jlsem said:
First off, just because I'm not agreeing with you doesn't mean "I don't get it", it simply means I disagree.
This is DIY forum discussing a commercial design. We design, discuss and build speakers here. Its natural that such claims would be questioned given the nature of this forum.
This thread had plenty of claims and when the claims were challenged the lack of measured performance and designer input meant that the topic couldn't sensibly be debated for some members. In light of the vacuum of any other possibilities and given this venue and the proclivities of the user base what did you expect?- That we'd all just sit back, pat Guru on the back and agree that you posted a thread that could transcend the boundaries and limitations of the internet as a medium and finally with mere words and pictures we could truly 'get' what Ingvars intention and outcome was with this design? Would I have "got it" then?
The truth is this thread, in the absence of sound, can only reveal words and pictures. We might, if we can stop arguing for a second, get an insight into the sound and the designers intent but like I said, we're discussing this over a very limiting medium and need to use it to its fullest and that means we need words and pictures - one of those is sadly missing from my point of view.
If you wanted this topic to be more revelatory in its subject matter than your best bet would have been to get a bunch of people together in a room and listen to the Guru's for some real meaningful interpretation. Instead you choose to bring it to a forum full of enquiring minds.
I'm not closed off to anything about the original intent of this thread, quite the opposite. The topic of measured accuracy and how it relates to the final sound is a fascinating one for me. I hope this thread can get back on topic and Ingvar can avoid defending his own designs and instead concentrate on providing input into this old but still misunderstood topic.
So I'll end by asking am I to take puzzling claims on face value despite my own experiences telling me that it was stretching plausability. Should I not question and simply believe, it might make life that bit more passive but I'm just not that sort of guy. If that means someone such as yourself disagrees with my approach that's absolutely fine.
Fair enough John, I think I've blown enough hot air already on this and I do understand where your coming from. Fortunately we aren't all the same so we get to disagree from time to time which is almost as much fun as agreeing. 🙂
We may have to aknowledge that there is only so and so much that Ingvar can tell us without revealing too much of his design
Anyhow, I am quite content with having learned a bit about a designer and his work...but sure, in this case more is better 🙂
Anyhow, I am quite content with having learned a bit about a designer and his work...but sure, in this case more is better 🙂
I probably shouldn't have allowed myself to come off as harshly as I did regarding your measurements. I certainly don't want denigrate your fine effort and hard work. I only wanted to emphasize the importance of using subjective test results (even if only casual, or in a pinch, a consensus of anecdotal data) as a tool in conjunction with objective or instrument test results. I picked the GURU as an example because the video seemed to document it as a successful result of applying this philosophy. I want to apologize if anyone's feelings were hurt (with one obvious exception).
John
jlsem said:
Nah I deserved most of it. 🙂
Its good thing because we can a step back and shake hands afterwards and say we learnt a little in the process.
I'm still very much interested to discuss about measured accuracy vs. real world results.
steve71 said:
The practicalities of distance prevent your light hearted joke from becoming a reality. But due to the wonders of the net, I've challenged John to a 5 rounds of Counter Strike where I plan to execute some brutal head shots followed by a close range knife attack to the throat. Lets see if he gets up from that one eh. 😀
R-Carpenter said:
I'm not very good but on the odd occasion I do have a go. Its not something I make a habit of these days because getting slaughtered by a bunch of 14 year olds with lightening reflexes just reminds me I'm getting older.
There's needs to be an old fart server.
Here is a slightly "modified" intervju with Mr Öhman regarding his outstanding Guru QM10....enjoy.........
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCH9p2V32yY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCH9p2V32yY
Well, I basically agree with you, The information on the web pageAndy Graddon said:
is of no use to you, not to me.
The thing is, that thera are basically ony two ways to communicate relevant inforamtion on a speaker design:
1. A comprehensive exhaustive description of everything, including the edjucation in acoustics that is necessary to grasp the matter. We are talking about a book with thousands of pages.
2. An aural presentation of the speakers themselves!
The former (1.) is impossible to do due to its size and the time it would take to produce it, not to speak of all that has to be said to prevent missunderstandings (if done on an internet forum).
Only the format of a lecture would do it, where there is a possiblility of direct feedback. That is absolutly necessary with a mixed public. I've done that many times in Sweden over the past 30 years (at Technical institutes, companies such as Ericsson, ABB and other High Tech electronic companies, for HiFi-clubs, music-clubs and other societys) and I'm perfectly willing to do it everywhere all over the world - where there is an interrest (=public large enugh) and a funding (and it has to be in english or in swedish).
