Worth reading more than once. One of the best piece sof reseacrh in audio done to date, i’d guess on par with Olson (required reading, not nearly as easy to get thru as Toole). But it limitations, it has holes. And the holes are often not evident until one has amassed a wealth of experience & knowledge.
dave
The problem here in discussing the price/value proposition for DIY vs. commercially built high quality speakers is that many of the people commenting do not have a manufacturing background and do not understand cost structure from factory to store.
The cost for drivers and other materials in quality commercial speakers represent only a small portion of what you are paying for. On top of that is the labor necessary to make and finish the cabinets, to assembly the pieces together, to run tests, to QC the products and make corrections, to package the products and ship them. As a DIYer you have none of those costs.
But what’s even more important than the cost for that labor is not just the basic salaries for those workers. It is marked up, sometimes very extensively with an overhead factor. DIYers have no overhead costs. So while people here like to praise all the engineering and testing and fine tuning that speaker manufactures do to their products that does not come free. You are paying for it and sometimes paying dearly.
Then there is of course the profit that the manufacturers apply on top of all these costs. And it can be substantial.
So now the product has left the factory. There are of course shipping cost and they go largely by size and weight. So a finished speaker product will cost a lot more to ship than a small group of drivers and crossover components.
Next the product typically arrives at a wholesaler’s warehouse where he stocks it and eventually reships it to the retailer. He also applies a markup for his services. Typically about 20%.
Finally the retailer sells it to you, but probably not before adding about 40% for his part.
It will vary from product to product, but the fact remains that you can buy the same level of quality drivers and other component for somewhere between 1/5 to 1/10 of the cost of comparable speakers. It’s because you are doing all of the work building and testing it. And there are no overhead costs, R&D costs, stocking costs, heavy shipping costs, or large profits to someone else.
Now of course there are some markups you are paying on the drivers and other components you have to buy, including the MDF or plywood, but they are small compared to what is included in the final consumer price of a commercial produced speaker.
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Note that those percentages will represent margin not mark-up.
ie $100 marked up 40% is $140. A 40% margin would mean $167.
dave
Yeah, I didn't want to get too complicated here with how to calculate gross margin. It's probably pretty safe to breakdown what you pay at retail for commercially produced speakers as:
Parts Cost 10%
Labor and Overhead 10%
Manufacturer's Profit 20%
Wholesaler Take 20%
Retailer's Take 40%
Those numbers might not be a perfect distribution in every case, but they are fairly typical for consumer goods. I haven't shown shipping costs specifically, but they usually come out of the wholesaler's and retailer's profit.
Here is a comparable statement from Troels Graversen.
"For 2000 US $ you can build a pair of speakers that will compete with some serious high-end commercial speakers at 5-10 times the building cost - that is - if you choose the right combination of drivers and have someone design a proper crossover. Sometimes commercial speakers are priced deliberately high, because we may think that a cheaper product may not be as good as an expensive one."
Check out Troels on this and some other interesting aspects of "How to choose the right DIY project - for your ears" here: CHOICES
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For me the $ approach to a hobby is totally amiss.
But for those who are looking at a DIY build for a $gain: you are definitely talking a kit build. You can always find a commercial offering that is similar to say a kit from Troels G. and do your math. It will depend on how much you can do yourself, what tools you have and how you value your time. For smaller speakers you might be better off going with commercial offerings because of their resale value. If you opt for something big, in a nice finish and expensive the scale will start quickly tipping towards DIY if you intend to keep them.
As far as what I spend my DIY time on: mainly speakers which do not have a commercial counterpart at all, because they are designed to my specific goals. Got my feet wet with Elsinores with an interesting (atypical) application of 4 identical drivers. Then a home-brewed OB multi-amped with small power DIY Pass amps. Then Linkwitz speakers (no commercial counterpart) incl. modding Lx521 to passive to drive it with a tube amp. This year looking at making a mid which combines multiple 10F SS drivers (attribute this to covid mind 😀). The list (features on the side) smaller TL and alike builds just for fun, subs with pro Beyma 12incher back-loaded with a horn, etc. The journey and the experience is what counts (like Troels commented once that he could have bought some very expensive speakers but it would not have been nearly as much fun).
