Has anyone actually measured any two-way car audio 6x9s? I.e. Thiel small parameters or in car response? It seems like there is still a dearth of information on this category of audio stuff. I looked in a car audio forum but couldn't find anyone measuring anything.
I just bought a new stripped Subaru Outback and the stock speakers are low rent 6 inch paper cones set into a 6x9 opening. No tweeters, not even a wizzer cone. I haven't taken measurements but the bass sounds both thin and boomy and there's some harshness, probably due to breakup.
I'm tempted to replace these with some off the shelf 6x9s, but I'm worried I will be trading one turd for another. I could just roll my own system, but I don't have the time for that due to small kids/work. I'm thinking something made by Harman with that has both an inductor and a cap for the tweeter is a good bet, but I am still hesitant to take the time to install an unknown.
I just bought a new stripped Subaru Outback and the stock speakers are low rent 6 inch paper cones set into a 6x9 opening. No tweeters, not even a wizzer cone. I haven't taken measurements but the bass sounds both thin and boomy and there's some harshness, probably due to breakup.
I'm tempted to replace these with some off the shelf 6x9s, but I'm worried I will be trading one turd for another. I could just roll my own system, but I don't have the time for that due to small kids/work. I'm thinking something made by Harman with that has both an inductor and a cap for the tweeter is a good bet, but I am still hesitant to take the time to install an unknown.
I replaced some stocks with these and they sound quite decent, efficient so no extra amp needed……https://www.crutchfield.com/S-byroo...H1OK5mdBH8JhHNqgoFTv42rbX5T9F2T0aAkGhEALw_wcB
Go to the Crutchfield website and they have it all set up to give you compatible speakers. The specs should be on the individual pages as well.
But car audio is full of nonsense about watts, specs, and front ends. It should be easy but it's not. Forget about everything you know about audio when you look into this as it is all about the boom-boom sound. And don't spend too much. Almost anything is better than the OEM crap that is put into cars by the manufacturers.
But car audio is full of nonsense about watts, specs, and front ends. It should be easy but it's not. Forget about everything you know about audio when you look into this as it is all about the boom-boom sound. And don't spend too much. Almost anything is better than the OEM crap that is put into cars by the manufacturers.
Auditor by Focal, acx 690 offers a technical datasheet with FR and Impedance. It is a 3 way though.
Mountain bob, thanks. As I said earlier, if I am buying blind I would lean toward a Harman product that has an inductor in the crossover. The Infinitys you mentioned are Harman, but I don't see an inductor.
Lojzek, thanks. I looked up the Focal and the response doesn't look great. Of course, once mounted in the car it may be a different story. The lack of inductor probably explains resonance around 2khz. QTS and FS look good, If I were designing my own system I might start with a QTS of 0,7 or a bit less. The ACX 165 6.5", which is the size for my rear door, looks better, being flattish 30 degrees off axis.
Zacster, thanks. The car takes 6x9s in the front and 6.5s in the rear, metra makes a special subaru/toyota adapter for both, image attached. I am aware the specs are generally garbage, especially on spl. I like to calculate reference efficiency from Qes, fs and VAS, this tends to give a better efficiency estimate, although mfgrs tend to be optimistic on Q and FS as well.
I also found one Visaton FX16 which has FR included on the spec sheet. Again, no inductor and what looks like a big fat cone breakup resonance at 4khz. This one also has an undesirably high Fs of 105 hz, and probably a QTS in the vicinity of 1.3. So that's a hard pass.
Lastly, I have found the discontinued-but-still-available JBL GTO series. These have inductors on the crossover (at least I see one on the 6x9) and JBL publishes the TS parameters in the user manual, which look reasonable (see attached). There is no frequency response data, but Harman is competent, and hopefully they applied some of their expertise here. I also found the GX series has an inductor, but no TS data. At the moment I am leaning towards getting a pair of GTO939s and a pair of GTO629s.
Lojzek, thanks. I looked up the Focal and the response doesn't look great. Of course, once mounted in the car it may be a different story. The lack of inductor probably explains resonance around 2khz. QTS and FS look good, If I were designing my own system I might start with a QTS of 0,7 or a bit less. The ACX 165 6.5", which is the size for my rear door, looks better, being flattish 30 degrees off axis.
