I dont like the vertical dispersion limitations for sure. Ribbons never won me. They sound 'airy' but one thing that for sure contributes is that we cut em high.
ShinOBIWAN said:
You said fast bass. :O
No, if you had bothered to read what he typed the tweeters were tested solo. I figure if you know what you're listening for it's the same with or without a woofer.cotdt said:
454Casull said:
sorry but I'd have to disagree stongly with that 🙂 having played with the KX drivers with my sound card and crossing over at different freq's to my tweeter (admittedly I had the woofer running too) (changing in real time) it was very apparent that dropping even a few hundred hertz on the crossover freq could make a big difference to how it sounded. Based on freq response measurements I had done I thought I should be able to cross as low as 2Khz (tweeter has a 900Hz resonant freq and response was pretty smooth down to 2Khz) but what I found was anything less than a 2.8Khz crossover point started sounding really lacking in the midrange (this was with a 4th order LR active cross).
This was a most interesting revelation as the reason I was trying a lower crossover freq was because the midbass (from measurements) was drooping after 1Khz and was down quite a bit between 2 and 3Khz, I figured if I crossed the tweeter lower then it would fill some of the gap, in reality the opposite seemed to happen.
Tony.
Since the tests were conducted with just a series cap, it is different from adding an XO and a woofer which really effects the total balance. The quality of ribbons are such that they may sound good, but may not sound accurate.
I guess my point is that if you just listen to a bunch of different tweeters running full range (or even say from 1Khz up as john points out there is some rolloff after 1Khz because of the 20uF cap) and not crossing them as they are supposed to be, then you are likely to get some very nasty things happening that would never happen when they are crossed over properly (for that particular driver).
not a fair indication of quality at all IMO 🙂 just shows that some are better at handling things outside of what they are intended to reproduce than others.
Tony.
not a fair indication of quality at all IMO 🙂 just shows that some are better at handling things outside of what they are intended to reproduce than others.
Tony.
Raven claims that their ribbons have less than 1% distortion at 105 db SPL.
I've measured 90" tweeter ribbons with < 1% distortion and 90" midrange ribbons with < 2% distortion at 1m, 100db SPL with electronic Xover and direct connect amps.
Nelson Pass selected a ribbon tweeter for the Rushmore speakers. Maybe good ribbons are harder to find than good dome tweeters.
I've measured 90" tweeter ribbons with < 1% distortion and 90" midrange ribbons with < 2% distortion at 1m, 100db SPL with electronic Xover and direct connect amps.
Nelson Pass selected a ribbon tweeter for the Rushmore speakers. Maybe good ribbons are harder to find than good dome tweeters.
salas said:
This seems particularly important to me in a test like this..
Consider that your average dome has quite a bit of physical internal dampening, a good planar also has fair bit of physical dampening (though its more "structural" in nature rather than an internal loss of the diaphram itself).
By contrast a pure ribbon, especially a traditional pure ribbon (unlike the Neo CD 2.0), really has little in the way of physical dampening - instead its virtually all magnetic.
Now consider the what the ribbon's resonance is doing to the non-dampened ribbon.. Will the signal related magnetic dampening control the driver? From John's test results the answer appears to be far better than I would have suspected, but still well below a good dome. From this I think its likely that the pure ribbons (especially the traditional ones) will greatly benefit from a fairly steep crossover well above the driver's resonance.
I'd ask him to consider this (with a like comparison to a good dome with a similarly steep crossover), but frankly I'm just thankfull he has provided us with the information that he has so far - a really nice christmas present (thanks John!).
454Casull said:
hey 454 don't feel stupid, that is my interpretation I could be wrong and end up with egg on my face 😉
Tony.
I don't think any test can be conclusive unless the results differ enough to be beyond reasonable doubt. The important thing is to look at the data of a test and try to interprete how differences will actually effect sound so that one can do adequate driver selection without designing for each driver and listen to it which is really time consuming.
"By contrast a pure ribbon, especially a traditional pure ribbon (unlike the Neo CD 2.0), really has little in the way of physical dampening - instead its virtually all magnetic. "
Actually damping is provided by the air; when a diaphragm gets thin enough, the mass of the air it's moving exceeds its own mass.
This is why aluminum foil doesn't ring when tapped; the little energy it absorbs, because of it's low mass, is quickly dissipated to the air.
Actually damping is provided by the air; when a diaphragm gets thin enough, the mass of the air it's moving exceeds its own mass.
This is why aluminum foil doesn't ring when tapped; the little energy it absorbs, because of it's low mass, is quickly dissipated to the air.
454Casull said:
Casull yes I know, I was just trying to make a point that without subjective testing the results are inconclusive. Distortion at the low crossover point of 2000Hz (not what ribbons are for), of course distortion will be higher than domes, which can handle low crossover points better. Yet it is still about 1% distortion which is inaudible and not that much higher than domes. With all respect to John who has given us such nice measurements, I feel his conclusions are poorly supported. Many have reported listening to high-pitched musical instruments on ribbon tweeters and being able to make out the notes, while on domes and planars it sounds blurry and is difficult to make out. I can confirm the same experience here. So does this mean that the musical instrument is a "distortion", and those notes were in fact never played? I've recorded myself playing classical guitar, and on my LCYs I can hear my harmonic effects very well, it is airy as it truly should sound, and I can't say this for most domes. The Seas tweeter that is John's favorite makes my guitar sound dead and has almost no air at all. It measures well, but my subjective experience says that something else is going on here.
