mr_macgee
Quite an intriguing idea actually. To strip and tin Litz wire you really are best off with a liquid flux, cut with Isospropal 99% pure alcohol to a weak tea color. This will ablate the wire coating off and tin all of the wires in a Litz bundle, very cleanly. Try it out and report back, I suspect it will be more than good enough.
Quite an intriguing idea actually. To strip and tin Litz wire you really are best off with a liquid flux, cut with Isospropal 99% pure alcohol to a weak tea color. This will ablate the wire coating off and tin all of the wires in a Litz bundle, very cleanly. Try it out and report back, I suspect it will be more than good enough.
Thats a lame answer. So it it is electrons? The sales pitch said they were only responsible for the negative cycle, so you disagree? I had a quick look at Ralph Morisons book, does it actually talk of ground side electrons and how they are responsible for only half the waveform or do guys extrapolate to the point of nonsense?
"he claims that just one solution, mathematically, would take acres of paper to print"
Isn't that convenient for you. You can just forget the math and physics and use your imagination.
Of course ground planes can be important but this is ludicrous.
Bring on the math and physics!
Here is some more gall for you.
Welcome to the Stereo Times
I did actually write the quoted text here, because the Japanese distributor wanted to publish something besides a paragraph of ?????????????
For the rest of the copy, both in 6 moons and Music Direct, I have no idea where it came from. I do, of course have a personal set of postulates about the bits of wire and thought pointing you to Morrison's book might lead you to an insight or two about the nature of grounds and what work they do in a circuit.
As for the antenna bit, sure, why not, it's just a shorted turn of Litz wire, in a type one braid, composed of 140 strands of #40 AWG insulated coil wire. If you want to figure out how many square inches of wire, at X inches long, show up out of shadow in 6 inches of the stuff, go ahead. Just don't assume I am going to try to prove that it is not an antennae.
Really guys, I don't care what you think about the things, I don't care what the marketing people who have taken the idea and run with it think either. I did demand that a money back guarantee be provided when they went to market, just so no one would be stuck with them. Also please note that luminaries such as SY and Morgan Jones could find absolutely no benefit from the loops. SY has a fully differential system, so no direct reference to ground and Morgan's test was at the ETF, a room filled with competing audio engineers, fed by reputedly awful power.
You might find some interesting information in the thread. Certainly a good number of papers were cited that had information about ground and one rather interesting, certainly repeatable, but still not a scientific study, of the audibility of loops vs a plate of copper was performed, by an actual engineer no less and is detailed in the thread. The loops are at least as much fun to fight about as the EnABL process is.
Bud
Welcome to the Stereo Times
I did actually write the quoted text here, because the Japanese distributor wanted to publish something besides a paragraph of ?????????????
For the rest of the copy, both in 6 moons and Music Direct, I have no idea where it came from. I do, of course have a personal set of postulates about the bits of wire and thought pointing you to Morrison's book might lead you to an insight or two about the nature of grounds and what work they do in a circuit.
As for the antenna bit, sure, why not, it's just a shorted turn of Litz wire, in a type one braid, composed of 140 strands of #40 AWG insulated coil wire. If you want to figure out how many square inches of wire, at X inches long, show up out of shadow in 6 inches of the stuff, go ahead. Just don't assume I am going to try to prove that it is not an antennae.
Really guys, I don't care what you think about the things, I don't care what the marketing people who have taken the idea and run with it think either. I did demand that a money back guarantee be provided when they went to market, just so no one would be stuck with them. Also please note that luminaries such as SY and Morgan Jones could find absolutely no benefit from the loops. SY has a fully differential system, so no direct reference to ground and Morgan's test was at the ETF, a room filled with competing audio engineers, fed by reputedly awful power.
You might find some interesting information in the thread. Certainly a good number of papers were cited that had information about ground and one rather interesting, certainly repeatable, but still not a scientific study, of the audibility of loops vs a plate of copper was performed, by an actual engineer no less and is detailed in the thread. The loops are at least as much fun to fight about as the EnABL process is.
