If similar to the LaScala XO his dramatically flattens the impedance, a REALLY good thing if you have a high Rout amplifier (most SETs).
dave
No, I'm not conditioning my statements with the builder having my level of knowledge.
1. You don't need to understand "how" the design works.
2. You only need to build it and achieve a similar objective result.
..and with respect to #2.
My feeling is that there is sufficient information already available to do this. (..w/out having any prior knowledge and looking to SL's website and the "clone's" website).
Again: https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/367299-rate-plans-compared-dear-lx-mini-3.html#post6519897
..and at the same time, (understanding the variable nature of damping to the rear of the upper fullrange driver and the need for equalization)
..that ANY builder will need some form of measurement equipment (computer/sound-card/mic.) to get a good result. So that level of knowledge is required regardless.
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There is no reason not to use the Seas woofer, it is better below about 150 Hz and only THD is marginally higher with this driver above 150 Hz. It is the better driver for only a 2-driver design (no subwoofer and high-pass filter on the midbass). The only problem with the driver is the bellmode resonance at about 5 kHz that results in a 5th order peak around 1 kHz. Given the fact that the design is radial and the low-pass is at 700 Hz with a fairly steep result it shouldn't be a problem.
It is however a LOT more expensive and is easily out-classed (objectively) by several larger diameter drivers. (..and the low-pass filter is low enough to allow for a larger diameter driver.) ..and note that with a larger diameter driver we aren't talking about a physical (loudspeaker) result that is that much larger (..and likely uses 8" sonotube for the pipe), but would certainly require more thought on the builder's part vs. the construction that SL has spec'ed .
Regardless of the midbass driver, the one thing I would caution the builder with is the "fullrange" driver. Having heard this driver it has a certain character that lacks a more developed "3D" image, often described as "thin". It is however quite "clear" sounding. (..and these two subjective characteristics are often at marginal cross-purposes). Best IMO to purchase the miniDSP first (along with the UMIK-1), get familiar with it. THEN proceed to purchasing a single Seas woven poly driver, eq. it in large baffle (foam board) and listen to its character (at low volume due to the eq.). My guess is that (after break-in) there will be a substantive preference for either something like the Peerless OR something like the Seas woven poly even though the equalized result would be very similar .
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This post really bothers me. If you can’t see the value in the plans for the speakers that SL created after spending many, many hours of his time in perfecting the designs, then you simply should move on and do something else.
But to complain about the price and then claim to be some sort of marketing expert in order to support your complaint is a complete waste of your time and everyone else’s here as well.
And in a large sense you are insulting the people here who have already purchased these plans at the prices asked. In essence, you are implying that they have been either stupid or duped by paying too much.
Moreover, I am very trouble by the inference that SL was charging too much for his work. Or that he was ripping people off. Particularly when you look at the body of his work and the incredible contributions he made to this hobby.
So if you want to be a DIY speaker builder, then either do your own designs or be prepared to pay for other peoples’ time, effort, and expertise. You can’t have it both ways.
It’s not up to you to decide what all of that is worth. It’s up to the originator. If you don’t like it, then don’t buy it. But please don’t come here and complain about it.
-as he is the one (potentially) paying, it's absolutely his prerogative to assess its worth and value to him. Really, who else is qualified to make such a decision?
The real problem is that it's a "blind" purchase, are you getting information that's so much better than what SL already provides free? Maybe to him? But really you don't know until you make that purchase. That is the problem here, and only others that have made that purchase can you give you their opinion as some additional information to make that decision, but I've not seen anyone yet give an opinion that compares and contrasts that information relative to SL's free information and from other sources like the "clone" webpage. So far it's been more like "worth it" (..and no mention in relation to anything comparative).
The real problem is that it's a "blind" purchase, are you getting information that's so much better than what SL already provides free? Maybe to him? But really you don't know until you make that purchase. That is the problem here, and only others that have made that purchase can you give you their opinion as some additional information to make that decision, but I've not seen anyone yet give an opinion that compares and contrasts that information relative to SL's free information and from other sources like the "clone" webpage. So far it's been more like "worth it" (..and no mention in relation to anything comparative).
scottjoplin, Absolutely. Typical internet reactions unfortunately.
classicalfan, I am no marketing expert, nor have I have claimed to be. I just shared that I have experience in it and absolutely agree that the IP holder can charge what he/she wants. I’m sorry if what I posted upsets you (well almost 🙂). We’re you the one that flamed me for wanting to give the Crites CO a try?!?