But for those who are looking at a DIY build for a $gain: you are definitely talking a kit build. You can always find a commercial offering that is similar to say a kit from Troels G. and do your math. It will depend on how much you can do yourself, what tools you have and how you value your time. For smaller speakers you might be better off going with commercial offerings because of their resale value. If you opt for something big, in a nice finish and expensive the scale will start quickly tipping towards DIY if you intend to keep them.
As far as what I spend my DIY time on: mainly speakers which do not have a commercial counterpart at all, because they are designed to my specific goals. Got my feet wet with Elsinores with an interesting (atypical) application of 4 identical drivers. Then a home-brewed OB multi-amped with small power DIY Pass amps. Then Linkwitz speakers (no commercial counterpart) incl. modding Lx521 to passive to drive it with a tube amp. This year looking at making a mid which combines multiple 10F SS drivers (attribute this to covid mind 😀). The list (features on the side) smaller TL and alike builds just for fun, subs with pro Beyma 12incher back-loaded with a horn, etc. The journey and the experience is what counts (like Troels commented once that he could have bought some very expensive speakers but it would not have been nearly as much fun).
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Re: that quote in post 159 of DannyR pointing out shortcomings of a Geddes speaker (I have not seen that one before).
Again: There is probably two orders of magnitude difference in the level of discourse on speaker design between anything that Earl may say and what DannyR may put in air (which for the most parts is just some random SPL variation in comparison). There is a difference between people who spent their career around (hemi)anechoic rooms with 2 foot cones on the walls and those who have never set foot in one. I have also spent my career solving N&V issues around the same rooms (problems more complicated than a speaker design); for a few years Earl and I even worked for the same company in buildings across from each other; yet I would never argue the fine points of speaker design with someone who ran a group of PhDs tasked with audio research for a major automotive OEM. It would just be disrespectful to a guy who published peer reviewed papers in AES etc. I leave that to others with comparable experience in the audio field. Some years ago I was at Earl's home for a demo; I listened to him and to his speakers. I never made any of them as they did not suit my design goals.
I mean just look at Danny talking in circles on audiocircle (pun almost intended) just to avoid answering the question on how he designed an OB and chose wing size(s) for it with no polar measurements.
The guy says something like past 40deg off axis everything is cancelling anyways due to OB and the front and the back waves are in-phase. I mean on what planet does that make any sense?
@Alexium: for a starter check out "Conversations with Fitz" on Linkwitzlab website
Again: There is probably two orders of magnitude difference in the level of discourse on speaker design between anything that Earl may say and what DannyR may put in air (which for the most parts is just some random SPL variation in comparison). There is a difference between people who spent their career around (hemi)anechoic rooms with 2 foot cones on the walls and those who have never set foot in one. I have also spent my career solving N&V issues around the same rooms (problems more complicated than a speaker design); for a few years Earl and I even worked for the same company in buildings across from each other; yet I would never argue the fine points of speaker design with someone who ran a group of PhDs tasked with audio research for a major automotive OEM. It would just be disrespectful to a guy who published peer reviewed papers in AES etc. I leave that to others with comparable experience in the audio field. Some years ago I was at Earl's home for a demo; I listened to him and to his speakers. I never made any of them as they did not suit my design goals.
I mean just look at Danny talking in circles on audiocircle (pun almost intended) just to avoid answering the question on how he designed an OB and chose wing size(s) for it with no polar measurements.
The guy says something like past 40deg off axis everything is cancelling anyways due to OB and the front and the back waves are in-phase. I mean on what planet does that make any sense?
@Alexium: for a starter check out "Conversations with Fitz" on Linkwitzlab website
Edgar77’s problem is that he is looking for an easy answer and there isn’t one. Regardless of whether he goes the DIY route or buys a commercial product he is going to have to invest time and effort in understanding the various options and determining which is best suited to his needs. But even then there is no guarantee he will get it right the first time as just about every one here knows. However, from his comments it appears that he is not willing to accept that fact and is looking a quick and easy answer.