Bud
Tried it with 29" of KK 4v loudspeaker cable @ speaker gr terminals
Seems that this would emulate the effect (plus I had some on hand). I have Martin Logan III speakers which are biamped. Only tried on the electrostatic panel. It was immediately noticeable as a darkening of the sound. Since my system has been balanced very carefully the immediate effect was thicker bass. But after 50 minutes of listening I get less soundstage and less liveliness ...the oposite of what others get.
I took it out and all was well again. But assuming I am wrong in my approach what should I alter to get the positive effect?
Seems that this would emulate the effect (plus I had some on hand). I have Martin Logan III speakers which are biamped. Only tried on the electrostatic panel. It was immediately noticeable as a darkening of the sound. Since my system has been balanced very carefully the immediate effect was thicker bass. But after 50 minutes of listening I get less soundstage and less liveliness ...the oposite of what others get.
I took it out and all was well again. But assuming I am wrong in my approach what should I alter to get the positive effect?
From the ad hoc testing done to date, it sounds as though you have too much dielectric material for the length and surface area of wire. The typical pattern is to sound rather sharp at first, with a strong center channel emphasis. This relaxes into a normal stereo image and then repeats this cycle, gaining a wider sound stage and more "back half of the wave form" information.
If you read through the thread you will find an number of DIY folks coming up with their own methods of arriving at the relationship of wire length to wire surface area to dielectric material amounts. You do want a very low dielectric constant plastic by the way, with polyolefin shrink tube as first choice.
Bud
If you read through the thread you will find an number of DIY folks coming up with their own methods of arriving at the relationship of wire length to wire surface area to dielectric material amounts. You do want a very low dielectric constant plastic by the way, with polyolefin shrink tube as first choice.
Bud
gtform00,
I think the hazy dotted line is that, since I do contribute to the financial viability of the forum, I can make references to things like tests and other commercial commentary, but I cannot put up a link to where the products can be purchased. I suspect that if I contributed more, then I would have as relaxed an oversight as Nelson Pass has. Also, Nelson goes out of his way to help people who want to build his designs and also provides other off line support to our favorite hobby. With the world economy in as bad a shape as it is, every bit of money traded for products is a good thing. Every bit of help we can provide to the folks who run this incredible forum is a good thing.
Ideals are a fine thing, but a black and white application of any sort of ideals always creates more problems than it solves. I would hope you could contribute financially to the forum and also come up with some good ideas of your own, provide them for free as is done here and on the EnABL threads and by Nelson on his threads and then go on to make and sell some of your work for profit for yourself and family.
I think you would be surprised at how many do exactly this and I cannot think of a better group to do peer reviews, than the hard nosed hard science guys you will find here.
Bud
I think the hazy dotted line is that, since I do contribute to the financial viability of the forum, I can make references to things like tests and other commercial commentary, but I cannot put up a link to where the products can be purchased. I suspect that if I contributed more, then I would have as relaxed an oversight as Nelson Pass has. Also, Nelson goes out of his way to help people who want to build his designs and also provides other off line support to our favorite hobby. With the world economy in as bad a shape as it is, every bit of money traded for products is a good thing. Every bit of help we can provide to the folks who run this incredible forum is a good thing.
Ideals are a fine thing, but a black and white application of any sort of ideals always creates more problems than it solves. I would hope you could contribute financially to the forum and also come up with some good ideas of your own, provide them for free as is done here and on the EnABL threads and by Nelson on his threads and then go on to make and sell some of your work for profit for yourself and family.
I think you would be surprised at how many do exactly this and I cannot think of a better group to do peer reviews, than the hard nosed hard science guys you will find here.
Bud
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Bud since I used the KK jumper cables I have 2 connectors per set. So just for kicks I tried adding the KK 20" link to both the bass and panel ground terminals on both r and l channels....whoa a totally different response: soundstage bigger deeper wider, more dynamics top to bottom. In general there is more extension top and bottom and more 'see into the soundstage'. It sounds as if I added 20% more power to both my amps. I'm thinking now that when I added only to the electrostatic panel ground terminal it changed the attack/release of the top end while leaving the bottom end the same and I got a gross lack of coherence between the two. I have to make a better set of connectors now to make this permanent. Also remember the KK interleaves the the 2 signal paths...maybe that adds some level of synergy as well (just speculating).
