And you'll also find out whether you like the "honky" sound of a waveguide. Some people like it, others can't tolerate it.
How do horn loaded speakers work and sound? - YouTube
Why aren't there more horn speakers? - YouTube
How do horn loaded speakers work and sound? - YouTube
Why aren't there more horn speakers? - YouTube
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Last time I heard a Klipsch was in a store about 3 years ago and it was plenty "honky". I wouldn't even think about buying it. If you are suggesting that things have change that much in the last few years I would try another audition once the stores open up again. Given the basic principles for mechanical amplification of sound, however, I'm not sure that you can ever get rid of the "honkyness" completely.
And as Paul McGowen points out, why even bother with horns when you can accomplish as good or better results with normal dynamic drivers on baffles.
And as Paul McGowen points out, why even bother with horns when you can accomplish as good or better results with normal dynamic drivers on baffles.
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in re: to a preference for either: CD+Waveguide (i.e. PA-like) speaker vs direct radiators (i.e. typical "home speaker"):
The Preference for Direct Radiators
if a direct radiator speaker is designed for a proper "listening window" say a sofa width at 12ft distance, there is little reason to go for something which is also meant to get sound over greater depth and maybe more height range (for listening in standing and sitting positions) like in PA use. The latter calls for arrays, horns, synergy, etc.
The Preference for Direct Radiators
if a direct radiator speaker is designed for a proper "listening window" say a sofa width at 12ft distance, there is little reason to go for something which is also meant to get sound over greater depth and maybe more height range (for listening in standing and sitting positions) like in PA use. The latter calls for arrays, horns, synergy, etc.
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What some people fortunately advise others is that they can build speakers themselves with readily available components for 1/10 the cost of commercially produced speakers, and that the DIY speakers will have at least as good and in many cases significantly better performance than those store bought products.
That is the essence and purpose of the DIY community, which you are obviously not a part of, or believe in.
I find your advice to others very unfortunate, since you are seriously misleading them into spend far more money than they have to in order to obtain outstanding sound quality with speakers that are particularly well suited to their needs.
It would really be best for everyone if people who do not believe in DIY would refrain from misleading others, particularly newbies, by not posting here on this DIY specific forum.
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Actually, there are only two things you can't** do with passive crossovers that you can with DSP: Finite impulse response (FIR) filters and delays.
So you can't add frequency independent delays or build linear phase filters with passive components, but you don't *need* these to build an audibly excellent multiway speaker. Infinite impulse filters (what passive filters are), will approximate the characteristics of ideal delays and linear phase filters just fine, especially when there is barely a couple of octaves where two drivers audibly overlap.
DSPs and multiple amplifiers also have disadvantages, including but not limited to:
-Increased cost/complexity, power consumption, size, heat generation, failure rate
-Compromised noise floor/distortion of additional ADCs/DACs if you insert a DSP after the signal has already been converted to analogue. Even if your DSPs are integrated before the first analog to digital conversion, noise floor will still be worse than a passive system as every driver in the system emits full spectrum electrical noise (20Hz-20kHz), where as in a passive system each driver only emits electrical noise over the frequency range which its passive crossover filter allows through. This is especially bad if electrical noise is allowed to play on severe driver breakup nodes.
-Increased risk of unintentional low frequency pops and bangs, clipping, DC destroying HF drivers
The main advantage I see in DSP is that once you have made the initial investment in hardware and accepted the above technical shortcomings over a passive filter, it is easy and quick to modify/tweak the filters and also repurpose the hardware for an entirely different system design at no cost and with no physical wastage.
Finally there is one thing that passive components can do which DSPs can not - Current-drive. When you attenuate a driver with a series resistor it tends towards current drive rather than voltage drive and this is known to reduce non-linear distortion, often significantly:
https://www.researchgate.net/profil...aker-SystemsUsing-Current-DriveTechnology.pdf
Given that some attenuation is required to match levels between drivers in a multi-way system, you get some of this current drive advantage for 'free' with a passive crossover. Of course, there's nothing stopping you placing a resistor in series with the driver in an active system and performing the rest of the filtering in the digital domain to achieve the same result.
**Actually, technically that is a lie as you could build a passive tapped filter but it would be hopelessly impractical at audio frequencies and typical driver impedances - kilometers of wiring and significant resistive losses.
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Anand,
I read the review on Erin's site, haven't watched the video yet. The review got me thinking (a lot) and then I stopped thinking, as it's way out of my budget range. 🙂
I'll settle for a good DIY design for now.
Kudos to the Dutch & Dutch team. Would be great to give the 8C a listen.
I read the review on Erin's site, haven't watched the video yet. The review got me thinking (a lot) and then I stopped thinking, as it's way out of my budget range. 🙂
I'll settle for a good DIY design for now.
Kudos to the Dutch & Dutch team. Would be great to give the 8C a listen.
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It is good to have a reference speaker to compare against, otherwise it is very hard to judge if the DIY speaker is good enough. Listening DIY side by side with a reference will tell easily if performance is at expected level.