Unfortunately he has been given some simplistic and misleading advice by one member who has claimed that if he simply buys a pair of JBL 305/8Ps or JBL 705/8Ps that he will never be able to build DIY speakers better than those. It is, of course, an absurd statement and terrible advice. Particularly since waveguide speakers like those have a completely different sound from normal dynamic speakers and a sound that many people dislike. I’ve never heard the JBL speakers, but I have heard very similar Klipsch waveguide speakers and wouldn’t have them in my house if you gave them to me. I found their sound to be very annoying, and there are other people who here feel the same way.
So I don’t think Edgar77 necessarily needs to stop posting. But in order to reduce his current confusion I think the best advice is that he needs to have some patience, take the time to learn about sound reproduction in a room, and do some experimenting with different types of speakers.
Without that he better make sure he has a very good return policy in place with the store he buys commercial speakers from.
In case nobody told you until now: If this forum would be full of people like you then you can be sure I would stop posting right away.
I will definitely stop reading any post from you - and I am sure you don't care.
I know I have a lot to learn and I am willing to learn. But obviously that is not easy in a forum with lots of different people who have often fundamentally different opinions.
One other "thing" which I find strange that I read here often is that whatever speakers I buy should not only be good, they should be good for me. I understand there are speakers for PA and disco and for home. I am looking for speakers for my home. But it seems some people here, maybe many, also think very good speakers for home are maybe not good for what I want. In which way? If the speakers reproduce the music how it was recorded then that should be fine. I don't want "warm" sound or whatever distortion.
A speaker which reproduces music the way it was recorded is all I want.
"A speaker which reproduces music the way it was recorded is all I want."
Ok, you want to sit in the mixing/mastering room then. That is actually a rather popular approach, but then you need a very well damped listening room as well, to get that direct sound dominance and precise stereo imaging.
What koja and classicalfan are saying, that you must know your goals is very important. Another thing is to know your restraints in how to achieve your goal. Eg. if you live in a rented apartment with concrete walls and small rooms, nearfield setup or good headphones is the hifi way. If you own a house with wooden structure and have a very tolerant wife and grown-up kids, wider range of possibilities are open - even to have several different listening spaces and setups. And a really interesting hobby for the rest of your life experimenting with different options!
Everything is all that I want!
Ok, you want to sit in the mixing/mastering room then. That is actually a rather popular approach, but then you need a very well damped listening room as well, to get that direct sound dominance and precise stereo imaging.
What koja and classicalfan are saying, that you must know your goals is very important. Another thing is to know your restraints in how to achieve your goal. Eg. if you live in a rented apartment with concrete walls and small rooms, nearfield setup or good headphones is the hifi way. If you own a house with wooden structure and have a very tolerant wife and grown-up kids, wider range of possibilities are open - even to have several different listening spaces and setups. And a really interesting hobby for the rest of your life experimenting with different options!
Everything is all that I want!
You need to understand that you are not just hearing the speakers. You are hearing your room. There are many reflections from the walls, the floor, and even the ceiling. So while some of the sound you hear is directly from the speakers themselves, a lot of it is reflected. Sometimes it is reflected multiple times from surface to surface before it finally reaches your ears. And reflected sound is delayed from the direct sound. So what you eventually hear is a complex mixture of the recorded frequencies that make up the music. How your speaker is designed determines how it disperses the sounds. So combining that with your room dimensions, surface reflection properties, speaker locations, and listening position, among other things, determines how it will sound to you. How loud you listen, how much bass you want, and the type of music you listen to are also factors.
Many people here are somewhat perfectionists in what they want to achieve. And so the search for the best, or at least very good, match for their listening pleasure can go on for quite a while. Some build many different sets of speakers in search of that goal, or just because they enjoy trying different options. And there probably is no real ‘best’. Just different types of ‘very good’.
One of the reasons people keep trying different things is due to the fact that often new speakers sound very good initially, but over time the flaws start to become apparent. And then people look for something else that doesn’t have those same flaws. Of course, there is a very good chance with the next speaker they will get new flaws, and after some time want to try yet another speaker.
A lot of this depends on how much of a perfectionist you are. The thing that has triggered all of these comments back to you is your initial comment that said;
“In the moment my idea is to one time build a set of speakers. I don't want to build some speakers now and maybe in a year another better pair and so on.”