The latter (2.) is impossible on an internet forum.
But can be done at hifi-shows, as has been done at three shows so far in USA.
Regarding the info on the home page; its not ment for you. We put it there only because we vere informed that it must be there. It's ment for people with less interrest for the technical details than you all are. But I can still se that it has not been invain. Obviously, it has caute the interrst of many of you.
Let me go over the things one by one (and please do not expect me to be complete):
I can see the questionmarks here, but I must guess to enterpret the actual question, if there is one... (I do not like to guess, but I'll do it anyway.)
The speakers typically (meaning "in the rooms we have used he speakers in so far") reaches 30 Hz in room response, when used as thes are supposed to be used.
The size 4" is active membrane diametre.
As someone suggested . it should probably say non text book-function. Sorry about that.
What it means, I hope I covered in the posts I've done earlyer in this thread. No? If not, please ask specific questions.
Well wented boxes are quite different from each other. There is ALWAYS a lot more to it than the words "vented box" (I rather prefer Helholtz resonator, since there are many types of vented boxes that are not Helholz resonators (DP-boxes, 1/4-wave pipes, open baffle designs, back loaded horns...)). I'ts just such a long story to tell, and it does not fit the format, neither a dta sheet or an internet discission forum.
But If I meet you in private or in a small gathering, and we all have a couple of hours to spend, I'd be happy to explain.
Best regards, Ingvar
IngOehman said:
Just in order to avoid confusion, the word "public" should really read "audience".
(The swedish word for "audience" is "publik".)
Yeah.., I would say it´s all about usual marketing disguised as appealing popular-scientific explanations on how to obtain hifi-nirvana.tinitus said:
A closer look at the content of his explanations reveals a line of reasoning that includes the following steps:
1. Crude or inappropriate, but for marketing purposes perfect, psycological statements of human hearing and the following "problems" with reproducing music stereophonic by loudspeakers. In order to appear more trustworthy reference to a private "research institution" is occationally given.
2. A brilliant (inpeccable)technical soluton to the alleged problems of the "stereo-system".
I think that many readers gets decieved by this narrations because the explanations seems logical. Most of his critics who gets the sense that somethong is wrong tries in vain to find faults in the technical reasonings, but the doubtfullness lies in the psycological parts of the reasoning. If asked on ambigouties in his assertions regarding the last mentioned matter a usual answer is that it is "to complicated to explain in a forum, but I´m willing to do it in my home or on a lecture.."
Of course rhetorical illusions are much more easy to create that way.
Since the explanations on human hearing seems commonsensible and his technical knowlege is dazzling the illusion often succeds, even on many people who judges them selves as more critical than those "others" who believes in hifi-myths!
Many who has been initiated in IngOhmans views feels enlighted and act as devoted missionaries as seen in this thread.
It´s all about belief🙂
Wrong. Dead wrong. You are insinuating that those of us who have listened to the speakers have fallen under the spell of some Swedish Svengali, which, to be frank, is an insult. Judging from your comments, I would say you are the one who is being dishonest. You are not the True Enlightened One of this forum.
John
Jlsem, I think you should calm down your temper just a bit...I had no problem to understand what Patrik meant about marketing
Ingvar is going a bit round the bushes and use many fine words
If I understand it correctly its much about "spycoanalytical" perception" or something like that
As Ingvar said earlier a measured straight line sound harsh
Some years ago someone mentioned that if you measure a big classical orchestra upper frequencies will be down 6db...so some of us have known this fore years
Would be interesting to see an ideal reference graphf with the response Ingvar think would be appropriate and lead to good sound 🙂
Ingvar is going a bit round the bushes and use many fine words
If I understand it correctly its much about "spycoanalytical" perception" or something like that
As Ingvar said earlier a measured straight line sound harsh
Some years ago someone mentioned that if you measure a big classical orchestra upper frequencies will be down 6db...so some of us have known this fore years
Would be interesting to see an ideal reference graphf with the response Ingvar think would be appropriate and lead to good sound 🙂
patrikf said:
Under this topic, one should also mention all the publicity he gets just by causing this commotion. There are quite alot of people here and even bad publicity is better then none at all. It looks like an attempt at getting more customers, by using this forum as an advertising medium.
