Getting lost in research, Need some guidance on what to do with a pair of Alpine 10"s
Greetings! First post here. I have been delving deeper into the world of diy audio, and I'm stuck in an area of analysis paralysis and was hoping that you fine folks could help me make some sense of this rabbit hole I have spent too much time in 😀 I'm a total noob, so bear with me.
Here's the situation:
I started construction on these LXC lxmini clones outlined here:
LXC - cdenneler
I'm still waiting on the 3.5" drivers to come in, and I'm using the dayton dsp-408 to dsp instead of the minDSP
I have put together the rest of them though and gave a listen just with the 6" dayton drivers, and I must say just like that they are pretty nice, missing a bit of high end, and a bit of low end though, as yet I have not applied the dsp (waiting on the dongle which is also backordered so I can use my smartphone to control it, since I don't have a windows machine)
I have the extra channels on the dsp, and a pair of 10" alpine SWE-1043 subwoofers laying around so I figured I could add them to the mix to support more of the lower end bass.
I have attached the parameters of the subwoofers
I listen to a lot of more electronic music but pretty dynamic stuff, so I'm more into getting accurate reproduction of the music, in my mind a fast kick should not have added boom from the subs that isn't there in the recording, and long bass sweep should be undistorted and uncolored by the subs as much as possible.
I live in a pretty old house that rattles a lot too so dealing with that is an issue. I like the idea of open baffle not exciting the room modes as much, thus I have been lead down the dipole/ob rabbit hole, and I'm getting very confused. I don't know if these subs will sound ok like that. I have looked at linkwitz lxmini + subs and the lxstudio, I like the look of his m frame subs? but I don't at the moment have 4 subs. while I will probably upgrade to better stuff in the future I don't have the funds at the moment, while suggestions in the upgrade arena are welcome, I'm trying to get the best out of what I currently have right now, so currently that's more the type of advice I'm looking for
I was thinking I would put a crossover somewhere in the 100hz - 150hz range and let the alpines handle everything below that
I have googled a lot at u frames, h frames, slot loaded open baffle, and ripole type configurations.
I like the idea of ripole woofers, they look neat, and from what i understand the slot loading could take my subs down from 29db to 19db. This is exciting. from all the information I have gathered though they are wildly inefficient, and there are some definite haters out there that have likened them unto a "do nothing" machine. I have yet to see any real measurements of them done as to their performance and how inefficient they are so i can figure out what kinda spl they are going to be capable of with the power handling ability of these particular subwoofers.
I'm interested in maybe looking in the direction of putting each sub in it's own h frame or u frame, and sizing the frame about the same size as the recommended sealed box enclosure, that way if I hate it, I can just cover up the backs and use them as sealed boxes. I could also try "slot loading" the back to see what kind of effect this will have on the frequency response.
maybe I'm just crazy to try doing a dipole configuration with these subs and they won't deliver the authoritative bass I'm looking for and I need to just go another direction in general. maybe a throat loaded horn of some kind? I'd like to avoid that if possible, my technological ability to model them is hindered by not having a windows pc, and my woodworking skills might also be lacking enough to tackle that successfully, and I lack the materials to do that in keeping with the "working with what I have laying around at the moment" style I'm currently trying to design for.
Thoughts? Ideas? Tell me I'm dumb and these subs are garbage? Thanks for taking a look!
Greetings! First post here. I have been delving deeper into the world of diy audio, and I'm stuck in an area of analysis paralysis and was hoping that you fine folks could help me make some sense of this rabbit hole I have spent too much time in 😀 I'm a total noob, so bear with me.
Here's the situation:
I started construction on these LXC lxmini clones outlined here:
LXC - cdenneler
I'm still waiting on the 3.5" drivers to come in, and I'm using the dayton dsp-408 to dsp instead of the minDSP
I have put together the rest of them though and gave a listen just with the 6" dayton drivers, and I must say just like that they are pretty nice, missing a bit of high end, and a bit of low end though, as yet I have not applied the dsp (waiting on the dongle which is also backordered so I can use my smartphone to control it, since I don't have a windows machine)
I have the extra channels on the dsp, and a pair of 10" alpine SWE-1043 subwoofers laying around so I figured I could add them to the mix to support more of the lower end bass.
I have attached the parameters of the subwoofers
I listen to a lot of more electronic music but pretty dynamic stuff, so I'm more into getting accurate reproduction of the music, in my mind a fast kick should not have added boom from the subs that isn't there in the recording, and long bass sweep should be undistorted and uncolored by the subs as much as possible.
I live in a pretty old house that rattles a lot too so dealing with that is an issue. I like the idea of open baffle not exciting the room modes as much, thus I have been lead down the dipole/ob rabbit hole, and I'm getting very confused. I don't know if these subs will sound ok like that. I have looked at linkwitz lxmini + subs and the lxstudio, I like the look of his m frame subs? but I don't at the moment have 4 subs. while I will probably upgrade to better stuff in the future I don't have the funds at the moment, while suggestions in the upgrade arena are welcome, I'm trying to get the best out of what I currently have right now, so currently that's more the type of advice I'm looking for
I was thinking I would put a crossover somewhere in the 100hz - 150hz range and let the alpines handle everything below that
I have googled a lot at u frames, h frames, slot loaded open baffle, and ripole type configurations.
