Woah, wait a second...so i get this clear. For full range drivers you should simply use just a single strand of CAT5 for pos and a single strand of CAT5 for neg? That's it? no twisting and combining of strands?
Dust said:
Because it sounds better.
We started with many strands, and everytime we lost conductors it got better. (from 2 to none didn't work so well 🙂)
What Bob says is true... the higher the efficiency of your speaker the less current you need to "push" down the wire. Note that one can use really skinny wire (30g or smaller magnet wire) to increase the effective output impedance of an amplifier and get more bass (to work properly the driver has to have good inherent mechanical damping -- most of the FR we use).
dave
chuyler1 said:
One can never make a blanket statement like that -- there is far too much system dependency to do that. But many will sound better with a pair of single strands (you can try separating the strands instead of leaving them with their inherent twist. Note also that CAT5 is not likely the be all & end all of speaker wire. It is thou, a value leader. It is of fairly high consistency, made with high purity copper, and is incredibly cheap & high bang-for-the-buck because us diy guys are riding on the backs of the billions of kilometers of wire being made for the computer industry.
Given the state of the wire industry, trying to ferret out the REALLY superior wires from the snake oil, especially given that what is best is dependent on what is at either end, is a task for only the really wealthy without anything better to do. I have just decided to not obsess over it, using something that i know is decent, and that i'd likely have to spend ALOT more to better (i do use solid core, try to use plenum grade, and to get it cryo treated)
dave
I understand, short of paying exotic money for exotic wires. I've got a whole box of cat5 in my basement from when I networked my home. i was thinking about braiding a bunch but I guess I'll have to experiment with single strands first.
>>> I was thinking of using one full cat5 (all 8 conductors) for each terminal. Why do you only use 2 strands?
It seems such a wimpy connection.
It does, doesn't it. I used Cat 5 (all 8 conductors) inside my speakers. Never tried using less strands. I also ran Cat 5 from my amp to the speakers. Honestly, i feel like replacing it with regular speaker cable. The audible difference is probably slim to none. One day i will swap the cables around and see.
Godzilla
It seems such a wimpy connection.
It does, doesn't it. I used Cat 5 (all 8 conductors) inside my speakers. Never tried using less strands. I also ran Cat 5 from my amp to the speakers. Honestly, i feel like replacing it with regular speaker cable. The audible difference is probably slim to none. One day i will swap the cables around and see.
Godzilla
chuyler1 said:
Well, and exotic doesn't necessarily mean better anyway. I can't listen to Nordost Valhalla, for example. Tizzes my ears off. A good wireset should make one say "Ah, this is what I love about these speakers/amp", not "Wow, listen to that cable!"
It's a tough position for a consumer. Unless you find someone making good stuff by hand, most stuff in the industry is just coaxes, twinaxes, etc., with materials variations. Precious few invest in proprietary anything, or do their own manufacturing. The wire itself isn't internally made by any companies, with Soundstring being the exception here, the rest of the companies being assemblers.
Kimber does their own winding of geometries for the braided cables, but the coaxes, etc. are sourced by-spool from the wire company who provides the raw conductors (AFAIK). Kimber does have an ownership position there, so they're able to get whatever materials they want, and they have proprietary materials/stranding.
AudioQuest and Cardas also take deeper stances into the production of their wires and have proprietary technologies.
In short, most hifi wire is just heavily marked up standard cables with oversized jackets and better materials/connectors. There's nothing wrong with this model, the problem exists when they load the marketing with BS as if they're doing something unique.
Dave's right that cat5 represents a lot of value and that it's highly system dependent.
It's not that much of a big deal. You really don't need much more than a pair of 24ga conductors for many FR units unless a long run is needed to keep voltage drop to a minimum.
Thanks guys for all the input. If i had access to binding posts after I glue up I would be interested in experimenting but once the side goes on I'm kinda stuffed. Strange though, psychologically I look at two strands and my gut just says nope! I will probably go for 3 strands a side. found this chart which I don't fully get, but seems to suggest it's not super critical. 3 strands at 0.5 x 3 should give me 1.5mm conductor at 0.045 ohms resistance ihttp://www.lautsprechershop.de/hifi/index_en.htm?/hifi/inter_ps_ls_kabel_en.htmn
Some thoughts on CAT5 cables.