Commercial loudspeakers have second hand market so there is hardly any money lost if buying second hand. More over, the mentioned JBL 305P MKII is so cheap it is very hard to make DIY speaker any cheaper event if personal time was valued as zero and bought cheapest parts and materials possible. It is 119€ with two drivers, amplifier, hardware, decent looking finish on a something stiffer than a cereal box and performance seems to be pretty good so I don't see any money lost. Good advice in my view.
DIY is fun but takes some serious investment of time to get the performance and looks of commercial units unless it is a DIY kit and manufacturing skills are already there with all the required tools. My motivation to do DIY speakers is to get the looks I like with suitable form factor while having fun. Has taken many years and still listening a mono prototype box 😀 Had lots of fun though.
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The interesting thing is, in my perspective, $12.5K is not a lot of money for this level of performance. I can afford it now. But...it will KILL my diyaudio hobby. I know it!
And my perspective involves my own Geddes NA12, and I have listened to the JBL M2 and Danley's older designs. He has a newer design, called the Hyperion which is coming out and super interesting. Like you I want to listen to the Dutch 8C, but I also want to forget it as soon as I listen to it.
And now I digress...
For the past month, I stopped listening to my Neurochrome Modulus 686. Why? Cause I stopped soldering. Completely. Now I am back at it again and am playing with an Aleph J, M2X, etc...😀
Anyway...sorry for the digression.
Best,
Anand.
Anand,
You are spot on with the sentiment - with too perfect a system, I also sometimes get worried that it might impact the enthusiasm for the hobby. 🙂 Of course I love to enjoy the music, but I kinda like to build stuff too...
Great to hear that you are back with solder and iron in hand. Look forward to updates on those project in their respective threads. I've seen build pics of one of your Modulus amps and it was impeccable.
- Zia
You are spot on with the sentiment - with too perfect a system, I also sometimes get worried that it might impact the enthusiasm for the hobby. 🙂 Of course I love to enjoy the music, but I kinda like to build stuff too...
Great to hear that you are back with solder and iron in hand. Look forward to updates on those project in their respective threads. I've seen build pics of one of your Modulus amps and it was impeccable.
- Zia
Since a lot of people who build stuff like effects boxes of one form or another I don't see perfection putting them off.
I don't know why anyone would use a cheap plastic box speaker with terrible distortion specifications like the JBL 305/P as a reference. Makes absolutely no sense.
If you want an inexpensive reference then build Jeff Bagby's Continuum II or something similar from one of the other outstanding designers.
Not this piece of junk from JBL.
I have no issues with a well done plastic box, but often the choice is cost not performance.
As 3D becomes more and more relevant and advances further we will see a lot of “plastic” speakers. In the end execution is very important.
I have been scheming for some time about how 3D printing can improve my speaker box designs.
dave
As 3D becomes more and more relevant and advances further we will see a lot of “plastic” speakers. In the end execution is very important.
I have been scheming for some time about how 3D printing can improve my speaker box designs.
dave
Floyd Toole made some relevant comments on the waveguide vs waveguide shootout:
Why is it waveguide vs waveguide not waveguide vs direct radiator? Because the Revel Salon2 uses a waveguide at 2.3kHz.
1) Speaker measurements matter in predicting performance. Good measurements backed up by double blind listening tests by the manufacturer = good speakers.
2) Revel's waveguide controls above 2.3kHz while the M2 controls down to 800Hz. The JBL 305P Mk II waveguide (& the 708) starts controlling about 1.7kHz.
The key thing to understand is these different speakers all sound good when used within their design parameters. The reason they're good is because they track directivity patterns that earn high listener ratings in double blind tests. At this point someone might think I said *only* these directivity patterns sound good but that's not what I said. These JBL/Revel directivity patterns predict good performance. Good performance isn't restricted to their directivity patterns. But, thanks to science, buying good speakers is easy today. You can buy a speaker online and know it's going to be good as long there wasn't a defect during manufacturing.
A secondary issue relevant to DIY audio is there's no waveguide vs direct radiator dilemma.
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That is too much generalization classicalfan, for example forum member Patrick Bateman hasn't got any satisfactory builts, by his own words, and he has done more projects than 99% of the members here. I haven't been able to make a finished speakers so cannot even compare the success yet. So DIY doesn't rule commercial every time. Continuum II might be better (in terms of sound) than the JBL, but it is 50% more expensive with the barebones kit already, without amp, enclosure and all the hardware and work so it is in a different league with the price. I cannot comment how they sound, double blind test required if price difference needs to be justified.
By all means everyone should buy best speaker (or components) they can afford but after the shopping phase 99% of the work is still ahead. It is a lot of hours, I mean a lot, to get to speaker builder level that beats commercial units every time. I mean you've got to be one of the best designers in the world and a master craftsman (or mad CAD skills). Admirable goal it is, and a fun journey but I hope people would understand the others might have different perspective, different goal. Pushing an agenda is not helpful and encouragement is more powerful tool to deliver the message than suppression, this advice goes to everyone including me.