MaVo said:
If you are smart, you should use this opportunety to learn some more regarding speaker building (that is if you are a diy kind of person), rather than making accusations. I am sure that your skills might be lifted to a new level if you take this opportunety seriously, no offence, you actually might learn something new.
I do not thing this thread are designed for advertising purposes.
Only the looks of the speakers might suggest that people seduction never was any issue at all designing these. You might want to look elsewhere, there are plenty of exampels on the marked where the money is spent on design rather than good engineering.
I was speaking in context to this sentence:
"Many who has been initiated in IngOhmans views feels enlighted and act as devoted missionaries as seen in this thread."
I don't care what GURU's marketing practices are. I'm only reacting to Patrik's comments towards people (including myself) who are participating in this thread.
John
IngOehman said:
So what would nominally be called a 5 1/2" driver... i have units downstairs that when loaded against a wall are capable of 30 Hz... they pay a price in efficiency, but they are also very inexpensive which i will assume yours aren't.
dave
publicity ? advertising ? markething methods?? I don´t think Öhmans interest in participating on this forum is because he want´s to sell more loudspeakers. Instead I believe it´s because he has a genuine interest in the art of building and designing them!
Since the topic was Guru loudspeakers, I believe he naturally took interest in trying to answer questions about them, of wich I´ve seen very little so fare! Questions that is!
Instead of exploring this opportunity to have a fruitfull conversation with a a truly great loudspeakerdesigner ( I think ) some participants makes every effort to cast a shadow on his replys!
I got the feeling that whatever Öhman wrote some of you would accuse him of "going round the bush" or something of that effect.
I have not a great understanding in the art of designing loudspeakers myself but I understand as much as that it´s a tricky topic and to try to describe how a loudspeaker is constructed in every minute detail is, as Öhman says a topic to massive for a internetforum, that alone would be a fulltime job! At least for a considerable period of time. Even more so since every answer is met with suspicion.
As you can see I´m also from Sweden and therefore biased towards Öhmans loudspeakers and himself some of you will say! but I can assure you all that I have no personal interest in him or his products, other that I would very much like to have a chance to listen to his products. I have never even seen any of his products in person, even less lissened to any of them, I dont even know anyone personally who has !
There does indeed seems to be a "following" of his loudspeakers but it seems to me that it´s among those who has actually heard them!
patrikf wrote "it´s all about belief" - well, actually I think it´s more about science and physichs. and a sensitiv ear as well!
But patrikf is not wrong in saying so though, just look at Linn !!
And why the questionmarks about the "30hz 4inch-driver???"
My own loudspeakers goes down to 25hz (0db in room ), a two-wayspeaker with a 135mm ( active dia) woofer/midrange, not my design. Measured via a Behringer digital EQ ( not used as EQ )
Since the topic was Guru loudspeakers, I believe he naturally took interest in trying to answer questions about them, of wich I´ve seen very little so fare! Questions that is!
Instead of exploring this opportunity to have a fruitfull conversation with a a truly great loudspeakerdesigner ( I think ) some participants makes every effort to cast a shadow on his replys!
I got the feeling that whatever Öhman wrote some of you would accuse him of "going round the bush" or something of that effect.
I have not a great understanding in the art of designing loudspeakers myself but I understand as much as that it´s a tricky topic and to try to describe how a loudspeaker is constructed in every minute detail is, as Öhman says a topic to massive for a internetforum, that alone would be a fulltime job! At least for a considerable period of time. Even more so since every answer is met with suspicion.
As you can see I´m also from Sweden and therefore biased towards Öhmans loudspeakers and himself some of you will say! but I can assure you all that I have no personal interest in him or his products, other that I would very much like to have a chance to listen to his products. I have never even seen any of his products in person, even less lissened to any of them, I dont even know anyone personally who has !
There does indeed seems to be a "following" of his loudspeakers but it seems to me that it´s among those who has actually heard them!
patrikf wrote "it´s all about belief" - well, actually I think it´s more about science and physichs. and a sensitiv ear as well!
But patrikf is not wrong in saying so though, just look at Linn !!
And why the questionmarks about the "30hz 4inch-driver???"
My own loudspeakers goes down to 25hz (0db in room ), a two-wayspeaker with a 135mm ( active dia) woofer/midrange, not my design. Measured via a Behringer digital EQ ( not used as EQ )
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