..I'm assuming a miniDSP implementation with a typical UMIK-1 microphone, which I don't think is an unreasonable assumption.
The basic physical construction is again as mentioned.
-given that, I think you can quite easily replicated (and potential improve upon) the performance that the LXmini provides.
1) But is it a better design? It basically appears to be an attempt to copy an original, with not nearly the same amount of design understanding/implementation of the original.
2) The RS150 has about 1/3 less Sd and xmax than the Seas. I'm not seeing how the RS can match the required performance to be better than the actual LXmini?
Scott, this is guessing on my behalf, yes.
But as much as I'd like to think that the clone sounds at least half as good as it's documented I doubt that anybody has SL's experience and puts half as much thought into the design. The placement of the drivers and resulting radiation pattern is quite a thing in this design.
Don't think anybody could easily outdo SL in experience in these kind of designs. He's done that for a good part of his life as you know. (Pluto etc)
And it's not only the drivers that make a good design.
Did you hear the clone and compared to the lxmini, or why do you say I'm wrong?
I listened to LX521 once, its an amazing speaker that i will never be allowed to put in my home. the WAF factor isn't there -as one would expect for a speaker that is uncompromised. But i thoroughly enjoyed listening to the lx521, what a great speaker!
I consider the fee for the lx521 to be fair given the value and the effort that went into that design. I would more than likely feel the same for lxmini if its design is what accomplished what you're seeking.
I consider the fee for the lx521 to be fair given the value and the effort that went into that design. I would more than likely feel the same for lxmini if its design is what accomplished what you're seeking.
I tend to prefer originals or I should say I tend to NOT prefer clones just for saving a buck. But my point is the fees for plans (and the extra stuff, which certainly helps as noted a couple pages back) could be higher and the emotional arguments offered this far could remain as they are.
Having been in Sales and Marketing for nearly 30 years, I deal with market based price model daily. Some argue for a skewed price point that doesn’t come near the reasonably supported $/benefit line. It could be greed. It could be a poor cost basis. Or just pricing made up without consideration of what the market expects. This was more where I was going: ~20% entrance charge. For site unseen and unheard, for me it gave me pause.
Put another way, selling one item at 90% profit (margin) versus 100 of them at 50% profit (margin) and see who has the most profit (dollars) NET at the end of the day.
Z
Having been in Sales and Marketing for nearly 30 years, I deal with market based price model daily. Some argue for a skewed price point that doesn’t come near the reasonably supported $/benefit line. It could be greed. It could be a poor cost basis. Or just pricing made up without consideration of what the market expects. This was more where I was going: ~20% entrance charge. For site unseen and unheard, for me it gave me pause.
Put another way, selling one item at 90% profit (margin) versus 100 of them at 50% profit (margin) and see who has the most profit (dollars) NET at the end of the day.
Z
Yes. His time, brains, and experience is worth it. But is it worth it for you?
On the face of it the mini is a simple design. But i expect that getting the plans will save you more than enuff not having to work thru the details again. Althou i expect the LXmini thread here already covers much of that & more.
For comparison, and for the record, plans, and plansets from Scott & i range from free to £50 GBP. Sets more, custom designs mre (at least for the first guy). Bob Brines sold his plans for $25 USD.
dave
One can say that about almost any speaker. Especially considering that multiple woofers in places other than where your mains are, are needed to help tame room resonances.
A 5” in a (probably) undersized TL can get to say 50-60 Hz comfortable (very driver dependent) and will typically have more limited air movement capability than a largwr woofer.
dave
The clone is a better result because the dispersion pattern is far more uniform and non-linear distortion is overall lower from the midrange-up. As far as what the clone's designer "does or does not know" - it doesn't really matter, what matter's are the results. The same is true for someone else trying to DIY it.
The Dayton is not as good with respect to bass performance, but then again the *Seas midbass driver isn't that much better and neither design is particularly good in this respect. (..this is why I mentioned that the Pluto was better with the subwoofers - more specifically because of the low-pass filter on the midbass drivers limiting excursion.) Again though, neither design is particularly good without a high-pass filter limiting excursion. (..it gives more "mud" than "detail" at lower freq.s). Below about 300 Hz (regardless of the filter & subwoofer) the LX521 is MUCH better sounding.
*note: the Seas will play louder, but not much louder.
I've not heard that specific clone, though I've done similar (..and well before SL).
I'm certainly not dismissing the design (though again, I think it's inferior to the Pluto overall), rather I'm saying it's not that difficult to achieve when looking at SL's information and particularly the "clone" websites information.
In fact that's my whole point here: with the information available it's not difficult to do at least as well and shouldn't require any additional equipment (..that shouldn't haven't been already purchased to complete the design). You've got the information you need to do it, and with very little additional complexity (vs. purchasing plans).
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I don't think of it so much like this (at the cost as advertised), rather what are you getting (from the plans) that you don't already have?
And of course the knowledge of how to use them to get to the end goal. Just because YOU understand how they work and the compromises doesn't mean everybody does. And the amount of learning to get there from a standing start makes the entry price cheap.
So you are saying that something you have only seen in a picture and not heard is better?
Again as you are not the target market you miss the fact that a lot of people have neither the knowledge nor time/inclination to get the knowledge. For them the cost of the plans is low in the grand scheme of things. Sure anyone can stick a small midwoofer in a plastic pipe and dangle a full range above it, but will it sound good?
