i was at Fry's electronics for the first time a few days ago and was very surprised to see Martin Logan speakers in such a mainstream electronics store.
They actually had several on display but i picked the ones that were slightly bigger ( still too small ) and set up in the mostly open space ( as opposed to those little rooms stuffed with speakers ).
I asked the staff to turn them on and at first they played some sort of a sound that you would hear in the beginning of a movie ( it was a setup with a flat screen TV situated between the speakers ) when they show the movie studio logo.
i was blown away with the "size" of the sound. that's right the SIZE, not loudness. i felt like i was in a movie theater yet there were only 2 speakers in front of me. the sound was everywhere - left, right, top down and behind me.
the smoothness and coherency of the sound was also very impressive.
then they played some jazz type music. i was very impressed with the seamless integration between the electrostatic panel and dynamic woofer. i expected to hear some sort of problems in the crossover but there were none - it was perfect.
i also expected the 8" woofers to sound very limited but they didn't. bass sounded full and satisfying.
and yet i didn't like the speakers. they got just one thing wrong but they REALLY got it wrong. that was the treble. treble sounded about the same as it does on my macbook pro that has a singe fullrange mono 3/4 inch speaker. the speaker seemed to be eating up everything above 6 khz or so.
i rotated the speakers towards me and squatted down so my ear level was middle of the panel but nothing helped. the treble was miserable. it sounded like a compact cassette or FM radio AT BEST. didn't come nowhere close to CD or Vinyl quality.
interestingly enough i had a similar experience listening to Sonus Faber Amati even though it was using a scan-speak ring radiator tweeter that is basically flat to 30 khz. both speakers had the same kind of full, lush bass and seemed to be running MASSIVE house curve to the point that treble was completely gone.
B&W speakers didn't have that problem even though they also sound dull compared to my little JBL LSR 6325P monitors.
it was difficult to even judge the potential of ESL as a midrange because without the treble it was sort of impossible to judge harmonic content.
so there you have it:
projection - 10/10
effortlessness - 10/10
sound quality - 3/10
it would be really interesting to hear ESL as a midrange in a speaker with properly rendered top end.
They actually had several on display but i picked the ones that were slightly bigger ( still too small ) and set up in the mostly open space ( as opposed to those little rooms stuffed with speakers ).
I asked the staff to turn them on and at first they played some sort of a sound that you would hear in the beginning of a movie ( it was a setup with a flat screen TV situated between the speakers ) when they show the movie studio logo.
i was blown away with the "size" of the sound. that's right the SIZE, not loudness. i felt like i was in a movie theater yet there were only 2 speakers in front of me. the sound was everywhere - left, right, top down and behind me.
the smoothness and coherency of the sound was also very impressive.
then they played some jazz type music. i was very impressed with the seamless integration between the electrostatic panel and dynamic woofer. i expected to hear some sort of problems in the crossover but there were none - it was perfect.
i also expected the 8" woofers to sound very limited but they didn't. bass sounded full and satisfying.
and yet i didn't like the speakers. they got just one thing wrong but they REALLY got it wrong. that was the treble. treble sounded about the same as it does on my macbook pro that has a singe fullrange mono 3/4 inch speaker. the speaker seemed to be eating up everything above 6 khz or so.
i rotated the speakers towards me and squatted down so my ear level was middle of the panel but nothing helped. the treble was miserable. it sounded like a compact cassette or FM radio AT BEST. didn't come nowhere close to CD or Vinyl quality.
interestingly enough i had a similar experience listening to Sonus Faber Amati even though it was using a scan-speak ring radiator tweeter that is basically flat to 30 khz. both speakers had the same kind of full, lush bass and seemed to be running MASSIVE house curve to the point that treble was completely gone.
B&W speakers didn't have that problem even though they also sound dull compared to my little JBL LSR 6325P monitors.
it was difficult to even judge the potential of ESL as a midrange because without the treble it was sort of impossible to judge harmonic content.
so there you have it:
projection - 10/10
effortlessness - 10/10
sound quality - 3/10
it would be really interesting to hear ESL as a midrange in a speaker with properly rendered top end.