It’s clear that my question was better suited for a more private conversation as it appears to have triggered a response as if if I attacked the inventor himself. Thankfully for me there has been at least one solid post that provided comparable prices. And at the end of the day, I’m still intrigued by the design and may pull the trigger - just not right now.
Apologies to all that I offended (unintentionally).
Z
classicalfan, I am no marketing expert, nor have I have claimed to be. I just shared that I have experience in it and absolutely agree that the IP holder can charge what he/she wants. I’m sorry if what I posted upsets you (well almost 🙂). We’re you the one that flamed me for wanting to give the Crites CO a try?!?
It’s clear that my question was better suited for a more private conversation as it appears to have triggered a response as if if I attacked the inventor himself. Thankfully for me there has been at least one solid post that provided comparable prices. And at the end of the day, I’m still intrigued by the design and may pull the trigger - just not right now.
Apologies to all that I offended (unintentionally).
Z
here I mention what made me pull a trigger on the LX521s and checking more into S.L. design approach. It was J.Gerhard (who designed some $80k Euro speakers) visiting S.L. at home:\
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/367119-troels-shortlist-advice-opinions-please-13.html#post6520045
I still have the LXMinis and will always keep them. They are absolutely special for the footprint they take, and their looks never fail to invite comments from visitors 😉. However, I find them lacking in the midbass, at least in my space, and they absolutely benefit from adding a subwoofer (I use a single Beyma Sub12 DIY design placed in corner; the room is irregular shape opening to other spaces with no standing waves whatsoever so easy to get a good bass in).
I wish I had more time to make a version with Visaton AL200 atop a cylindrical box of a lower height (to get the proper dispersion at listening height out of a slightly deeper cone) and with SS 10F/4424 on top. I think it would have been an improvement worthy of the LXMini design. Actually I know it would because a few years back I made a mock up version with AL200 and Seas Mu and listened to it, and then I listened to AL200/SS10F combo in my OBs. But too many ideas and too little time/money.
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/367119-troels-shortlist-advice-opinions-please-13.html#post6520045
I still have the LXMinis and will always keep them. They are absolutely special for the footprint they take, and their looks never fail to invite comments from visitors 😉. However, I find them lacking in the midbass, at least in my space, and they absolutely benefit from adding a subwoofer (I use a single Beyma Sub12 DIY design placed in corner; the room is irregular shape opening to other spaces with no standing waves whatsoever so easy to get a good bass in).
I wish I had more time to make a version with Visaton AL200 atop a cylindrical box of a lower height (to get the proper dispersion at listening height out of a slightly deeper cone) and with SS 10F/4424 on top. I think it would have been an improvement worthy of the LXMini design. Actually I know it would because a few years back I made a mock up version with AL200 and Seas Mu and listened to it, and then I listened to AL200/SS10F combo in my OBs. But too many ideas and too little time/money.
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Truly, I am not worthy. I am a novice and trying to gain knowledge, which from what I’ve seen on here and elsewhere is quite remarkable - I’ve a long way to go. And perhaps I’ve misinterpreted DIY to include (hopeful) beginners like me and not only the second (third/fourth...) coming of James Lansing, Henry Kloss or Sigfried Linkwitz.
I am impressed by the Linkwitz faithful (perhaps not as much by their sensitivity...). And I hope to be able to audition a set (of any variety) one day soon.
I do not appreciate knock-offs as I appreciate IP. I would say something about my experience in this regard but fear that would be mistaken as a statement of expertise....
But I have also participated and witnessed how something priced appropriately gained more for the IP holder than if not (either direction). That has also influenced my thoughts.
At the end of the day, $160 (to get started) isn’t much in the grand scheme of things but I should’ve started with a more appropriate starter kit (assembly required) before jumping into the deep(-er) end. I think had this discussion occurred in person, my question wouldn’t have come across as an attempt to denigrate what a good man set forth. There’s only so much you can try to capture in text, without the aid of visual cues to go along with it.
Thanks,
Z
I am impressed by the Linkwitz faithful (perhaps not as much by their sensitivity...). And I hope to be able to audition a set (of any variety) one day soon.