So the mechanism at work is the adding of a stiffer ground plane or a bigger reservoir of excess electrons to feed the system. Do I have that right?
So the mechanism at work is the adding of a stiffer ground plane or a bigger reservoir of excess electrons to feed the system. Do I have that right?
Regal, I'd be interested in what the star ground principles are, as the spider leg star grounding is one of the worse PCB topologies for EMC immunity, its main function (star point) is to avoid high current outputs swamping low level signals. Much better achieved with poured ground and careful placement of splits to control the current flow.
As to the pig tails acting as antenna, I belive to an extent they would. Whther the amount of noise picked up would affect things at the speaker terminals, it is doubtful. But early on in the thread it was pointed out that using these on digital outputs was not a good idea, and peoples results confirmed this.
I think the name chosen for the effect is a bit of a misnomer is some ways, the pig tails it seems have little or no effect when used with equipement with proper ground planes, yet with other equipement it does have an effect. If you look at some of the EMC related stuff from the likes of Keith Armstrong, Henry Ott etc there are some things that seem strange and almost magical at first, some that have been discussed again in earlier threads.
As to the pig tails acting as antenna, I belive to an extent they would. Whther the amount of noise picked up would affect things at the speaker terminals, it is doubtful. But early on in the thread it was pointed out that using these on digital outputs was not a good idea, and peoples results confirmed this.
I think the name chosen for the effect is a bit of a misnomer is some ways, the pig tails it seems have little or no effect when used with equipement with proper ground planes, yet with other equipement it does have an effect. If you look at some of the EMC related stuff from the likes of Keith Armstrong, Henry Ott etc there are some things that seem strange and almost magical at first, some that have been discussed again in earlier threads.
theob,
My Postulate
Electrons move at about 1 meter per second in an AC impressed signal cable. Mostly they just jitter back and forth, under the control of an information packet we usually call "signal". A signal is comprised of E Field and B Field, with E Field being the moment when the signal changes vector. At this moment the electrons holding the signal twist the axis of an electron, attached to a dielectric end atom, to the obverse of the spin and axis of the holding electron. This in turn causes the equivalent electron on the other end of the open chain of atoms, comprising the dielectric molecular structure, to twist to match the holding electron. Incidentally, this his is how AC signal is transferred across a dielectric barrier.
This momentary hold for vector change is controlled by the charge threshold of the dielectric material and the subsequent release threshold and the time between these two appears to be affected to a degree by how many electrons can be signaling within a given area. This later is referred to as "dielectric constant". Holding electrons, without sufficient charge to affect the electron on the end of the dielectric molecule's atom, are lost from the coherent signal. The release threshold also provides a time interval to the resumption of the AC signal as a B Field event. These three events all contribute to the loss of signal coherency on the return portion of the signal through the load.
The loop of wire, as a shorted turn comprised of many strands of insulated wire in my usage, coated with a two part dielectric material, polyurethane and nylon, has an extremely low RAC and RDC, but it's useful path length is very long, when considered as an unterminated wave guide. The entire loop is at a lower state of impedance than the ground it is attached to and over a period of time actually fills the open orbits of the empty orbits found in the copper wire. Due to the triboelectric effect of the additional pieces of dielectric, in the official electron pools, maintains this "filled" capacity, so long as there is a source of electrons to replace those that trickle away.
After attachment, those low level wide band signal components will be maintained in this unterminated wave guide. Meanwhile, being lost to poor dielectrics and boundaries between different pieces of metal, throughout the ground system provided, out to the local pole in the ground itself. I suppose we could claim quantum choice effects here, for the signal , as it moves at the speed of light through the pieces of wire involved in this choice, but I don't really think it's necessary to argue at that level.