Zacster, thanks. The car takes 6x9s in the front and 6.5s in the rear, metra makes a special subaru/toyota adapter for both, image attached. I am aware the specs are generally garbage, especially on spl. I like to calculate reference efficiency from Qes, fs and VAS, this tends to give a better efficiency estimate, although mfgrs tend to be optimistic on Q and FS as well.
I also found one Visaton FX16 which has FR included on the spec sheet. Again, no inductor and what looks like a big fat cone breakup resonance at 4khz. This one also has an undesirably high Fs of 105 hz, and probably a QTS in the vicinity of 1.3. So that's a hard pass.
Lastly, I have found the discontinued-but-still-available JBL GTO series. These have inductors on the crossover (at least I see one on the 6x9) and JBL publishes the TS parameters in the user manual, which look reasonable (see attached). There is no frequency response data, but Harman is competent, and hopefully they applied some of their expertise here. I also found the GX series has an inductor, but no TS data. At the moment I am leaning towards getting a pair of GTO939s and a pair of GTO629s.
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The GTO series was good stuff (at least their subs were) but we’re talking 15yrs ago when I had them, what was the last date of manufacture? They can still be bought new on amazon looks like $100 for the 939, no matter what you get I wouldn‘t expect miracles out of the stock head unit unless it came with some sort of higher end audio system stock. 😎
Many years since I installed any 6x9's and only a few have ever been built with a proper light weight and stiff enough cone to not have terrible distortion. Image Dynamics back in the Eric Stevens era, none others I can recall though it seems one or two others. As for what is available today, be careful what you choose or save time, likely quite a bit of money, etc and put in some well known home audio drivers in round 6.5 or 7". Look at the SD, excursion, QTS, etc, you can get really good midbass out of those sizes. Car audio drivers nearly always cost a great deal more for the same or less quality than available in home audio units.
Rick
Rick
The wayback machine shows the last capture for the GTO629 on December 2019. The newer speakers, Eg stadium, are $$$ and the TS parameters don't look as good with higher Fs/Q. So maybe it's 4 year old stock on amazon - no big deal. Only possible issue is the tweeters stick out and may hit the grill.
It's the base model. Upper trim levels have a harman sound system with sub, which I wouldn't bother modifying. I'm guessing the stereo is something like 20w x 4, which is fine. The treble is really hot, I'm hoping that's just a giant resonance and not eq in the head unit.
It's the base model. Upper trim levels have a harman sound system with sub, which I wouldn't bother modifying. I'm guessing the stereo is something like 20w x 4, which is fine. The treble is really hot, I'm hoping that's just a giant resonance and not eq in the head unit.
I will probably still use the 6x9s if only for the lower Q and lower Fs. Also, just because the distortion is high doesn't mean it's offensive or even audible.
Good quality home audio drivers tend to have a Qts of <0.5 which will probably translate to thin bass in this application. Ok if you're running a sub, but I am not. Additionally, the requirement for 4ohms further narrows the selection. I did a bit of digging on parts express and the most suitable home audio speaker was a Goldwood GW-S650/4, which is a passable speaker (if the specs are accurate) from a marginal brand.
Gone are the days of decent sounding 6x9s. The last ones I bought were Alpine Type Rs which had a proper outboard xover. Everything I see now has tiny electrolytics in the HP and miniscule cored LP inductor. I'd always use a 6.5" to 6x9 adapter and run 6.5" separates.
Here are some nice reasonably priced separates that sound better than most under $300
Here are some nice reasonably priced separates that sound better than most under $300
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With a little bit of trimming the metal on the door, and stiffening the whole area as well as proper sound deadening you might want to look into an 8" driver if you cannot find a decent 6x9 for a good price. If you want to know more about automotive sound deadening just ask, I have more experience than most so know more than most, still more I can learn of course🙂
Bottom line, any decent speaker will be hugely improved by sound deadening.
Bottom line, any decent speaker will be hugely improved by sound deadening.
