GOTO 6-way TimeAligned Horn System

Good idea to isolate vibration of upperBass driver from the frame:
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hi put some polyurethane foam on hole center springs
 
Congrats on your build.

I've built a Cessaro style clone using Azura horns. Also, I've built large bass horns for US GOTO rep, Ming Su.

I used JBL 2420 drivers plus Faital Pro HF200. The bass units were 18 inch Faital Pro. Horns were 160 Azura with 8 inch Beyma, 340 Azura two inch throat, and 550 Azura for tweeter. I used 8 channel MiniDSP for xovers, and a mix a quality SET amps and SS amps (for bass).

I've also built every version of the tapepd horns from Volvotreter web site, plus a few Bill Fitzmaurice bass horns.

My current rig is Azura 340 with Faital Pro HF200 and Altec 420A 15-inch two way, passive.

Kind regards

Andrew, Sydney
 

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Congrats on your build.

I've built a Cessaro style clone using Azura horns. Also, I've built large bass horns for US GOTO rep, Ming Su.

I used JBL 2420 drivers plus Faital Pro HF200. The bass units were 18 inch Faital Pro. Horns were 160 Azura with 8 inch Beyma, 340 Azura two inch throat, and 550 Azura for tweeter. I used 8 channel MiniDSP for xovers, and a mix a quality SET amps and SS amps (for bass).

I've also built every version of the tapepd horns from Volvotreter web site, plus a few Bill Fitzmaurice bass horns.

My current rig is Azura 340 with Faital Pro HF200 and Altec 420A 15-inch two way, passive.

Kind regards

Andrew, Sydney
Andrew, very interesting!
I'm also using Azura-550 horn with JBL2453. Bigger horns was too expensive to post from Australia to Russia, so bigger horns I use from AutoTech Poland.
Also I like than AutoTech is full LeCleach profile while Azura is partial.
Your experience with bass horns for GOTO was with 15" bass driver or 6" compression ?
And will you suggest to try GOTO 15" driver in volvotreter 20Hz taped horn ?
I use now 18sound and thinking that GOTO might be better, but not sure.
I tried Supravox 15" with external power supply, but it didn't work well in tapped horn.
And if you tried all volvotreter tapped horns, how did you find small one 40hz ?
What driver do you suggest to use in it? I can't find the one suggested by volvotreter.
 
Andrew, very interesting!
I'm also using Azura-550 horn with JBL2453. Bigger horns was too expensive to post from Australia to Russia, so bigger horns I use from AutoTech Poland.
Also I like than AutoTech is full LeCleach profile while Azura is partial.
Your experience with bass horns for GOTO was with 15" bass driver or 6" compression ?
And will you suggest to try GOTO 15" driver in volvotreter 20Hz taped horn ?
I use now 18sound and thinking that GOTO might be better, but not sure.
I tried Supravox 15" with external power supply, but it didn't work well in tapped horn.
And if you tried all volvotreter tapped horns, how did you find small one 40hz ?
What driver do you suggest to use in it? I can't find the one suggested by volvotreter.
The 340 LeCleach is full profile, which is why I like that model.

For the 40 and 30 Hz tapped horns, I used Tang Band 6 inch drivers..

I'm not sure about GOTO for tapped horn. In essence, with the big tapped horn, you only need 20-50Hz....so I'd lean towards a pro driver in that regards. I think you'd want to put the money into GOTO for wider ranges.
 
After all I decided to change 550Hz horn to 1000Hz for JBL2453.
And with new RAAL Lazy Ribbon 9" silver-gold transformer with amorphous core highs are near perfect!
Now 5 ways are connected and only one 270Hz horn is to be placed on top.
I'm waiting for GOTO 505 to compare with JBL2490 for so called Fundamental channel ((c) Romy).
image.png.49fccf974663787d1c0ee218d122d6dc.png
 
Haha.

One more that got frustrated by Romys shizophrenia and embarked here...

Welcome !!

Btw. i was infected by the same virus as yours, until i discovered Beyma 12p80nd/TPL150, and my search came to a abrupt end.