Your notice of greater dynamic range is most likely just a drop in the noise floor and more coherence to the originating signal of information, on the back half of the signal waveform. These two are linked, since signal dropped from the "information packet" of a coherent information data stream will become a random event and cause random charged electrons to pass the information back through the load as noise.
In your particular case, with uninsulated pieces of wire comprising the unterminated wave guide, a length of around two feet and a near continuous length of dielectric is needed to perform the same job that the six inches of 140 strands of insulated wire and small amounts of added dielectric material provide, in the Ground Control or Electron Pool devices I have been experimenting with.
Marce,
I agree wholeheartedly with you about poured ground plane being THE superior provider of the effects that Ground Control emulates. Plus, many more benefits are brought to the situation with continuous grounds, separated into power and signal and split between channels in a two or more channel device. Neither of the two "strip" grounding schemes are as useful, though star grounding the various poured pads in a complex piece of gear is required.
Simon7000 provided an interesting link to me on grounds http://www.audioamateurinc.com/digit.../pageflip.html on page 40. The article Simon Points to concerns the need to fill all via holes to ground, in a circuit board that has two sided plating, and some other neat observations too.
Bud
My Postulate
Electrons move at about 1 meter per second in an AC impressed signal cable. Mostly they just jitter back and forth, under the control of an information packet we usually call "signal". A signal is comprised of E Field and B Field, with E Field being the moment when the signal changes vector. At this moment the electrons holding the signal twist the axis of an electron, attached to a dielectric end atom, to the obverse of the spin and axis of the holding electron. This in turn causes the equivalent electron on the other end of the open chain of atoms, comprising the dielectric molecular structure, to twist to match the holding electron. Incidentally, this his is how AC signal is transferred across a dielectric barrier.
This momentary hold for vector change is controlled by the charge threshold of the dielectric material and the subsequent release threshold and the time between these two appears to be affected to a degree by how many electrons can be signaling within a given area. This later is referred to as "dielectric constant". Holding electrons, without sufficient charge to affect the electron on the end of the dielectric molecule's atom, are lost from the coherent signal. The release threshold also provides a time interval to the resumption of the AC signal as a B Field event. These three events all contribute to the loss of signal coherency on the return portion of the signal through the load.
The loop of wire, as a shorted turn comprised of many strands of insulated wire in my usage, coated with a two part dielectric material, polyurethane and nylon, has an extremely low RAC and RDC, but it's useful path length is very long, when considered as an unterminated wave guide. The entire loop is at a lower state of impedance than the ground it is attached to and over a period of time actually fills the open orbits of the empty orbits found in the copper wire. Due to the triboelectric effect of the additional pieces of dielectric, in the official electron pools, maintains this "filled" capacity, so long as there is a source of electrons to replace those that trickle away.
After attachment, those low level wide band signal components will be maintained in this unterminated wave guide. Meanwhile, being lost to poor dielectrics and boundaries between different pieces of metal, throughout the ground system provided, out to the local pole in the ground itself. I suppose we could claim quantum choice effects here, for the signal , as it moves at the speed of light through the pieces of wire involved in this choice, but I don't really think it's necessary to argue at that level.
Your notice of greater dynamic range is most likely just a drop in the noise floor and more coherence to the originating signal of information, on the back half of the signal waveform. These two are linked, since signal dropped from the "information packet" of a coherent information data stream will become a random event and cause random charged electrons to pass the information back through the load as noise.
In your particular case, with uninsulated pieces of wire comprising the unterminated wave guide, a length of around two feet and a near continuous length of dielectric is needed to perform the same job that the six inches of 140 strands of insulated wire and small amounts of added dielectric material provide, in the Ground Control or Electron Pool devices I have been experimenting with.
Marce,
I agree wholeheartedly with you about poured ground plane being THE superior provider of the effects that Ground Control emulates. Plus, many more benefits are brought to the situation with continuous grounds, separated into power and signal and split between channels in a two or more channel device. Neither of the two "strip" grounding schemes are as useful, though star grounding the various poured pads in a complex piece of gear is required.