I like the idea of ripole woofers, they look neat, and from what i understand the slot loading could take my subs down from 29db to 19db. This is exciting. from all the information I have gathered though they are wildly inefficient, and there are some definite haters out there that have likened them unto a "do nothing" machine. I have yet to see any real measurements of them done as to their performance and how inefficient they are so i can figure out what kinda spl they are going to be capable of with the power handling ability of these particular subwoofers.
I'm interested in maybe looking in the direction of putting each sub in it's own h frame or u frame, and sizing the frame about the same size as the recommended sealed box enclosure, that way if I hate it, I can just cover up the backs and use them as sealed boxes. I could also try "slot loading" the back to see what kind of effect this will have on the frequency response.
maybe I'm just crazy to try doing a dipole configuration with these subs and they won't deliver the authoritative bass I'm looking for and I need to just go another direction in general. maybe a throat loaded horn of some kind? I'd like to avoid that if possible, my technological ability to model them is hindered by not having a windows pc, and my woodworking skills might also be lacking enough to tackle that successfully, and I lack the materials to do that in keeping with the "working with what I have laying around at the moment" style I'm currently trying to design for.
Thoughts? Ideas? Tell me I'm dumb and these subs are garbage? Thanks for taking a look!
Attachments
Hello,
I honestly don't think that a pair of 10" drivers in OB would be enough for electronic music. Have a look at the Beethoven Grande for an example of a dipole sub setup.
Probably ported or tapped horns / BP for the pair of 10's. Depends on room size and how loud you want to listen. FWIW my room is 20'x10' and I'm using 4x12" sealed subs and they are 'ok'. I miss my old horn subs 😀
Cheers,
Rob.
I honestly don't think that a pair of 10" drivers in OB would be enough for electronic music. Have a look at the Beethoven Grande for an example of a dipole sub setup.
Probably ported or tapped horns / BP for the pair of 10's. Depends on room size and how loud you want to listen. FWIW my room is 20'x10' and I'm using 4x12" sealed subs and they are 'ok'. I miss my old horn subs 😀
Cheers,
Rob.
Well, I gotta think adding the 10"s in, in some kinda way, will not hurt, I mean they are gonna move more air than the pair of 6"s, so I think doing something will be beneficial, I'm just asking I guess as to what the most beneficial thing will be. I'm not trying to beat spl records or anything, but I would like a balanced presence from the low end, these 6"s slowly roll off starting around 100hz so a little boost past that and some extention below 50hz would be nice, the 6"s and 10"s have similar efficiency so idk, i'd think they would do something beneficial. it's not going to be like an opus or a funktion1 in my house or anything but they gotta be better than nothing right?
I'm well aware of the "overthinking" aspect of, just what do I wanna do?, part of it. It can be supremely paralyzing.
Simplify things & build a square sealed one cubic foot internal volume enclosure out of one-inch MDF, full filled stuffing, offset the driver in both X and Y axis.
The very first time I saw the Volkswoofer in 1980, I was astounded by the output & truly miniature size. You can replicate this easily these days with your Alpines, especially with the power of DSP.
"Just do it".
Once built, your high 100 hz. crossover will have subwoofer placement highly important as the crossover frequencies near 100 hz. will be directional...try every single location near to your mains, this will be critical.
---------------------------------------------------------------------Rick...........
Simplify things & build a square sealed one cubic foot internal volume enclosure out of one-inch MDF, full filled stuffing, offset the driver in both X and Y axis.
The very first time I saw the Volkswoofer in 1980, I was astounded by the output & truly miniature size. You can replicate this easily these days with your Alpines, especially with the power of DSP.
"Just do it".
Once built, your high 100 hz. crossover will have subwoofer placement highly important as the crossover frequencies near 100 hz. will be directional...try every single location near to your mains, this will be critical.
---------------------------------------------------------------------Rick...........
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Right?
Not sure I get your meaning here? Mount it a little off center in the box? What does this accomplish?
I'm not sure that with 10"s it's considered a high crossover point, or that I will get any directionality. A random person on the internet said that the math for finding the frequency where dispersion becomes omnidirectional is 6771.65/diameter(in).
So for this sub 6771.65/10 = 677.165hz
So with a 24db/octave crossover I should be down 48db or so by 400hz, which is right around where the noise floor in my house is, so idk if I will get much directional dispursion based on that math...
Maybe that math is bogus, but he did sound like he knew what he was talking about.
I think Richard meant that you could hear the location of the sub at 100Hz rather than the dispersion pattern of the woofer. Ie the sound is locatable at 100Hz.