If you physically separate the +ve and -ve conductors -- i.e. zip cord, you can use any number of stands of 24ga wire for any overall AWG you want. As pointed out by Scottmoose, zip cord give the best overall balance of capacitance and inductance.
Twisted pair and even numbered braids will give you some degree of RFI rejection, although if RFI is an issue, you probably need shielded cable and that's a whole other issue. Twisting reduces inductance -- a good thing -- and increases capacitance -- a bad thing, how bad depending on your amp. The logical progression is:
2 wires. Simply strip out any pair and go. Planet10 pointed out that you should use the same color pair for both speakers as the twist of each pair in CAT5e and CAT6 cables is different. This is technically correct, although I have doubts as to practical consequences.
4 wires. The best route here is a star wind. Untwist each pair and retwist the 4 wires so that the cross section looks like
+
- -
+
A 4-strand braid is doable, but is an order of magnitude harder than a 3-strand braid. I have done this and it looks very nice.
8 wires. Now you are talking about using the whole CAT5 cable. Only two thing make any kind of sense. The common route is to connect the four solids together and the four stripes together. The other choice is to take any two pairs and connect them and likewise with the other two pairs. I have no idea if this make any sonic difference, but the wires will lay better at the break-out for the connectors. An 8-strand round braid is possible but enormously time consuming. I built about six inches of it one evening before I throw it away. It was gorgous though.
Odd strand braids make no sense to me. You wind up with a lot of blisters on you fingers for what is essentially a raw CAT5 cable.
What is the sonic differenc between all of these? well, not much. You will have to try each for yourself. Report back!
Quiz: What is the standard you will use to compare these cables?
Bob
If you physically separate the +ve and -ve conductors -- i.e. zip cord, you can use any number of stands of 24ga wire for any overall AWG you want. As pointed out by Scottmoose, zip cord give the best overall balance of capacitance and inductance.
Twisted pair and even numbered braids will give you some degree of RFI rejection, although if RFI is an issue, you probably need shielded cable and that's a whole other issue. Twisting reduces inductance -- a good thing -- and increases capacitance -- a bad thing, how bad depending on your amp. The logical progression is:
2 wires. Simply strip out any pair and go. Planet10 pointed out that you should use the same color pair for both speakers as the twist of each pair in CAT5e and CAT6 cables is different. This is technically correct, although I have doubts as to practical consequences.
4 wires. The best route here is a star wind. Untwist each pair and retwist the 4 wires so that the cross section looks like
+
- -
+
A 4-strand braid is doable, but is an order of magnitude harder than a 3-strand braid. I have done this and it looks very nice.
8 wires. Now you are talking about using the whole CAT5 cable. Only two thing make any kind of sense. The common route is to connect the four solids together and the four stripes together. The other choice is to take any two pairs and connect them and likewise with the other two pairs. I have no idea if this make any sonic difference, but the wires will lay better at the break-out for the connectors. An 8-strand round braid is possible but enormously time consuming. I built about six inches of it one evening before I throw it away. It was gorgous though.
Odd strand braids make no sense to me. You wind up with a lot of blisters on you fingers for what is essentially a raw CAT5 cable.
What is the sonic differenc between all of these? well, not much. You will have to try each for yourself. Report back!
Quiz: What is the standard you will use to compare these cables?
Bob
I have a hard enough time picking out differences between wires over longer runs (providing they're not insanely different) so internal wiring, as Bob expanded on, is not going to make a whole lot of difference.
Well I am well and truly P-off with myself . I have somehow managed to glue up my vent piece crooked. AGAIN!
So, when I put the inner box in to mark up I have one vent gap that measures good on one side of box but then runs wide along it's length by about 1-2 mm. Other vent is similar but only runs wide less than 1mm. Not sure what can be done. I thought about cutting the brace with a bit of a lump in it, as if I flex the box the vents even out a bit. what would you guys do? split the difference in gap width? veneer part of the vent pieces? get chainsaw out for some fun?