Is it possible that the high frequencies just sound different on ESL. Once in a while I switch back to listen to my AR 2 ways speakers, and I find that the high frequencies on my ESL is just different. All the sounds can be heard, but they do not sound the same. I'm not sure which one is more real. However, listening to ESL is more relaxing.
Wachara C.
Wachara C.
Also not a big fan of Martin Logans but what are the chances the sources, amplifiers and setup at Fry's can do them any justice? Don't rush to conclusions.
Hi,
thats the old story of ESL presentations at hifi shops.
- The ESL are put to AC just 5 minutes prior ro listening
- The ESL are not burned in, just put out of the shipping container into the presentation room (For ML speakers deadly, since they require at least 6 months burn in time !!)
- Low budget electronics. To drive the ESL capacity impedance requires a strong and perfect power supply of the amp.
In most sessions i listened, at leat one of this major mistakes was present.
Capaciti
thats the old story of ESL presentations at hifi shops.
- The ESL are put to AC just 5 minutes prior ro listening
- The ESL are not burned in, just put out of the shipping container into the presentation room (For ML speakers deadly, since they require at least 6 months burn in time !!)
- Low budget electronics. To drive the ESL capacity impedance requires a strong and perfect power supply of the amp.
In most sessions i listened, at leat one of this major mistakes was present.
Capaciti
I was at Fry's in Sunnyvale on Tue and saw a pair of ML Vantages sitting just by the entrance to the big screen TVs. But I didn't bother listening, as it's usually a big disappointment in most shops even when they try. And Fry's is just pathetic....
Borat: PM me if you want to hear a pair of ML SL3. Hopefully these can earn a SQ rating above 5. (Treble and ESLs is a strange subject that I'm not even going to try to write about, except to say: If it's in the recording/equipment, they will play it!)
Borat: PM me if you want to hear a pair of ML SL3. Hopefully these can earn a SQ rating above 5. (Treble and ESLs is a strange subject that I'm not even going to try to write about, except to say: If it's in the recording/equipment, they will play it!)
Hi Borat
I am unsure as to what type of store Fry's is, but if it is what I am thinking, its the last type of store that I would use to evaluate a speaker.
Traditionaly, electroststics are known as one of the finest speakers for treble performance, but they come at a cost.
They are very critical to room placement and position. As statics are bipolars, they radiate equally from the front and the back. Inappropriate placement can result in phase cancellation, with a reduction in treble, and other side effects.
I purchased ML electroststics not to long ago, and when I got them home, I was very dissapointed, and wanted to get my money back.
However, after much experimentation and frustration with room placement, I finaly got them right, and now they sound absolutely gorgeous.
They replaced my old B&W 801's (the non-matrix ones).
The mid and upper frequencies is where statics shine.
The point that I am trying to make, is that statics are not the type of speakers that you can just pull out of a box, and are ready to go.
I suspect that Fry's just plonked them wherever they had room.
Regards,
George.
Fry's is a Northern California electronics chain - sort of the supermarket of electronics, everything from cellphones to computers to TVs to cameras to stereo to a hit and miss collection of components to washing machines and refrigerators to lava lamps and radio control toys.
They have lots of ESL speakers - not Martin Logan ESLs, that's ESL as in "English as a Second Language" speakers, i.e. the sales staff, who are poorly paid and pathetic in their knowledge of what they are trying to sell. They try to make up for their ignorance by saying everything with complete conviction, no matter that they are generally wrong. I hate the place, the only redeeming feature is they have pre-sensitized pcb material for my various projects.
I haven't seen the Martin Logan setup but it's a good bet that your suspicions are correct.
So anyway i spent about an hour listening to Tosh's MLs.
The sound was very different from FRY's indeed.