Ah, I see, would it make sense then to mount them on some kind of pedestal to make them more elevated to the listening position?
If you follow the 1/4 wavelength rule then approx. 2.75 feet or closer to mains is good enough.
I'd be more concerned about the subs producing distortion / harmonics above the crossover frequency than how close they are as that will make their location much more noticeable.
I'd be more concerned about the subs producing distortion / harmonics above the crossover frequency than how close they are as that will make their location much more noticeable.
+1 The Alpine is a car subwoofer designed for small sealed or BR enclosures. I currently use a 10” Rockford Fosgate car subwoofer in a one (maybe slightly bigger) cubic enclosure with great results. I run it bi-amped with a LP filter and FR speakers as mains.
Could you explain this like I'm 5 or something? i've researched it a little bit but still feeling lost. people like to go on really long winded explanations and my eyes glaze over
What would you recommend as good methods of detecting/reducing/dealing with this problem? I have a measurement mic and REW if that helps
Obscure,
Some of the concepts might be a stretch for a 5 year old, you need to count past the fingers on one hand :^)
The wavelength is determined by the speed of sound (1130 feet per second) divided by frequency.
When two sources are within 1/4 wavelength (wavelength divided by 4), the two add constructively regardless of listening axis (direction), they behave as a single source.
1130/100=11.3/4=2.825 feet.
Within 2.8 feet, the sub and main speaker crossed at 100 Hz are virtually a single source.
When two sources center to center distance exceeds 1/4 wavelength distance apart and are listened to/measured off axis, the combined output will start to exhibit dips in frequency response due to the time of flight/phase difference between the two sources, as well as time of flight difference from room boundary reflections of the different source locations. Merlijn van Veen's "Phase Wheel" illustrates some of this concept.
Your drivers have low distortion, you can measure their response with REW to confirm.
In sealed boxes they will have more than enough low distortion output down to the 20Hz range to keep up with your mains at levels under those that will make house rattles far more objectionable. They will require less power to achieve their maximum clean output (Xmax) in larger sealed boxes, you may find a larger than "optimum" (one cubic foot) box to be preferable. Since the most accurate sound, rather than maximum output level is your desire, you don't have to consider more efficient larger ported or horn designs, or open baffle designs that probably won't "keep up" at low frequencies with the mains within Xmax limits.
You will also find the room mode response dominates low frequency response, "the 1/4 wavelength" rule may not offer the optimum placement of your subs for even in-room response.
Art
Some of the concepts might be a stretch for a 5 year old, you need to count past the fingers on one hand :^)
The wavelength is determined by the speed of sound (1130 feet per second) divided by frequency.
When two sources are within 1/4 wavelength (wavelength divided by 4), the two add constructively regardless of listening axis (direction), they behave as a single source.
1130/100=11.3/4=2.825 feet.
Within 2.8 feet, the sub and main speaker crossed at 100 Hz are virtually a single source.
When two sources center to center distance exceeds 1/4 wavelength distance apart and are listened to/measured off axis, the combined output will start to exhibit dips in frequency response due to the time of flight/phase difference between the two sources, as well as time of flight difference from room boundary reflections of the different source locations. Merlijn van Veen's "Phase Wheel" illustrates some of this concept.
Your drivers have low distortion, you can measure their response with REW to confirm.
In sealed boxes they will have more than enough low distortion output down to the 20Hz range to keep up with your mains at levels under those that will make house rattles far more objectionable. They will require less power to achieve their maximum clean output (Xmax) in larger sealed boxes, you may find a larger than "optimum" (one cubic foot) box to be preferable. Since the most accurate sound, rather than maximum output level is your desire, you don't have to consider more efficient larger ported or horn designs, or open baffle designs that probably won't "keep up" at low frequencies with the mains within Xmax limits.
You will also find the room mode response dominates low frequency response, "the 1/4 wavelength" rule may not offer the optimum placement of your subs for even in-room response.
Art
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This is what was suggested on st look at the driver parameters.
I am not a big OB fan, but at first blush, i would try a pair of small sealed subs crossed as low as you can get away with.
Pictures of the mains?
dave
I think this is where I was getting confused, I'm never sure what wavelength we are talking about.
Yes I have been reading about Qts (I think that's the right one) and read it's preferable for the best transient response to get around .7, but the recommended box is closer to .9. I have already done the math on the plywood I have for the reccomend box, I think I can pull that off. I have read that adding damping lowers the Qtc, so I was wandering if you would think with accousta stuff or wool (which I have in abundance) I could bring that box down to .7 or if it would be more preferable to just use an undamped larger box?
Thanks for all the help and the detailed explanation, it's really cleared up a lot for me.
They aren't finished yet, but I'm building them pretty much to spec. from the link I posted. I'm still waiting on the tweeters which are backordered but I'll post a pic of them so far as what I have, my router work is embarrassing 🙂 and I have have not started any finishing work either, so hopefully they won't look so rough in the future. But here's a few pics of the "so far"