No horns anymore.

But your Goto 146 are mouth watering....

I just think they cannot deliver the weight required for lower bass.

And the speed you hear is just a indicator for the missing hability to deliver lower bass.

Lower bass sounds fatter , i dont think that is a indication of slowness, but inherent of lower bass frequencies.

In my view, you have very directional bass with your 46hz horn, which is not so good for normal room size.

In my experience, best are bass arrays from top to the floor.
 
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Agreed, these kind of horns you have to see all the way down to the throat from the listening position for best overall performance, which in turn requires it be several horn lengths away from its termination [mouth] and even then it's a narrow 'sweet spot', so better overall to have bass arrays with enough drivers to ~ = the terminus's area to get that sense of effortless bass.

GM
 
After experimenting with all GOTO drivers I've decided to stay with them!
So, now 4 ways are as follows:
GOTO SG-146 in big 46Hz horn
GOTO SG-505TT in 270Hz LeCleach
GOTO SG-370DX in 1000Hz LeCleach
GOTO SG-16TT

Plus RAAL and tapped horn.

Very impressive system, congratulations and thanks for sharing. Have you tried other TAD drivers and woofers agains GOTO besides TD-2001?

How would you describe the differences between GOTO and other drivers you have tried in same horns as them?
 
Haha.

One more that got frustrated by Romys shizophrenia and embarked here...

Welcome !!
Hi Angelo!
Romy also told some "good" words about you :)
BTW, were is your website moved ? We lost it and worry about it.

Btw. i was infected by the same virus as yours, until i discovered Beyma 12p80nd/TPL150, and my search came to a abrupt end.

No horns anymore.
No...horns forever for me :)
But I've realized, that it is really difficult to eliminate horns coloration, especially in 1khz+ range. So, short horn is a must for this range.

But your Goto 146 are mouth watering....

I just think they cannot deliver the weight required for lower bass.

And the speed you hear is just a indicator for the missing hability to deliver lower bass.

Lower bass sounds fatter , i dont think that is a indication of slowness, but inherent of lower bass frequencies.

In my view, you have very directional bass with your 46hz horn, which is not so good for normal room size.

In my experience, best are bass arrays from top to the floor.
No...they are able to deliver room shuttering bass...no problem.
And very clean. Not fat kind of bass, but just pure instruments tone in lowest range with all vibrations!
 
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Hi Angelo!
Romy also told some "good" words about you :)
BTW, were is your website moved ? We lost it and worry about it.

Well, my site got infested with spam, and i tired to delete all the spam posts. In the end, i shut it down. I have imho all the pictures saved at my pc, and from time to time i post them at Hornspeaker groups at Facebook.


No...horns forever for me :)
But I've realized, that it is really difficult to eliminate horns coloration, especially in 1khz+ range. So, short horn is a must for this range.

Its not difficult. Its IMPOSSIBLE. You accept it as long as you do not make direct comparisons..... But once you do, things become very evident. Thats why there is no way back, once you hear the TPL. And the holographic image when you use it dipole is the icecream on the cake.

No...they are able to deliver room shuttering bass...no problem.
And very clean. Not fat kind of bass, but just pure instruments tone in lowest range with all vibrations!

I am not saying about room shuttering. I am saying about dispersion and even distribution of bass in the room. I have gone through all this. My basshorn imho is still in play, but added with two Altec 416A in Onken style cabs on top things are on another level...... Bass line array is in my view the way to go, if you are looking for the ultimate bass experience.

So are you not using the 146LD in lower midrange anymore ?

I made recently direct comparison between 12p80nd, and my lower midrange horn with Fane Studio 8m. It took less than 24h, that i moved back to Beyma... LOL.
 