Also let us know where the tweeters are placed, most auto manf had no clue on how to do it right, even if they have some brand they work with, especially Bloz. Incredibly what one can achieve with just a few simple but effective install tips.
(A bit under the influence at the moment but I mean what I say, even if a bit muddled right now🙂
Rick
(A bit under the influence at the moment but I mean what I say, even if a bit muddled right now🙂
Rick
Well in response to the thread question, I used to design this stuff, so YES. Most 6x9s are really just two-way, with a turd, er, third "tweeter" that just spits a little bit on top. A coworker once made a prototype for Alfa Romeo which sounded amazing, like a sub for bass, however they got rejected as crazy expensive. The Alpine "Juba" with the horn in the middle was interesting, some nice qualities, though low in bass. Pretty much every coax I ever measured of whatever size had the same problem: with just a capacitor for a crossover, the upper midrange would go in/out/in phase between woofer and tweeter. A 2nd order crossover really helped this but NOT if the inductor was a cheap piece of crap.
Your post this raises a number of questions:
- What year and trim line is your Outback?
- Are you talking about the rear speakers? Assuming so, forget that nonsense. Nobody does duplicated rear stereo at home, those speakers are a historical leftover from the days of 3.2W tube amps in the dashboard. Put a good component set up front, subwoofer in the back, voilà the fader is now a bass level control. I like a passive subwoofer connected via a long speaker cable to an amp under a seat or whatever, so I can move the sub around as I like (since you have a wagon).
Not my area but in general I would use and adapter and fit one of the killer 6" or maybe 6.5" real speakers available from the good usual suspects: Faital Pro, etc.
Given that metal cutting is being considered, I would cut a round smallish hole by it and fit a good tweeter there, don´t feel cornered by the idea "I have a 6x9" hole, so I need a coaxial"
Given that metal cutting is being considered, I would cut a round smallish hole by it and fit a good tweeter there, don´t feel cornered by the idea "I have a 6x9" hole, so I need a coaxial"
head-unit is exactly right, stereo up front, sub in the back, properly installed, all the car audio one needs and does not have to cost much to be very good.
This is not an ego based post, experienced based and love helping others acheive their goals and nearly always surpase them by a huge margin and yet not spend much money. I have won car audio comps with a $25k system and an $800 one which I much preferred for the incredible value, now it would be a bit more money but when counting inflation, about the same.
I am not an engineer nor designer of speakers, just got lucky enough to meet some of the best and paid attention but more about how to use them, not design them. I also did my first car audio install when I was 16, Motorola 8 track and Sparkomatic 6x9's, my first DIY home system speakers a could of years before that, I am 70.5 now.
I spent some time in car audio competition including becoming a judge on many all time great systems, built a couple of them as well and can do things in a vehicle that are nearly impossible in a home environment without far more time invested, and usually money.
C5 and C6 Vettes, not sure about the C7 or C8, had 10" absolutely junk Bloz in the doors which were very poorly stiffened, also horrid little full range about them at a sort of decent location. I used Alumalite, aluminum channels, Ensolite foam and the least amount of my damping material as possible to stiffen up the doors, seal the off, etc. 6.5" midbass, 1" tweeters. Two 2 channel mini Arc Audio amps under the passenger footwell, single 10" sub in rear corner, decent HU, damping mat on rear wall behind seats and much of the rear cargo area, all lined with Ensolite, double on the tunnel over the drivertrain as lots of heat there. After pulling the Bloz system out and putting in the trash, total weight gain was 45lbs and a dang good system for under $2k DIY. I sold quite a few systems, installed one or two of those, well under half the price of competitors and far better sounding and much less weight. I was a restricted dealer for Arc Audio, Image Dynamics and a couple of others as well as wholesale accounts from various suppliers. This was a sideline from my regular and growing business so I had to give it up eventually, I only did it because after building my own C6 system then seeing the junk being sold to other Vette owners I wanted to give them a better option. Eventually I gave away the plans, templates, subwoofer enclosure mold, etc.
OK, I guess drifting a bit off topic, really just to make a point, not the only one but I have a lifetime of experience in many things and some more than others, more than enough to make a solid statement or two about car audio install.