It’s an admirable goal, but I think most people here would consider it unrealistic unless you are willing to make a substantial investment of time and effort up front to learn about various types of speakers and how they actually perform in different rooms. And even then there is no guarantee of reaching that goal.
My suggestion if you want to build DIY speakers is to spend time reviewing the various kits on the websites for Meniscus Audio, Madisound, Parts Express, and diysoundgroup. You’re probably not going to find a simple answer pop out at you, but you’ll at least start to see the range of options in terms of performance and price. If none of that resonates with you, then you should probably just buy a commercially produced product and not worry about DIY.
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Thanks for this recommendation. I just downloaded the book and read the table of contents. It seems that book covers it all - or at least many aspects of music reproduction.
Also thank you to all the others for your constructive advice. I listen and try to learn.
Maybe from time to time I have a stupid question or comment. Please forgive my ignorance. I also learned there are no stupid questions. We all start to learn somewhere and make mistakes on the way.
My idea is to learn more before I spend serious money only to learn later that I could have avoided wasting that money.
very much so, this is the only way, for me at least. i have done many attempt to increase the loudspeaker distance but it just does not work for me, it distorts tonal balance and clarity/resolution
Surprisingly given the sheer amount of information available I am not aware of a reliable overview of the important aspects of loudspeaker design. A possible project unless anyone else is aware of one?
I would second the recommendation of Toole's book which is both good and rare in that it includes links to the scientific evidence used to draw his conclusions. This is important because it simplifies checking the evidence when the emphasis in some of his conclusions is not well aligned with the understanding and practises of others. However, in the first edition I possess, he not only treats the loudspeaker largely as a black box but he also largely ignores nonlinear distortion. You will have to look elsewhere for information on designing loudspeakers and nonlinear distortion in loudspeakers.
There are a number of websites created by serious loudspeaker DIY hobbyists who provide discussions and details of their designs and approaches. This is useful and interesting stuff but the authors are nearly all enthusiasts with only an informal, often patchy, sometimes incorrect education in the relevant areas of engineering and science. They aren't reliable sources for the technical/engineering optimum but they can provide enough information and guidance to design and build a speaker with a good technical performance. Although the author dropped the hobby a few years ago, a good site to start for basic speaker design is perhaps zaph audio which contains a fairly high proportion of objective rather than subjective content.
The simplest book for beginners is Speaker Building 201 by Ray Alden. It covers the basics in a very clear understandable way. There you learn about the various components of a speaker, how crossovers work, and the differences between enclosure types.
Toole's book is entirely different and much more advanced. He talks about the overall listening environment and has many examples of listener responses in various test situations.
The two books address entirely different subjects and both are useful, but I would suggest starting with Alden if you want to build your own speakers.
Also, if you have a relatively small to middle size room and listen mainly to vocals or jazz at reasonable sound levels as opposed to a large room listening to Mahler or Tchaikovsky at ear piercing volume, then you might be very happy with a single full range driver. It's much simpler to build and with no crossover needed it has superb performance through the midrange. To learn more go over to the Full Range section of this forum. It might be an easy and relatively inexpensive way to get started.
Toole's book is entirely different and much more advanced. He talks about the overall listening environment and has many examples of listener responses in various test situations.
The two books address entirely different subjects and both are useful, but I would suggest starting with Alden if you want to build your own speakers.
Also, if you have a relatively small to middle size room and listen mainly to vocals or jazz at reasonable sound levels as opposed to a large room listening to Mahler or Tchaikovsky at ear piercing volume, then you might be very happy with a single full range driver. It's much simpler to build and with no crossover needed it has superb performance through the midrange. To learn more go over to the Full Range section of this forum. It might be an easy and relatively inexpensive way to get started.
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one of the most overlooked or misunderstood things is the non-linear nature of the human hearing sensitivity. Here are (again) the Equal Loudness Curves. The important thing to note is that at low (bass) frequencies we at first cannot hear pretty high sound pressure levels (SPL). So air is being pumped across the room and the ear drum is moving, yet the brain is ignoring this completely.