Yes, I agree completely. At this stage I'm only choosing drivers for my taste and looks like I've finally just settled. I still want to try 505 and 570 on place of 555 and 370 on place of JBL2453, but I like what I got now and ready to move to the next stage - crossovering.
Currently I'm using 4th order lowpass at 50Hz for Tapped Horns, 2nd order lowpass for midbass and upperbass big GOTOs and 1st order highpass for them and 1st order for the rest of channels.
I got very good frequency respones, I'm very happy with tonal balance and now I want to measure group delay and check what problems I have.
But I don't know how to solve them. I'm not sure that I can keep celarance of the tone with more complicated crossover. I can't even use attenuator, becase I hear how sound degrades because of it.
What do you suggest to do to carefully time align my system ?

I am hesitant to say anything at all because what you have is so awesome !
But I do have a few thoughts.
You might try using separate amplifiers for each speaker.
This will allow more flexibility in driver choice.
It will be easier to mach sensitivity of various drivers without loss of sound quality.
Then you can add digital time delays and play with various crossover ideas.
afterwords you can reassemble everything if you like to get rid of the digital systems, but it sure makes things easier along the way.
 
Very impressive system, congratulations and thanks for sharing. Have you tried other TAD drivers and woofers agains GOTO besides TD-2001?

How would you describe the differences between GOTO and other drivers you have tried in same horns as them?

Thank you for your warm words :)

Regarding comparison of GOTO-370 and 2001.
As I described in my 1st post, I've tried almost all kind of HF drivers and liked JBL LE85. In direct comparison of this JBL with TAD2001 I preferred JBL. For my taste tone of TAD2001 is not as sweet and delicate as JBL's. BTW, this JBL LE85 is very similar by tonality with GOTO-370. 370+16 is just a bit more resolving than 85, but in general 85 is same great. I can strongly recommend to use this JBL with RAAL on top and this will be highest end. I'm recommending this pair to everyone. Another good example of comparison of JBL with TAD2001 is my experience with complete systems of my friends - one has Cessaro Gamma (TAD2001 or 2002) and another one has Westlake (JBL2426 successor of LE85) and for my taste Westlakes sounds dramatically better than Cessaro.
 
Well, my site got infested with spam, and i tired to delete all the spam posts. In the end, i shut it down. I have imho all the pictures saved at my pc, and from time to time i post them at Hornspeaker groups at Facebook.
Very sad...why not to create new one ?
We, in Russia, worry very much that your site is down.

Its not difficult. Its IMPOSSIBLE. You accept it as long as you do not make direct comparisons..... But once you do, things become very evident. Thats why there is no way back, once you hear the TPL. And the holographic image when you use it dipole is the icecream on the cake.
Have you tried 1000Hz LeCleach ?
It is really great! TPL's sensitivity is too low to use with horn bass.

I am not saying about room shuttering. I am saying about dispersion and even distribution of bass in the room. I have gone through all this. My basshorn imho is still in play, but added with two Altec 416A in Onken style cabs on top things are on another level...... Bass line array is in my view the way to go, if you are looking for the ultimate bass experience.

So are you not using the 146LD in lower midrange anymore ?

I made recently direct comparison between 12p80nd, and my lower midrange horn with Fane Studio 8m. It took less than 24h, that i moved back to Beyma... LOL.
Don't compare 146LD with conventional paper cone drivers like Fane Studio or any other. It is absolutely another fish. I agree, that horn bass with conventional speaker is nothing. I have tried many, including top Supravox with field coil. They sound dull in compare with pure sound of 146LD.
146LD in 46Hz horn is best bass I've ever heard and it is very similar to reality!
I can't explain this with words. I just can repeat, that it is true reproduction of lowest notes of any BSO instruments and grand piano! And this kind of reality and true scale I've never experienced before!

Here is the link to the sound of single left channel of my system.
Speed, purity, tone and scale is really impressive.
It sounds better that original track :)
I feel that I found the sound I looked for.
https://youtu.be/fdjXVMcNE6U
 
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I am hesitant to say anything at all because what you have is so awesome !
But I do have a few thoughts.
You might try using separate amplifiers for each speaker.
This will allow more flexibility in driver choice.
It will be easier to mach sensitivity of various drivers without loss of sound quality.
Then you can add digital time delays and play with various crossover ideas.
afterwords you can reassemble everything if you like to get rid of the digital systems, but it sure makes things easier along the way.