Whereas FRY's setup had no treble at all Tosh's setup has so much heights that i was seriously concerned about damaging my ears. The MLs made metal sound as metallic as my titanium tweeters do ... only louder and more dynamic.
once i sorted out my question about the heights and moved on to listening to the rest of the speaker i was again surprised by what i was hearing.
i expected to hear less coloration than i am used to and that indeed was the case. however apparently what i didn't realize is that much of what i was used to listening to was in fact just that - coloration. without it music didn't sound the way i expected it at all. psychologically instead of feeling of depth that i was expecting i had experienced a feeling of emptiness.
i started switching through different tracks in attempt to find something that didn't make MLs sound like a surgical robot made by aliens ... and failed.
then i decided to run some of my alien outer-space music on them instead. the result was FANTASTISCH as Bruno would say. holographic.
my conclusion: the best speakers for dropping some LSD and freaking out listening to messed up psychedelic trance.
not the kind of speakers i would want to play romantic music on in candle light.
these speakers sound scary - not in a good or a bad way - but literally.
overall i was impressed.
The sound was very different from FRY's indeed.
Whereas FRY's setup had no treble at all Tosh's setup has so much heights that i was seriously concerned about damaging my ears. The MLs made metal sound as metallic as my titanium tweeters do ... only louder and more dynamic.
once i sorted out my question about the heights and moved on to listening to the rest of the speaker i was again surprised by what i was hearing.
i expected to hear less coloration than i am used to and that indeed was the case. however apparently what i didn't realize is that much of what i was used to listening to was in fact just that - coloration. without it music didn't sound the way i expected it at all. psychologically instead of feeling of depth that i was expecting i had experienced a feeling of emptiness.
i started switching through different tracks in attempt to find something that didn't make MLs sound like a surgical robot made by aliens ... and failed.
then i decided to run some of my alien outer-space music on them instead. the result was FANTASTISCH as Bruno would say. holographic.
my conclusion: the best speakers for dropping some LSD and freaking out listening to messed up psychedelic trance.
not the kind of speakers i would want to play romantic music on in candle light.
these speakers sound scary - not in a good or a bad way - but literally.
overall i was impressed.
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Hi,
ESLs well done are extremely sensitive to their surrounding.
You experienced that phenomen Borat. One has to get used to electrostatic sound, because the ease and naturality that is possible is so different to the muddled sound of most dynamic speakers. If You just knew the sound of dynamic speakers an ESL certainly sounds different und unusual. The amount of detail, low level resolution and the revealing nature of the sound makes it harder to find really capable electronics. Listening to dynamic speakers is much more relaxing, because they are restricted and hide so much information. Listen to a voice, listen to a bow drawn over a string, listen to a Snare drum, listen to piano!
But this sensitivity is a con when room and electronics don´t fit the speaker. ESLs are typically a more difficult load to amplifiers and if the amp is overly stressed it doesn´t sound well at all. Many amps with global feedback really sound the way You described, artificial, metallic, stressed. Dynamic speakers might not reveal this flaw of the amp at all. That makes things easier. But when You have listened to a good ESL setup, You immediately recognize the sound as right, natural, lifelike and You probabely never want to change back to other speakers.
jauu
Calvin
ESLs well done are extremely sensitive to their surrounding.
You experienced that phenomen Borat. One has to get used to electrostatic sound, because the ease and naturality that is possible is so different to the muddled sound of most dynamic speakers. If You just knew the sound of dynamic speakers an ESL certainly sounds different und unusual. The amount of detail, low level resolution and the revealing nature of the sound makes it harder to find really capable electronics. Listening to dynamic speakers is much more relaxing, because they are restricted and hide so much information. Listen to a voice, listen to a bow drawn over a string, listen to a Snare drum, listen to piano!
But this sensitivity is a con when room and electronics don´t fit the speaker. ESLs are typically a more difficult load to amplifiers and if the amp is overly stressed it doesn´t sound well at all. Many amps with global feedback really sound the way You described, artificial, metallic, stressed. Dynamic speakers might not reveal this flaw of the amp at all. That makes things easier. But when You have listened to a good ESL setup, You immediately recognize the sound as right, natural, lifelike and You probabely never want to change back to other speakers.
jauu
Calvin
Hi Borat,
Since you're widening your speaker experience to statics ... can I suggest you take it upon yourself to listen to some big Maggies - like 3.6s?
Different construction & presentation ... but similar sound. 3.6s have planar bass (ie. they're not a hybrid, using a cone) and the ribbon is just as delicate as a stat. You might not like the mid-range as much, though. 🙂
Once you start to listen to dipole planars, BTW - stats or Maggies - you realise how much conventional "monkey coffins" just don't cut it! 😀
Regards,
Andy
Since you're widening your speaker experience to statics ... can I suggest you take it upon yourself to listen to some big Maggies - like 3.6s?