.....main point, 6x9 just not needed, only one I used was a few installs where they fit, Image Dynamics, to mate with ID horns, which my V6 eventually had, take your head off loud if wanted but that horn sound I love at more modest levels. I have done a few dual 6.5 or 7's with lots of power, three way, mids and tweeters in the kicks, not in a Vette though.
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Tweeters, very easy way to install them for superb results. Mount them into the A pillars, 2" above highest point of the dash and aiming exactly at each other though a slight tilt forward and or up, no more than 10 degrees, can work quite well. This is when the midbass units are in the doors or kick panels.
Mark the spot on the pillar trim, carefully cut a whole with a tight fit, wrap with grill cloth if you wish, push through from rear, adjust cloth if used, glue in place checking the aim before curing happens.
Wire them out of phase with the midbass drivers, almost always much better results always in my installs, never heard one done otherwise.
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A small full range or mid and tweeter can be aimed and or placed quite differently but still it takes serious effort to get them just right, and look good.
I prefer midbass and tweeters in the kick panels that are vented in the rear into the lower A pillars if the design of the vehicle allows for them to be aimed properly which means no huge console.
I have a very good guide on proper kick panel alignment if anybody wants to know, I learned it from a master as nearly everything I know about anything, met many, blessed to have done so🙂
Rick
This is not an ego based post, experienced based and love helping others acheive their goals and nearly always surpase them by a huge margin and yet not spend much money. I have won car audio comps with a $25k system and an $800 one which I much preferred for the incredible value, now it would be a bit more money but when counting inflation, about the same.
I am not an engineer nor designer of speakers, just got lucky enough to meet some of the best and paid attention but more about how to use them, not design them. I also did my first car audio install when I was 16, Motorola 8 track and Sparkomatic 6x9's, my first DIY home system speakers a could of years before that, I am 70.5 now.
I spent some time in car audio competition including becoming a judge on many all time great systems, built a couple of them as well and can do things in a vehicle that are nearly impossible in a home environment without far more time invested, and usually money.
C5 and C6 Vettes, not sure about the C7 or C8, had 10" absolutely junk Bloz in the doors which were very poorly stiffened, also horrid little full range about them at a sort of decent location. I used Alumalite, aluminum channels, Ensolite foam and the least amount of my damping material as possible to stiffen up the doors, seal the off, etc. 6.5" midbass, 1" tweeters. Two 2 channel mini Arc Audio amps under the passenger footwell, single 10" sub in rear corner, decent HU, damping mat on rear wall behind seats and much of the rear cargo area, all lined with Ensolite, double on the tunnel over the drivertrain as lots of heat there. After pulling the Bloz system out and putting in the trash, total weight gain was 45lbs and a dang good system for under $2k DIY. I sold quite a few systems, installed one or two of those, well under half the price of competitors and far better sounding and much less weight. I was a restricted dealer for Arc Audio, Image Dynamics and a couple of others as well as wholesale accounts from various suppliers. This was a sideline from my regular and growing business so I had to give it up eventually, I only did it because after building my own C6 system then seeing the junk being sold to other Vette owners I wanted to give them a better option. Eventually I gave away the plans, templates, subwoofer enclosure mold, etc.
OK, I guess drifting a bit off topic, really just to make a point, not the only one but I have a lifetime of experience in many things and some more than others, more than enough to make a solid statement or two about car audio install.
.....main point, 6x9 just not needed, only one I used was a few installs where they fit, Image Dynamics, to mate with ID horns, which my V6 eventually had, take your head off loud if wanted but that horn sound I love at more modest levels. I have done a few dual 6.5 or 7's with lots of power, three way, mids and tweeters in the kicks, not in a Vette though.
--------
Tweeters, very easy way to install them for superb results. Mount them into the A pillars, 2" above highest point of the dash and aiming exactly at each other though a slight tilt forward and or up, no more than 10 degrees, can work quite well. This is when the midbass units are in the doors or kick panels.
Mark the spot on the pillar trim, carefully cut a whole with a tight fit, wrap with grill cloth if you wish, push through from rear, adjust cloth if used, glue in place checking the aim before curing happens.