Sometimes the clone can sound better than the original. BTW I built, not a clone but similar configuration to the LXMini but with many modifications eg. different drivers, cabinets, mounting the drivers, etc. I can do that because I own sound measuring instruments. My configuration turns up to sound very good, btw I built many speakers before, I know good sound.
The Full Range driver from LXC - cdenneler sounds very good and recommended by a few knowledgeable users.
Thanks for the reply. Bass performance is indeed where the LXmini is deficient (obviously, since small woofers can only go so far), so when a smaller woofer with less xmax was possibly superior in this design that triggered my concern. I would also have to see the test results being used to claim the RS150 is superior over the Seas in the other areas, are indeed accurate.
I will likely stick with the Seas woofer; and use the proven, cost effective LXmini+ subwoofer configuration if and when I get to this project (I have several in the queue 🙂 ). Not all of us have rooms that support the 521.
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As for the price: I cannot find a place to start so I will just say it: it is A GIFT from the late S.L. I have parts all over my shop from my own journey of audiophool self-discovery that dwarf the cost of that kit all together. Once you have gotten up at night to spend early Sunday morning (to avoid background traffic noise) taking microphone measurements out in the driveway while bitching at birds and wind rustling leaves, and repeating measurements because of someone's dog barking in distance, you will start to appreciate the work that goes into a speaker design; let alone a one-of-a-kind design from a life long veteran like S.L.
I have both the LXMinis and the LX521s. The (sub)bass units you can substitute something else for. The bass is all a function of your listening space and their placement. I never bothered with SL's dipole bass because I already had other successful bass solutions. This is not to say that these speakers will be the Holy Grail for you and will meet all your expectations.
Madisound seems to be selling miniDSP 4x10Hd at a discounted price if purchased with the LXMini kit which should already offset this fee. At least that was the case when I just recently was checking into buying another unit.
Btw: If I am developing a passive XOver going back and forth between measurements, recalculating and reordering parts: I can easily blow a $100 on shipping cost.
I have both the LXMinis and the LX521s. The (sub)bass units you can substitute something else for. The bass is all a function of your listening space and their placement. I never bothered with SL's dipole bass because I already had other successful bass solutions. This is not to say that these speakers will be the Holy Grail for you and will meet all your expectations.
Madisound seems to be selling miniDSP 4x10Hd at a discounted price if purchased with the LXMini kit which should already offset this fee. At least that was the case when I just recently was checking into buying another unit.
Btw: If I am developing a passive XOver going back and forth between measurements, recalculating and reordering parts: I can easily blow a $100 on shipping cost.
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Only now did I see OP's comment about "the cost basis, the market, the volumes etc": you are in a WRONG place here. There is no market that can pay ANY of the effort/time and expense that the true hobbyists (S.L. included) have and are putting into the speakers, amplifiers, trips to audio shows or different builders' homes, etc. We are all here blowing money we make in our day jobs and the graces like Pass and S.L are (have) just showered everyone with free gifts. If you do not get that, you should turn to your local high-end audio store where they can tell you everything about the market and the value they are selling. I have about six pairs of speakers at home that can embarrass most of the speakers at the store but have little resale value because they are non-branded DIY designs. You are either into DIY or not. It is a hobby and not a value proposal.
In diy most of the cost to the user is for parts. In commercial equipment most of the cost to the end user is profit,
while the mfr parts cost is roughly 20% of the selling price. Some direct to user sales can have a higher parts cost.
while the mfr parts cost is roughly 20% of the selling price. Some direct to user sales can have a higher parts cost.
Depends. The right woofer that size in Frugel-Horn XL, is something like 25 Hz F10, and with the significant bass gain play surprisingly loud or such a small woofer.
We get 35 Hz F10 in a well designed ML-TL for the Silver Flute W14 — we typically use 2 thou.
dave
koja, with that argument the plans could be $1,000 or more. Right.
Funny thing is on another site I was inquiring about modifying my K-horns with Crites crossover (not DIY other than the mods required to adapt it). Someone posted that they couldn’t understand why someone felt compelled to modify a good speaker.
Perhaps I should find a “make improvements site” 😀) Damned if you do, damned if you don’t I guess....
Z
Funny thing is on another site I was inquiring about modifying my K-horns with Crites crossover (not DIY other than the mods required to adapt it). Someone posted that they couldn’t understand why someone felt compelled to modify a good speaker.
Perhaps I should find a “make improvements site” 😀) Damned if you do, damned if you don’t I guess....
Z
If I understand the plans correctly, not worth it.
The $160 plans advise you to spend $1,100 on subwoofer drivers arranged in an open baffle. Instead, buy the LXmini plans for $105 and build traditional subs for a lot less money.
any fee charged is probably for maintaining a website. Nothing is really for sale here but rather "for share". LX521 got its name for the date on which S.L. cut that minimalist baffle that gave him constant dipole dispersion through the XOover. I can only imagine how many baffles he cut and measured before that.
When amateur speaker builders buy parts retail they have no "cost base" to begin with if amortizing the cost was to be considered. I am sure that 40 years ago Siegfried could have made a lot more money doing overtime in his job function at HP than designing speakers at home. Similar goes for Jeff Bagby spending time writing PCD software instead of putting more hours at the transmission plant. Everyone here who does not buy router bits to waste on experimenting is just benefiting all the time. So the kit you mention could not only be a $1,000, but it could be not available at all if there was not for someone's good will to share it.
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