So, when I put the inner box in to mark up I have one vent gap that measures good on one side of box but then runs wide along it's length by about 1-2 mm. Other vent is similar but only runs wide less than 1mm. Not sure what can be done. I thought about cutting the brace with a bit of a lump in it, as if I flex the box the vents even out a bit. what would you guys do? split the difference in gap width? veneer part of the vent pieces? get chainsaw out for some fun?
Need more info
Dust, your impulse to fill the gap is a good one...leave the chain saw for later.😉
Is the area of the gap visible from the listening position?
Does the gap affect the x-section area of the vent?
Can a shim be made to fill the gap...avoiding the clamp-warping of the case?
What finish do you plan? Paint?
You still have 100% chance of success.😉
Dust, your impulse to fill the gap is a good one...leave the chain saw for later.😉
Is the area of the gap visible from the listening position?
Does the gap affect the x-section area of the vent?
Can a shim be made to fill the gap...avoiding the clamp-warping of the case?
What finish do you plan? Paint?
You still have 100% chance of success.😉
Hi Ed. The vents will not be visible once I've put the side on.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by cross-section but If you mean the whole surface of the vent pieces measured diagonally then I think yes. As far as a shim goes, I have some iron on veneer at about 1mm thick. I have just oiled the wood with some Danish oil. Picture is bottom of vent ... about 9.5mm
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by cross-section but If you mean the whole surface of the vent pieces measured diagonally then I think yes. As far as a shim goes, I have some iron on veneer at about 1mm thick. I have just oiled the wood with some Danish oil. Picture is bottom of vent ... about 9.5mm
Attachments
Ok
I would fill the void with a strip of wood. The care you exercise in its placement will determine the degree to which it is visible when completed. Inside the case doesn't pose a problem...you can make the filler wider than necessary and all of the excess can be inside. The edge of the filler along the outside edge needs to be neat.
I would cut a very small piece of wood 9.5 mm (~= 3/8") long and place it in the throat entry. This could be a wedge for removal through the driver hole later. Bend the wood throat to allow it to fit. Mark the location on the outside of the case. If the 9.5 mm spacer causes the back to bulge, a clamp placed there will bring it into alignment during glue-up. After the side is glued on it will be forgotten.😉
I would fill the void with a strip of wood. The care you exercise in its placement will determine the degree to which it is visible when completed. Inside the case doesn't pose a problem...you can make the filler wider than necessary and all of the excess can be inside. The edge of the filler along the outside edge needs to be neat.
I would cut a very small piece of wood 9.5 mm (~= 3/8") long and place it in the throat entry. This could be a wedge for removal through the driver hole later. Bend the wood throat to allow it to fit. Mark the location on the outside of the case. If the 9.5 mm spacer causes the back to bulge, a clamp placed there will bring it into alignment during glue-up. After the side is glued on it will be forgotten.😉
Thanks Ed. Just to clarify, you are saying make the 9.5 mm strip of wood 82mm long ( the width of the vent piece) and wedge it in at the top of vent. (the 7.5mm gap) Yes? to be knocked out after glue-up? Correct?
Dust,
In my second paragraph above, I gave you 2 options:
1) A 9.5 mm "post" to spread the throat from the back of the case, to stay in place or pulled out later. This could be as small as 1/8" x 1/4" x 9.5 mm and would have very, very, little effect on response.
2) A wedge to be adjusted in place to arrive at a 9.5 mm space between the throat and back of case, to be removed after assembly.
Removal after glue up depends upon keeping glue away from the subject piece.
HTH
In my second paragraph above, I gave you 2 options:
1) A 9.5 mm "post" to spread the throat from the back of the case, to stay in place or pulled out later. This could be as small as 1/8" x 1/4" x 9.5 mm and would have very, very, little effect on response.
2) A wedge to be adjusted in place to arrive at a 9.5 mm space between the throat and back of case, to be removed after assembly.
Removal after glue up depends upon keeping glue away from the subject piece.
HTH
Ok Ed, I'll give it some thought.
Thanks very much.
Your avatar takes me back ....didn't he knock out a horse?
Thanks very much.
Your avatar takes me back ....didn't he knock out a horse?
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