Different construction & presentation ... but similar sound. 3.6s have planar bass (ie. they're not a hybrid, using a cone) and the ribbon is just as delicate as a stat. You might not like the mid-range as much, though. 🙂
Once you start to listen to dipole planars, BTW - stats or Maggies - you realise how much conventional "monkey coffins" just don't cut it! 😀
Regards,
Andy
i didn't say it sounded stressed.
i think the problem was combination of my expectation and the way recordings are produced.
i listen on nearfield studio monitors myself so i get more or less the same sound as people hear in the studio when they produce stuff.
after all distortion is deliberately added to records to make them sound more full and rich. most instruments are nothing but distortion generators. the amount of distortion that will go on a record probably depends on what the engineers hear in their studio on their dynamic speakers ( or dynamic headphones ).
then when you play it on ESL it sounds like they didn't put in enough.
you would think that black emptiness between the sounds would be desirable but i think it also makes music sound somewhat disjointed or disorienting.
i think music would simply have to be produced differently to sound optimally on ESLs.
with imaging also ( although that is obviously room dependent ) it seems too much. it jumps from dead center in front of you to virtual surround.
again this shows relatively much greater potential than dynamic speakers but music would have to be produced specifically for ESLs to image right on them.
i guess i just don't like when speakers disappear. i guess i don't want to feel like i am there. i want to feel like i am here and the speakers are here and they play music. i feel more comfortable that way.
for movies or video games though i think ESLs should be awesome.
i have no doubt that i would get used to the peculiarity if i put ESLs in my room but then i don't know if my guests would be able to get past the "what is going on?" feeling and just enjoy music.
reminds me of when i was building an active 5-way system for my car. it was just too much realism. whenever somebody would put a siren on the track i would be like " !@#$ ! ! ! " and have cold sweat all over me before i realized i wasn't really getting arrested for drunk driving or speeding or whatever. in a car you want to be able to tell the sounds which are real from the ones coming out of your speakers. with the volume turned up it was simply difficult and unpleasant to drive.
who ever said that it is pleasant when your room disappears and you find yourself tumbling somewhere around one of Jupiter's moons ? it's not as bad at home as behind the wheel but i don't think this is desired for 90% of music listening.
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that is on the agenda of course. if you know where i could listen to them in North California don't keep it a secret.
Hi Borat,
As you can see from the flag against my moniker - I'm in Oz. So I have absolutely no idea where you can go to listen to Maggies in N Cal. 🙂
Can I suggest you need to post on "Planar Asylum" saying you'd like to listen to some 3-way Maggies (these have the true ribbon ... as against the smaller Maggies which have a "psuedo ribbon") and would folk post the names of HiFi dealers in N Cal - or, indeed, offer themselves up for an audition. I do know there's a guy called "Al Sekela" who has the top-model Maggies and who lives near the Napa Valley ... is that north enough for you?
Good luck,
Andy
PS: I am driven to tap my foot, nod my head etc., when I'm listening to my Maggies ... so I certainly don't think there's anything "thin"/"weird" about my speakers! Nor does anyone who's ever come and listened. 🙂)
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I think that is it.
If the amp is not up to snuff the top frequencies may get cut off because of the current load being sucked up.
I heard some of the better Martin Logans a year ago down in a high end audio/video store in Baton Rouge Louisiana. They were using all McIntosh Tube equipment on them, including a tube cd player, preamp and a pair of monoblock amps. They sounded great, definitely none of the high frequency deficiencies described earlier. They projected an amazingly large and dynamic soundstage from relatively small speakers. I would recommend that before passing judgment on them, give them a good listen with decent equipment powering them first.
Borat, are you suggesting that the music you listened through ESLs was recorded flawlessly and that there is a problem in the speakers ?
I think it`s vice versa, interesting reading:
The Pleasurize Music Foundation invites music listeners, artists, and music enterprises of all areas of our industry to become Active Members in order to create a basis for vibrant and natural sounding music:
DYNAMIC RANGE | pleasurize music!