454Casull said:
I'm a DJ with my hand on the RPM stick or maybe I playback all cd's at 48Khz?
Fast bass does exist but only a few have heard it. They are the chosen ones. 😀
ShinOBIWAN said:
I'm not exactly sure you can say this... the other speakers are generally getting much more power than the LCY is... also generally for reasons inherent in small short ribbons, you'll just have more distortion due to more illinear and tight movements
I don't use my LCY ribbons any longer...I in fact am using a pair of AC Gs3i's I got new for 50% off
they match the midranges and midbasses far better without leveling up like even my DIY ribbons needed
I've never said that ribbons have low distortion... dynamics just tend to make up for that at least to most people
this is the goal however for this dome we've been testing recently... to solve this problem once and for all
Audiophilenoob said:
Twas' only a joke since there's plenty of owners that really do like the sound and that's what matters.
This isn't the first and certainly not the last ribbon vs. dome thread but it does have more objective rather than subjective data. On here that's all we've really got to go on until we've heard a particular driver.
If I owned any of the ribbons tested and enjoyed them I really couldn't care less what the conclusions were. Afterall its been known for a long time that for distortion figures ribbons aren't particularly impressive and if the technology was a dead horse companies wouldn't be expanding and improving product lines.
Today it just hapenned I had the opporunity to do a direct comparison between Audax A20 and Fountek JP3. Both measuring and listening in the same 3 way speaker with 2 PHL midbasses and PHL mid. We are developing a really nice 3 way during last month with a friend. We had the heads with the A20 and he built the mid-high heads again with JP3 and crossed it. So we had both to exchange as tweeters in two pairs of mid-high 'heads'. The crosspoints are 2800 3rd with dome, 3800 3rd with ribbon. Good thing is that JP3 is short so no big lack of vertical dispersion. Comparable loss in farfield, checked with RTA and MLS. Almost same power response. The IMD of the speaker was better by 1% between 4 and 10K with the ribbon. Dome head gave 2% when ribbon head gave 1%. 4 to 10k is where the treble is in music, next octave is brilliance or 'air'.
Subjectively we could here all piano notes distinctivly with right dynamics and presence with the ribbon. In comparison the dome gave a blured synthetic rendition. Less air too. Especially when a trillia was played (a caprice of piano high keys) the dome lost it all together. No musical sense. The ribbon passed with flying colors. One constant feeling was that the dome was there doing something, making it self present when no high notes were present. Psss, hsss, crrrr etc. The ribbon just came in, played its triangles in Mahler's 2nd and moved out like a distinct gentleman.
All in all I think that there must be a different way of testing the ribbons vs domes rightly. Because both measured IMD and subjective distortion was obviously lower in a directly comparable system under controled conditions. Mind you that Audax A20 is among the best domes ever. All the above are my honest findings in total unison with my friend's, both ecxellent engineer and a highly regarded pianist in his short musical career.
Subjectively we could here all piano notes distinctivly with right dynamics and presence with the ribbon. In comparison the dome gave a blured synthetic rendition. Less air too. Especially when a trillia was played (a caprice of piano high keys) the dome lost it all together. No musical sense. The ribbon passed with flying colors. One constant feeling was that the dome was there doing something, making it self present when no high notes were present. Psss, hsss, crrrr etc. The ribbon just came in, played its triangles in Mahler's 2nd and moved out like a distinct gentleman.
All in all I think that there must be a different way of testing the ribbons vs domes rightly. Because both measured IMD and subjective distortion was obviously lower in a directly comparable system under controled conditions. Mind you that Audax A20 is among the best domes ever. All the above are my honest findings in total unison with my friend's, both ecxellent engineer and a highly regarded pianist in his short musical career.
salas said:
Ribbons do have better phase characteristics than most domes, especially the soft ones.
Now, what would be fun was if John would altso measure one of the apexjr tweets at 5 bucks a piece!
(i have 2 pairs on their way, wanna know if i wasted my cash 🙂 )
(i have 2 pairs on their way, wanna know if i wasted my cash 🙂 )
This is what a distinct French designer wrote to Audax for A20 since almost none of you may have come across this tweeter. A20 and A26 remain the obscure last word of Audax in the era just before Harman shut them off to the diy world:
''I´m sorry that you get my feedback on your marvellous dome
tweeter that late. I had simply forgotten about it. Please find
the curves in the appendix.
In my mind this metal dome tweeter is one of the very best
available -- soundwise and measuringwise. Mechanically its´
maximum undistorted SPL at 2 kHz is 112 dB / 1m which is
about one acoustic watt. Not many dome tweeters can play
that loud. I mention this because my way of measuring at
extreme levels is kind of unsual (with tonebursts, otherwise
the voice coil would burn out).''
''I´m sorry that you get my feedback on your marvellous dome
tweeter that late. I had simply forgotten about it. Please find
the curves in the appendix.
In my mind this metal dome tweeter is one of the very best
available -- soundwise and measuringwise. Mechanically its´
maximum undistorted SPL at 2 kHz is 112 dB / 1m which is
about one acoustic watt. Not many dome tweeters can play
that loud. I mention this because my way of measuring at
extreme levels is kind of unsual (with tonebursts, otherwise
the voice coil would burn out).''
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