Wire them out of phase with the midbass drivers, almost always much better results always in my installs, never heard one done otherwise.
---------
A small full range or mid and tweeter can be aimed and or placed quite differently but still it takes serious effort to get them just right, and look good.
I prefer midbass and tweeters in the kick panels that are vented in the rear into the lower A pillars if the design of the vehicle allows for them to be aimed properly which means no huge console.
I have a very good guide on proper kick panel alignment if anybody wants to know, I learned it from a master as nearly everything I know about anything, met many, blessed to have done so🙂
Rick
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Idea: It might be feasible to used dual 5.25" drivers, not sure if combined SD and excursion of anything smaller will have enough output.
I would absolutely advise putting in some decent tweeters in A pillars or if the doors have a high mounted tweeter stock use that area or in the dash, both can be quite decent, not usually the same as the great A pillar mount.
I would absolutely advise putting in some decent tweeters in A pillars or if the doors have a high mounted tweeter stock use that area or in the dash, both can be quite decent, not usually the same as the great A pillar mount.
OK, thanks everyone for your suggestions, this thread has a gone a bit off the rails! Again, I'm just looking to put some off the shelf speakers in the stock mounting location. No component systems, no custom MDF kick panels, etc. Ideally, that would mean finding some drivers with good TS parameters for bass alignment (whatever that may be) and some good half-space measurements, preferably spinorama style. With more time available I would be vetting/measuring the speakers in half-space before installing in the car and then using a minidsp to make in-situ adjustments.
RAAM, thanks for the suggestion on the damping material. I might be willing to put some dynamat type material on the inner door panel since it would be low effort. I am hesitant to put damping material in the cavity (eg glass batt) since it would retain moisture.
Because I didn't know there was one. Also, I was hoping to find some data driven responses to this and that seems less likely in a car audio forum.
That's what I assumed. That or the "tweeter" (aka second tweeter) was not even hooked up. In the speakers you worked on was there a second small cap for the turd? Or is it wired together in series or parallel with the other tweeter? Also, out of curiosity, what was your design process?
The JBL GTO crossover seems like a reasonable minimum, with one resistor to pad the tweeter, one cap and one inductor. Using a single resistor instead of a L-pad also raises the tweeter impedance and allows for a smaller cap.
I'm going to order the GTO939 and 629 as mentioned above, install them and see what happens. I will do some before and after measurements at the driver seat to see what improvement there is.
RAAM, thanks for the suggestion on the damping material. I might be willing to put some dynamat type material on the inner door panel since it would be low effort. I am hesitant to put damping material in the cavity (eg glass batt) since it would retain moisture.
Because I didn't know there was one. Also, I was hoping to find some data driven responses to this and that seems less likely in a car audio forum.
That's what I assumed. That or the "tweeter" (aka second tweeter) was not even hooked up. In the speakers you worked on was there a second small cap for the turd? Or is it wired together in series or parallel with the other tweeter? Also, out of curiosity, what was your design process?
The JBL GTO crossover seems like a reasonable minimum, with one resistor to pad the tweeter, one cap and one inductor. Using a single resistor instead of a L-pad also raises the tweeter impedance and allows for a smaller cap.
I'm going to order the GTO939 and 629 as mentioned above, install them and see what happens. I will do some before and after measurements at the driver seat to see what improvement there is.
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Sorry, got a bit carried away🙂
I have not even upgraded one single car audio system in years.
Just one comment, so easy to put in a cheap set of decent tweeters in a good place, down in the door panels one of the worst possible.
Have fun and if you are happy with the results, great!!!
Rick
I have not even upgraded one single car audio system in years.
Just one comment, so easy to put in a cheap set of decent tweeters in a good place, down in the door panels one of the worst possible.
Have fun and if you are happy with the results, great!!!
Rick
I had a pair of infinity 6x9s, sounded awful compared to the 6.5” of the same variety.
They had been used on my bench for testing until a metal project produced some small chips, which found their way into the wrong places. I won’t miss them, although they’d cost more than the 6.5” ones.
They had been used on my bench for testing until a metal project produced some small chips, which found their way into the wrong places. I won’t miss them, although they’d cost more than the 6.5” ones.