Our Aim | DYNAMIC RANGE | pleasurize music!
http://www.pleasurizemusic.com/sites/default/files/Studio Magazin E 1-2009.pdf
"We are not surprised by the fact that music listeners are losing the willingness to legally acquire music, because of the fact that contemporary releases are mercilessly over-compressed* – a situation that turns off even the biggest music fans. For example, no natural dynamic can be heard in recent CD releases from groups such as the Red Hot Chili Peppers (for example: Stadium Arcadium). The masterful drum performance by the drummer in the band Garbage (Bleed Like Me) is totally distorted. Madonna's Hard Candy generates aggression and leads to distortion when played on disco sound systems. With Metallica (Death Magnetic), the level meter needle permanently sits in the red range!
The same applies to the so-called quality criteria of surround sound recordings. Nine out of ten surround releases sound worse that the original stereo mixes or are cheap up-mixes with surround simulation – this is no way to entice music listeners to move to a new high-resolution format based on Blu-ray technology.
(* here we speak about dynamic compression and NOT data compression! Please be aware about the difference)
It has been already proofed by academic reseaches that there is no correlation between loudness and sales. There is a proven tendency that compression is limiting commercial success. The idea of over-compressed music leading to sales is only a widespread myth. The truth is: loud sells less."
The Death of High Fidelity:
The Death of High Fidelity : Rolling Stone
Article: Are Audiophiles Music Lovers?
"...as a group, audiophiles spend 100 hours reading about tone, cones, speaker cables, and audio miscellany for every hour spent in the company of a flesh-and-blood orchestra, chamber ensemble, jazz trio, or blues group."
Honor Roll of Dynamic Recordings:
Honor Roll
"Most audiophiles, I was to learn, don't "do" concerts. It's part of the religion, but not part of the life."
I think it`s vice versa, interesting reading:
The Pleasurize Music Foundation invites music listeners, artists, and music enterprises of all areas of our industry to become Active Members in order to create a basis for vibrant and natural sounding music:
DYNAMIC RANGE | pleasurize music!
Our Aim | DYNAMIC RANGE | pleasurize music!
http://www.pleasurizemusic.com/sites/default/files/Studio Magazin E 1-2009.pdf
"We are not surprised by the fact that music listeners are losing the willingness to legally acquire music, because of the fact that contemporary releases are mercilessly over-compressed* – a situation that turns off even the biggest music fans. For example, no natural dynamic can be heard in recent CD releases from groups such as the Red Hot Chili Peppers (for example: Stadium Arcadium). The masterful drum performance by the drummer in the band Garbage (Bleed Like Me) is totally distorted. Madonna's Hard Candy generates aggression and leads to distortion when played on disco sound systems. With Metallica (Death Magnetic), the level meter needle permanently sits in the red range!
The same applies to the so-called quality criteria of surround sound recordings. Nine out of ten surround releases sound worse that the original stereo mixes or are cheap up-mixes with surround simulation – this is no way to entice music listeners to move to a new high-resolution format based on Blu-ray technology.
(* here we speak about dynamic compression and NOT data compression! Please be aware about the difference)
It has been already proofed by academic reseaches that there is no correlation between loudness and sales. There is a proven tendency that compression is limiting commercial success. The idea of over-compressed music leading to sales is only a widespread myth. The truth is: loud sells less."
The Death of High Fidelity:
The Death of High Fidelity : Rolling Stone
Article: Are Audiophiles Music Lovers?
"...as a group, audiophiles spend 100 hours reading about tone, cones, speaker cables, and audio miscellany for every hour spent in the company of a flesh-and-blood orchestra, chamber ensemble, jazz trio, or blues group."
Honor Roll of Dynamic Recordings:
Honor Roll
"Most audiophiles, I was to learn, don't "do" concerts. It's part of the religion, but not part of the life."
Hey string 🙂
Now they just need to show how excessive compression leads to software piracy 🙂
i will agree on one thing with you though - speed limits definitely do lead to traffic violations.
Now they just need to show how excessive compression leads to software piracy 🙂
i will agree on one thing with you though - speed limits definitely do lead to traffic violations.
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