Fortunately, sensitivity of all drivers are matched well except lowest channel (tapped horn), but still I like how it sounds with one amp, even if 20hz is lower level that other channels. May be it is because of quality of my main GM-70 based SET. I don't have another one and don't have perspective to get it at least during one year as it doesn't exist. Manufacturer of this SET promised me to make another one in November 2016, so I can try bi-amp. Tri-amp will take another year :) One amp per year is too slow, but this is my reality :) He is using hand made transformers and capacitors, so it takes time.
And I'm not sure that multi-amping is not destroying integrity. I really don't feel the need of multi-amping.
 
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TPL's sensitivity is too low to use with horn bass.

Not if you go active. I use groundsound active crossover, and very pleased. The TPL has been the biggest improvement in my system, the 12p80nd second. They have really topped the expectations i had in regard of naturalness and dynamics combined. Its the best compromise i have come across. Sometimes the key to success is simplicity. And a two way that covers a wide frequency range has its advantages.

One thing i like more is the combo is less directional than horns. A few weeks back i connected my large midrange horn with Coral M100, and directiveness was immediately observable, and disturbing.

I don't know up to what point a smaller 1khz horn solves the problem. Some germans made direct comparisons between TPL and a 1" drivers, and reported very similar performance.

The TPL is weaker in the treble than a top horn tweeter. Less dynamic and less powerful. For top performance, a super tweeter seems to be indicated. But i dont miss it.

But with the stuff you have, i would probably not search further. Goto is top notch.

Why are you not keeping the 146 in the lower midrange ?
 
Hi SystemMurata

Nice project! I would love to come hear it sometime.

Does your tapped horn's group delay bother you? In that type of horn there is often a radical resonance which delays some fundamental BW so it comes late or rings out beyond its upper harmonics. The DTS-10 is absolutely insane in this regard, see the sealed vs tapped horn waterfall decay here:

Data-Bass

You'll notice the DTS-10 is ringing out over 300msec centered at 57Hz. The TH like the ones designed by Cowen & Volvotreter also have ringing but typically higher up in their bandwidth (since they're low corner is more towards 40hz not 15hz).

I like TH efficiency, but if you look at distortion (in band!) and group delay you'll notice it's coloring the signal. For TH played at home listening levels the distortion will be very very low but given your pursuit of near perfect reproduction I'd think you might be interested in a better solution? Also, as others have said here, step response / time alignment between the drivers is critical for realism in the sound stage.

How far back from the horns is your listening position?

@Angeloitacare Regarding TPL150 & midrange horn coloration. I also have observed this mid range coloration (although not so much in constant directivity / unity style horns)... Do you have any ideas what the ear is actually keying to, what artifact exists in the 1khz range. I assume you've tried le'cleach profiles? and tractrix? and conical/constant directivity?
 
@Angeloitacare Regarding TPL150 & midrange horn coloration. I also have observed this mid range coloration (although not so much in constant directivity / unity style horns)... Do you have any ideas what the ear is actually keying to, what artifact exists in the 1khz range. I assume you've tried le'cleach profiles? and tractrix? and conical/constant directivity?

hi Anthony

i have only done direct comparisons between my large midrange horn channel, and the TPL. I don't know how the outcome would be between the TPL, and a smaller 1khz horn. My suspiction is that no matter what horn profile you try, it will ALWAYS color the sound. A simple test Bruce Edgar made some time ago is easy to repeat. If you put a horn before your mouth, the sound immediately changes. That is such a simple and obvious fact, i don't know why horn theorists do not simply acknoledge this, and rather try to make a round circle become square. Why not simply admit, that is a physical fact that cannot be overcome, and if you are not willing to miss the little dynamics more, you just accept the fact.... A no compromise speaker is not existant, so you chose between one compromise and another. The least compromise gives the best result. The TPL is the most non-fatiguing, natural , and timbre close to the original i have come across, and the measurements confirm the listening experience. It has lower distortion than any compression driver.
 
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