Then at some point the hearing down low kicks in and then one can see that the curves for different perceived levels are crowding there, which means once we start to hear the low frequencies we are very sensitive to changing bass SP levels. This is very interesting and has a few consequences:
a) both the guy recording a track and the guys designing a speaker have to make an assumption for how loud the end consumer will be listening, and
b) the end consumer has the challenge of making bass sound right in a space which can build up standing waves wall-to-wall, floor-to-ceiling, across the corners etc. which the sound engineer did not have when he listened to his monitors (like that JBL mentioned here).
Moreover, it has been long recognized that human hearing uses bass as sort of a baseline even for the perception of the higher frequencies, (so the brain struggles with the challenge of jumping perceived level curves and tries to start from a curve picked down low in frequency and then keep comparing to that).
The problem with the commercial offerings are the industry division on speaker and amplifier manufacturers and the lack of integration with (re)EQ capabilities etc. Then you add a lack of standard for the recording industry and the result is a complete inconsistency. You can hear the same comments posted from the former execs in the industry (they can afford to be honest once retired). Too lazy to look it up on youtube now.
Thus at a minimum I go for a bi-amped system where bass level can be set independently. Adding more capability on top of that is optional and trades off with more system complexity (clearly a thing for an enthusiast).
I also try to stay with Linkwitz philosophy of trying to make the system work in my normal listening spaces rather than build a dedicated listening room (like Earl G. for example has with bass traps, ceiling traps, etc.). I am not that privileged in this regard.
Then at some point the hearing down low kicks in and then one can see that the curves for different perceived levels are crowding there, which means once we start to hear the low frequencies we are very sensitive to changing bass SP levels. This is very interesting and has a few consequences:
a) both the guy recording a track and the guys designing a speaker have to make an assumption for how loud the end consumer will be listening, and
b) the end consumer has the challenge of making bass sound right in a space which can build up standing waves wall-to-wall, floor-to-ceiling, across the corners etc. which the sound engineer did not have when he listened to his monitors (like that JBL mentioned here).
Moreover, it has been long recognized that human hearing uses bass as sort of a baseline even for the perception of the higher frequencies, (so the brain struggles with the challenge of jumping perceived level curves and tries to start from a curve picked down low in frequency and then keep comparing to that).
The problem with the commercial offerings are the industry division on speaker and amplifier manufacturers and the lack of integration with (re)EQ capabilities etc. Then you add a lack of standard for the recording industry and the result is a complete inconsistency. You can hear the same comments posted from the former execs in the industry (they can afford to be honest once retired). Too lazy to look it up on youtube now.
Thus at a minimum I go for a bi-amped system where bass level can be set independently. Adding more capability on top of that is optional and trades off with more system complexity (clearly a thing for an enthusiast).
I also try to stay with Linkwitz philosophy of trying to make the system work in my normal listening spaces rather than build a dedicated listening room (like Earl G. for example has with bass traps, ceiling traps, etc.). I am not that privileged in this regard.
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In that case I think you'd like the JBL 305P Mk II. Read Toole's book while listening to that speaker. It's such an inexpensive speaker that you can't lose. More money gets you speakers that play louder but they aren't better sound quality. Louder is better but you don't need to go straight to expensive speakers right out of the gate.
Pay attention to the inputs on the back of the 305P if you decide to go that way. They don't use traditional consumer inputs. Adapters are inexpensive and easy to find on the internet if you need them.
The other part of Toole's book you'll want to pay close attention to is the low frequency/modal region that he explains (one of the spots where you'll find the Earl Geddes citations). Which is a good reason to wait before buying more expensive speakers if you want to be efficient with your money.
What you're going to find out is that, today, 1) good measurements 2) built and tested by a company with a good reputation = good speakers. Speakers that measure badly can sound good but then you have to do all the hours and hours of personal auditioning/swapping/etc. to find them. I really can't believe people advise anyone to spend their time + money that way when all they want are good speakers. Yet that advice is still common because some people want to project their hobby quirks onto you.
After you read Toole's book and familiarize yourself with good sound quality you might wind up deciding to DIY. Or not. just depends.
