that is a personal quote.
this is a very long post and i am still reading it, please do not band me from it, Mav🙂
 
#31
chris661 said:
I heard some electrostatics a little while ago, visiting a local audio fan.

They were good, and when the super tweeter was added, you might call them very good. Even with some tweaking, they (imo) can't fully justify the price tag.
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Typically planar speakers are your thing, or not. If you can hear the box of even the best box speaker and the open full sized scale of a stat get's your juices flowing you really have no choice. Gotta dig into that tight wallet of yours (and mine) and pay the piper.

I run my hybrid stats with a super tweeter and a subwoofer, my system, my choice.
 
#33
mavric said:
what is your amp set up for a way hybrid? if you can ellaborate or take a pic, very interested.
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Golden Tube Audio SE-100 (100 watt) amp. It drives the Aerius much better than the SS Rotel also rated at 100 watts before it. Bass is the biggest improvement, tube bass is awesome, I have no idea what the critics complain about. The high end is better extended too, and of course the midrange just sings.

This is the supertweeter setup, thought I would get more grief from people over it. I guess other some like to try new things too.

Sacrilege, can hear the dog bark - added tweeter - MartinLogan Club (MLC)
 
#34
Recommendation for ESLs

Dear Borat -

I highly recommend that you read Roger Sanders' THE ELECTROSTATIC LOUDSPEAKER DESIGN COOKBOOK. It will be an eye-opener. Mr. Sanders covers everything, from theory, associated electronics (including amplifiers, crossovers and transformers), and construction to set-up and design of transmission line speaker design, including the fact that curved ESLs (like the Martin-Logans) are actually inferior in imaging to flat ESLs.

All your questions will be answered about ESLs and you will learn more than you ever dreamed. Roger Sanders is a genius and this is one of the most comprehensive and well-written books on speakers and electronics I've ever read.

You can obtain Roger Sanders' THE ELECTROSTATIC LOUDSPEAKER DESIGN COOKBOOK at www.audioxpress.com

Check out www.sanderssoundsystems.com

You can even write to Roger; he is very accessible and a real gentleman.

A few years ago, I heard some VERY LARGE Martin-Logan speakers and they were some of the most realistic sounding and pleasant speakers to listen to. The sound was just REAL!

Of dynamic speakers, Legacy Audio's WHISPER speakers are just incredible, the most electrostatic-sounding dynamic speakers I've ever heard.

Good Listening, Speakerman
 
#35
kach22i said:
Golden Tube Audio SE-100 (100 watt) amp. It drives the Aerius much better than the SS Rotel also rated at 100 watts before it. Bass is the biggest improvement, tube bass is awesome, I have no idea what the critics complain about. The high end is better extended too, and of course the midrange just sings.

This is the supertweeter setup, thought I would get more grief from people over it. I guess other some like to try new things too.

Sacrilege, can hear the dog bark - added tweeter - MartinLogan Club (MLC)
Click to expand...
where is a good place to get a tube amp?
 
#36
I heard electrostats for the first time too yesterday (after the woofer foaming) ... mine were the old realistic electrostat 2's.
Yea they have that sharp and light sound. Mine also dont beam too much, maybe cos the 4 panels arranged in a square may be pointing slightly different directions. I also feel they sound too much like the ribbon's I have run in the fisher cabinets. Maybe I should go to beast buy and listen to their esl's ...
Cool.
Srinath.
 
#37
speakerman said:
Dear Borat -
[...] Roger Sanders is a genius [...]
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Well, his designs are for a large part heavily based on those of David Hermeyer (his 'mentor' of sorts).

I remember how in a TAA article on a direct-drive amplifier (which was basically a simplification of Hermeyer's amp), he devoted the entire Introduction section to ridiculing the original design. Not a way to treat one's mentor, if you ask me :fight:

</OT>
 
#38
mavric said:
where is a good place to get a tube amp?
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Well if like me you want someone to call if and when something goes bad, I'd support my local high-end dealer. If they are a good shop they will check out the equipment before they sell it to you so that you don't come back angry, but come back to buy more.

There are several places in my area which take trade-in's, but visiting them all is not always practical. The week-end just goes by to quickly and they are not open on Sundays.

I found my tube stuff on audiogon and noticed the seller was one of my local high-end audio stores. Turns out they like to sell locally but if it does not move quickly they will post it. Purchasing locally means you can often home audition, and that is very important (at least to me).

Here are my suggestions;

1. Find out where your local hi-end stores are and see if they have any pre-owned equipment on their shelves or on their website. I say hi-end because they will give you "service", a lost concept on the big chain boxes.

2. Check out audiogon (started by a guy I used to buy from here in Ann Arbor), look at the dealer demos and then the used stuff online.

3. Keep your eye out, the longer it takes the more fun, right?

Good luck.

EDIT: If you are worried about getting a good deal, just remember that pair of pants or suit you got a "good deal" on. Do you wear it often? Does it fit you right? Hit or miss, if you want a hit, pay the price and eliminate risk. The real risk in my opinion is ending up with something that does not fit right.
 
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#39
kach22i,it so good to see some one from my local area. I'm from chelsea originaly and now reside in grasslake area, not far at all from you.
Have you messed with diy esl's before?maybe if your intrested we can get together sometime.
I can show some of my current audio stuff.
I had listened to some martian logens just before i finished the panels i am rebuilding now. jer
 
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