I do not appreciate knock-offs as I appreciate IP. I would say something about my experience in this regard but fear that would be mistaken as a statement of expertise....
But I have also participated and witnessed how something priced appropriately gained more for the IP holder than if not (either direction). That has also influenced my thoughts.
At the end of the day, $160 (to get started) isn’t much in the grand scheme of things but I should’ve started with a more appropriate starter kit (assembly required) before jumping into the deep(-er) end. I think had this discussion occurred in person, my question wouldn’t have come across as an attempt to denigrate what a good man set forth. There’s only so much you can try to capture in text, without the aid of visual cues to go along with it.
Thanks,
Z
I will be honest here and I feel this should be shared with the people new to this field more often:
The brain perception of sound is very morphable. If given time in a certain sound field it can adjust to a lot of differences and may even grow "to like it". The industry figured that out a long time ago and stopped investing into an average listener, (that is why all power jfets and SITs made for audio amplifier applications back in the 80's by Toshiba, Sony, etc have been discontinued).
in the last 20 years a lot has been figured out and a lot of incredible performance can be designed for. However, once you get into speakers that can resolve a lot of detail, and then into exotics (like dipoles etc.) with different dispersion patterns, you run into the problem of the recording studios not keeping up with your home system; So you end up enjoying the music reproduction on certain material and growing frustrated with a lot of other material that is out there. On the older material it can get outright ridiculous because occasionally you get to hear a musician being squirmish in their chair, someone opening the door in the back of the studio and whispering, or just the chested singer tapping the mic on her bosom, ... That is why S.L. spent his last years advocating for more education for the recording engineers in re: to the mic placement and sound mixing.
So having a run-of-the-mill design with conventional XOver points, with some good drivers (like any number of speakers from Troels G, Jeff B, Zaph, P.Carmody at. al.) and getting their placement right in your home may be all you need to be happy. There is no right or wrong in speaker design. It is all entertainment after all.
The brain perception of sound is very morphable. If given time in a certain sound field it can adjust to a lot of differences and may even grow "to like it". The industry figured that out a long time ago and stopped investing into an average listener, (that is why all power jfets and SITs made for audio amplifier applications back in the 80's by Toshiba, Sony, etc have been discontinued).
in the last 20 years a lot has been figured out and a lot of incredible performance can be designed for. However, once you get into speakers that can resolve a lot of detail, and then into exotics (like dipoles etc.) with different dispersion patterns, you run into the problem of the recording studios not keeping up with your home system; So you end up enjoying the music reproduction on certain material and growing frustrated with a lot of other material that is out there. On the older material it can get outright ridiculous because occasionally you get to hear a musician being squirmish in their chair, someone opening the door in the back of the studio and whispering, or just the chested singer tapping the mic on her bosom, ... That is why S.L. spent his last years advocating for more education for the recording engineers in re: to the mic placement and sound mixing.
So having a run-of-the-mill design with conventional XOver points, with some good drivers (like any number of speakers from Troels G, Jeff B, Zaph, P.Carmody at. al.) and getting their placement right in your home may be all you need to be happy. There is no right or wrong in speaker design. It is all entertainment after all.
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"The brain perception of sound is very morphable. If given time in a certain sound field it can adjust to a lot of differences and may even grow "to like it"."
The other side of the coin is that a change is often perceived as an improvement
The other side of the coin is that a change is often perceived as an improvement
Maybe if you actually audition the LXmini +2 system your value metric might change a bit?
It seems to me your query is rhetorical until you do that.
I've been pretty intimately involved with the Linkwitz projects for many years now, but I can still appreciate the differing views on this.
There are numerous options....which many DIY'ers have explored previously.
I don't know that your question is answerable by anybody but yourself. 🙂
Cheers,
Dave.
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..see, this deviates into a bit different question:
Is the design worth building?
That's a tough one.
Certainly the LXmini on it's own is worth it (relative to other loudspeaker designs with similar constraints) IF you need smaller loudspeakers AND you need to place them close to a rear wall (..or with only one near a side-wall).
The problem then is the DIPOLE subwoofers: which are NOT a good idea in relation to the above requirements.