Simon7000 provided an interesting link to me on grounds http://www.audioamateurinc.com/digit.../pageflip.html on page 40. The article Simon Points to concerns the need to fill all via holes to ground, in a circuit board that has two sided plating, and some other neat observations too.
Bud
Budp
Thanks very much. It is a very interesting postulate. I guess the street version would be more free electrons to boost the integrity of the flow. Make sense?
Also what really blew me away was the elimination of some forms of hardness/gritiness through use of the 'dongles'. Some files (i'm 100% pc audio) were unlistenable before but are now less harsh almost as if those excess free electrons are filling holes in the sound.
Btw I added some makeshift dongles to my rca connector grounds into my subwoofer: results are the same.
Bravo!!
Thanks very much. It is a very interesting postulate. I guess the street version would be more free electrons to boost the integrity of the flow. Make sense?
Also what really blew me away was the elimination of some forms of hardness/gritiness through use of the 'dongles'. Some files (i'm 100% pc audio) were unlistenable before but are now less harsh almost as if those excess free electrons are filling holes in the sound.
Btw I added some makeshift dongles to my rca connector grounds into my subwoofer: results are the same.
Bravo!!
That link didn't work for me
http://www.audioamateurinc.com/digital/ax/issue/410/pageflip.html
does.
A single via can represent a significant DCR ant low signal levels.
Extra solder reduces this. But better to add many vias!
No magic.
http://www.audioamateurinc.com/digital/ax/issue/410/pageflip.html
does.
A single via can represent a significant DCR ant low signal levels.
Extra solder reduces this. But better to add many vias!
No magic.
theob,
I think we are just preserving more of what is already there and that the "hard, thin, gritty character comes from lousy preservation of the return signal. I think the signal itself is just fine. Back in the thread somewhere you will find some enthusiasm for placing loops on the strip grounds within CD players, just on the analog out portion. Same reduction of those three unwanted traits and a very beguiling increase in depth of field and other tiny sounds.
Thanks for the revised link Cliff. I have no idea how widely known what was presented is, but I thought it worth pointing to.
Bud
I think we are just preserving more of what is already there and that the "hard, thin, gritty character comes from lousy preservation of the return signal. I think the signal itself is just fine. Back in the thread somewhere you will find some enthusiasm for placing loops on the strip grounds within CD players, just on the analog out portion. Same reduction of those three unwanted traits and a very beguiling increase in depth of field and other tiny sounds.
Thanks for the revised link Cliff. I have no idea how widely known what was presented is, but I thought it worth pointing to.
Bud
Filling vias can be dodgy, you have to enshure that they are filled correctly ie top to bottom, and not half filled as can sometimes happen with wave soldering, due to thermal expansion problems causing barrel cracking. It is rarely done these days as vias on digital boards tend to be around 0.25mm finished hole size average, and probably 0.5/0.7 on less dense and analogue boards. Also the change in dcr etc is not that great, for high current transfer paralled vias are best.
You can download the Saturn Toolkit for PCB designers here, that give you load of usefull calculators, including Vias properties:
PCB Via Current | PCB Trace Width | Differential Pair Calculator | PCB Impedance
Ground planes are important, I have only done a couple of doublesided boards in the last 15 years as 4 plus layers with a contigous ground layer is almost mandetory not just for signal integrity, but also to get equipment through (in our case) stringent EMC testing.
Some fun and relevant threads can be found here regarding ground planes, PCB design etc:
Analog and Digital Ground Planes - PCB Matrix Forum - Page 1
Have Fun.
You can download the Saturn Toolkit for PCB designers here, that give you load of usefull calculators, including Vias properties:
PCB Via Current | PCB Trace Width | Differential Pair Calculator | PCB Impedance
Ground planes are important, I have only done a couple of doublesided boards in the last 15 years as 4 plus layers with a contigous ground layer is almost mandetory not just for signal integrity, but also to get equipment through (in our case) stringent EMC testing.
Some fun and relevant threads can be found here regarding ground planes, PCB design etc:
Analog and Digital Ground Planes - PCB Matrix Forum - Page 1
Have Fun.
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