By all means everyone should buy best speaker (or components) they can afford but after the shopping phase 99% of the work is still ahead. It is a lot of hours, I mean a lot, to get to speaker builder level that beats commercial units every time. I mean you've got to be one of the best designers in the world and a master craftsman (or mad CAD skills). Admirable goal it is, and a fun journey but I hope people would understand the others might have different perspective, different goal. Pushing an agenda is not helpful and encouragement is more powerful tool to deliver the message than suppression, this advice goes to everyone including me.
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You’re missing the point, just as bradleypnw is missing it. Please excuse me for shouting, but I think it is necessary now to get my point across.
THIS IS A DIY FORUM. DIY STANDS FOR DO IT YOURSELF.
Ok, I’ll calm down now.
First of all I don’t really believe that someone as expert as Patrick Bateman has not done any satisfactory builds. I haven’t read all of his posts, but most of them I’ve seen have very positive results. If you can find one where he says that’s not true, I would be interested in seeing it.
Moreover, thousands of other DIYers have had enormous success building their own speakers. And only a small portion of them post on this forum. The total DIY speaker community is much, much larger than those represented here on diyaudio.
Just to be clear, I was not trying to compare the Continuum II to the JBL on a price basis. I was simply suggesting that if someone wanted an inexpensive reference speaker the Continuum II would be a very good choice and far better than the JBL. The Continuum II kit is only $350 and has received numerous outstanding reviews over multiple years. And I don’t consider that prices of $238 and $350 are in a different league.
Your comment that a lot of hours are required to build a DIY speaker is exactly right. It does take a lot of time. And anyone who is not interested in spending that time should not consider building speakers themselves. Those people are not DIYers and should simply buy a commercial product that suits them. And not worry about whether they are getting the best value for their money or not.
But your comment about the need for a DIYer to be one of the best designers is wrong. As I have pointed out in this thread, as well as other threads, most people should buy a kit that has been designed by an expert and not try to design their own speaker. There are many kits available for many different types of rooms and listening experiences. Although some people here do choose to create their own design, I think is generally a mistake. Particularly for newbies who come here and want to create their first design.
Just remember. It is still DIY if you build speakers according to someone else’s design.
And yes, you do need to be able to build the speaker cabinets. You need some basic woodworking skills and tools to match. But you do not have to be master craftsman to build speaker cabinets. They can be very simple and easy to build if approached the right way.
Finally, I don’t why you made the comment that “Encouragement is more powerful tool to deliver a message than suppression” if you were referring to me. I would encourage anyone who wants to truly be a DIYer to do so. I don’t believe that I have been suppressing anyone.
So one more time for you and bradleypnw. Just want to make sure that you get the point:
This is a DIYAUDIO forum.
THIS IS A DIY FORUM. DIY STANDS FOR DO IT YOURSELF.
Ok, I’ll calm down now.
First of all I don’t really believe that someone as expert as Patrick Bateman has not done any satisfactory builds. I haven’t read all of his posts, but most of them I’ve seen have very positive results. If you can find one where he says that’s not true, I would be interested in seeing it.
Moreover, thousands of other DIYers have had enormous success building their own speakers. And only a small portion of them post on this forum. The total DIY speaker community is much, much larger than those represented here on diyaudio.
Just to be clear, I was not trying to compare the Continuum II to the JBL on a price basis. I was simply suggesting that if someone wanted an inexpensive reference speaker the Continuum II would be a very good choice and far better than the JBL. The Continuum II kit is only $350 and has received numerous outstanding reviews over multiple years. And I don’t consider that prices of $238 and $350 are in a different league.
Your comment that a lot of hours are required to build a DIY speaker is exactly right. It does take a lot of time. And anyone who is not interested in spending that time should not consider building speakers themselves. Those people are not DIYers and should simply buy a commercial product that suits them. And not worry about whether they are getting the best value for their money or not.
But your comment about the need for a DIYer to be one of the best designers is wrong. As I have pointed out in this thread, as well as other threads, most people should buy a kit that has been designed by an expert and not try to design their own speaker. There are many kits available for many different types of rooms and listening experiences. Although some people here do choose to create their own design, I think is generally a mistake. Particularly for newbies who come here and want to create their first design.
Just remember. It is still DIY if you build speakers according to someone else’s design.
And yes, you do need to be able to build the speaker cabinets. You need some basic woodworking skills and tools to match. But you do not have to be master craftsman to build speaker cabinets. They can be very simple and easy to build if approached the right way.
Finally, I don’t why you made the comment that “Encouragement is more powerful tool to deliver a message than suppression” if you were referring to me. I would encourage anyone who wants to truly be a DIYer to do so. I don’t believe that I have been suppressing anyone.
So one more time for you and bradleypnw. Just want to make sure that you get the point:
This is a DIYAUDIO forum.
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