So the LXmini + 2 is questionable IF you ALSO need to place the subwoofers near a ("front"/"rear") wall (..as opposed to moving them out and then correcting for the delay). In fact, the very best bass you can achieve is dipole nearfield with the null in a correct orientation relative to the listener (..something that SL to my knowledge never fully attempted). SO, if you can place them on either side of your listening position with the null "just right" and with proper time delay, you are actually getting a superior result.
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Absolutely Dave. I didn’t intend this to be a “which oil is best” thread...sorry, motorcycle related. Perhaps the equivalent here is “which capacitor is best” or speaker wire.
The up front fee for plans are part of the project and just another factor. A sensitive one evidently. Perhaps I’m just in the ‘DIY-modify” phase and not the “DIY-design-build-test-repeat” phase yet (if ever).
But my bigger issue will likely be trying to find a good room for my 2 channel enjoyment in the next house. This was one of the Achilles’ Heels for the corner horns: it would seem most houses built in the last 30 years was specifically done without adequate adjacent corners (on purpose...it’s a conspiracy I say).
In the meantime, I will endeavor to listen to a pair if the opportunity occurs, along with other options as well. And who knows, perhaps I’ll get offended one day too 😉
The up front fee for plans are part of the project and just another factor. A sensitive one evidently. Perhaps I’m just in the ‘DIY-modify” phase and not the “DIY-design-build-test-repeat” phase yet (if ever).
But my bigger issue will likely be trying to find a good room for my 2 channel enjoyment in the next house. This was one of the Achilles’ Heels for the corner horns: it would seem most houses built in the last 30 years was specifically done without adequate adjacent corners (on purpose...it’s a conspiracy I say).
In the meantime, I will endeavor to listen to a pair if the opportunity occurs, along with other options as well. And who knows, perhaps I’ll get offended one day too 😉
There are also many who recommend Klipsch due to their high efficiency (all too often very ioptimistic on the data sheet) for small high Rout SE amplifers, but the speake impedance is (almost) universally REALLY bad for such an amp. I would suggest that with such an amp, and a set of Klipsch, an XO, like the Crites, which flattens the impedance would be essential for proper system matchig.
Disclaimer: i have heard many Klipsch. Haven’t liked any of them. The early Heresys i had were really bad.
dave
Having helped in the design of a number of horns that use walls or corners to extend the horn. Most rooms do not have a corner so they are more optimized for just a wall.
dave
I don't know why anyone got up in arms with the original question. Linkwitz obviously dropped the ball for whatever reason because Earl Geddes had already worked out multi-subs by the time Linkwitz made the LXminis.
Further, Juha Backman worked out the value of dipole subs vs traditional in a 2003 paper. Again, preceding Linkwitz's dipole subs used in the kit. Low-frequency Polar Pattern Control for Improved In-room Response
I think the value question isn't measured by the instruction cost alone but the total cost of the completed system. It looks like total cost is $160 + $1,900 in drivers and the MiniDSP.
Can you spend $2,000 and get better speakers that also permit near boundary placement? Yes, I think you could buy a pair of JBL 705Ps that would perform better and take up a lot less space.
If you eliminate the subs your cost drops to $105 + $400 in drivers. Can you do better for $500? I don't know, I'd like to hear the LXminis up against the JBL 305Ps. The LXminis alone are probably worth it but it's not a slam dunk.
Further, Juha Backman worked out the value of dipole subs vs traditional in a 2003 paper. Again, preceding Linkwitz's dipole subs used in the kit. Low-frequency Polar Pattern Control for Improved In-room Response
I think the value question isn't measured by the instruction cost alone but the total cost of the completed system. It looks like total cost is $160 + $1,900 in drivers and the MiniDSP.
Can you spend $2,000 and get better speakers that also permit near boundary placement? Yes, I think you could buy a pair of JBL 705Ps that would perform better and take up a lot less space.
If you eliminate the subs your cost drops to $105 + $400 in drivers. Can you do better for $500? I don't know, I'd like to hear the LXminis up against the JBL 305Ps. The LXminis alone are probably worth it but it's not a slam dunk.
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That is a fairly good metric. We similarily charge more for the plans for pricier drivers, not only because they are pricier, but because not as many will step up for the pricier drivers and it becomes less likely that the whole cost of the plans development is eventually covered.
At the $200/hr suggested above, some of our plansets have $1,000s of time into them.
dave
I would suggest that Poplar might just fit that statement. And cost a whole lot less than $2k.
dave