ZaphAudio has some new ribbon driver tests that look very interesting.
/http://www.zaphaudio.com/nondomes/
John, I though you had a couple AMT-1s to test as well.
/http://www.zaphaudio.com/nondomes/
John, I though you had a couple AMT-1s to test as well.
Thanks for another great comparison and "Myth Buster" John. You continue to provide some of the most valuable information out there to the DIY community.
I'll be sticking with domes thank you very much; interesting how the best ribbon is one of the cheapest, and around the price point of many of the better bang-for-the-buck domes.
I'll be sticking with domes thank you very much; interesting how the best ribbon is one of the cheapest, and around the price point of many of the better bang-for-the-buck domes.
darn, this is great- now I just have to figure out how loud John's standard of 90db really is!
I guess I just need to invest in an SPL meter. It would give a good point of reference to what "loud" is, as well as a good thing to use against landlords for traffic/maintenance noise!
I guess I just need to invest in an SPL meter. It would give a good point of reference to what "loud" is, as well as a good thing to use against landlords for traffic/maintenance noise!
joe carrow said:
I think that this is the most important point 🙂 as John's conclusions (to me it seems anyway) seem biased towards the driver with the lowest distortion. IMO if this distortion is occuring at drive levels much higher than I would be listening, then at the levels I would be listening it may not be an issue, and other factors may be much more important. just my
worth 🙂
Thanks for another informative test, Zaph. So much for time away from DIY?
You've really got me turned around. My JP-3s seem to do bells and vibes slightly better than my Focal TC120-TDX, which are slightly better on cymbals and the like. Both crossed 4th order at 2400. Zalytron was out of stock on 27TBFC/G, so I bought a couple 27TDFCs instead. Can't wait to get them into a system and listen. I have a sneaking suspicion that I'll be handing down my "expensive" speakers to the kids.
While 90 dB is much higher than anyone should listen continuously, it is still well within the dynamic range of much music at normal average levels. I consider 60's to low 70's normal average levels. HT use is another applicaiton where this should matter, since peaks over 100 dB are possible with averages at 75 dB.
You've really got me turned around. My JP-3s seem to do bells and vibes slightly better than my Focal TC120-TDX, which are slightly better on cymbals and the like. Both crossed 4th order at 2400. Zalytron was out of stock on 27TBFC/G, so I bought a couple 27TDFCs instead. Can't wait to get them into a system and listen. I have a sneaking suspicion that I'll be handing down my "expensive" speakers to the kids.
wintermute said:
I think that this is the most important point 🙂 as John's conclusions (to me it seems anyway) seem biased towards the driver with the lowest distortion. IMO if this distortion is occuring at drive levels much higher than I would be listening, then at the levels I would be listening it may not be an issue, and other factors may be much more important. just my
While 90 dB is much higher than anyone should listen continuously, it is still well within the dynamic range of much music at normal average levels. I consider 60's to low 70's normal average levels. HT use is another applicaiton where this should matter, since peaks over 100 dB are possible with averages at 75 dB.
Ouch, Johns going to be hurting a lot of ego's out there.
FWIW: John actually listens to, as well as testing his drivers - always does and always has. In his commentary you mainly see references to specific measurable quantities and for good reason. Sound is subjective and mearly posting opinions on the sound wouldn't do. Instead he listens and also measures the drivers and forms a conclusion based on both factors.
I've always stood by my domes and its good to see a little vindication in the numbers. This tests doesn't suddenly mean that everyone who owns the ribbons in the tests are using less superior drivers - far from it but rather there is definite distortion being added to the sound which could either be a good or bad thing depending on your tastes - look at the tube guys vs. SS for example.
Perhaps this is why some sight ribbons as being very musical because of all the 2nd and 3rd harmonics introduced.
FWIW: John actually listens to, as well as testing his drivers - always does and always has. In his commentary you mainly see references to specific measurable quantities and for good reason. Sound is subjective and mearly posting opinions on the sound wouldn't do. Instead he listens and also measures the drivers and forms a conclusion based on both factors.
I've always stood by my domes and its good to see a little vindication in the numbers. This tests doesn't suddenly mean that everyone who owns the ribbons in the tests are using less superior drivers - far from it but rather there is definite distortion being added to the sound which could either be a good or bad thing depending on your tastes - look at the tube guys vs. SS for example.
Perhaps this is why some sight ribbons as being very musical because of all the 2nd and 3rd harmonics introduced.
{smug mode}I've never really been a fan of ribbons, and these results help me justify that stance. {/smug mode} 🙂
However I do have a nightmare scenario of John actually getting his hands on my favorite ever tweeter, the Audax HD3P...
However I do have a nightmare scenario of John actually getting his hands on my favorite ever tweeter, the Audax HD3P...
I manufacturer of some super tweeters have recently aske me why I don't consider using ribbon tweeters since they have better bandwidth than his super tweeters, I told him that I think looking at the structure of ribbon tweeters have me convinced that they are very limited in producing realistic reproduction of music. This is because most are designed such that they do not stop as fast as other type of tweeters. Ted Jordan had demonstrated this years ago when he started with his 50mm module.
Futher looking into the shape of some ribbons that are like a cutout of a spider, the way that kind of shape pushes air really does tend to cause distortion.
Futher looking into the shape of some ribbons that are like a cutout of a spider, the way that kind of shape pushes air really does tend to cause distortion.
Zaph;
I was wondering if the BG NEO3 PDR was tested with or without the back cup.
The NEO3 with the back cup removed is said to enable a lower crossover. On the other hand, it’s glued on (I have a NEO3 non-PDR that I removed the back) and while its easy to remove with a utility blade, getting it back on would be a bear.
Doug
I was wondering if the BG NEO3 PDR was tested with or without the back cup.
The NEO3 with the back cup removed is said to enable a lower crossover. On the other hand, it’s glued on (I have a NEO3 non-PDR that I removed the back) and while its easy to remove with a utility blade, getting it back on would be a bear.
Doug
ShinOBIWAN said:
I dont see any reason for anybody to be hurt by John's nice measurements.
A more important thing is to try to understand what makes us like a certain speaker, and what doesn't. Is low distortion always the way to go? Why people like ribbons if they perform so bad?
ShinOBIWAN said:
I currently have domes in my speakers, but I cant say I really feel the music with these. I actually have never heard plain domes that would have given me a great musical experience. On the other hand I've heard many ribbons, planars, fullranges etc. that were much more involving than the basic dome + bass cone designs.
ShinOBIWAN said:
It could be. A while ago there was crazy debates at AVSForums about Axiom vs. SVS subwoofers. A guy I know from a finnish forum did amazing measurements for different SVS models and the Axiom EP600. The results were basically that the Axiom sucked, had a lot of distortion and could not even match a SVS with 1/5th of the price with the levels at lowest bass. However some people who had listened both said that the Axiom sounded much better and more musical than the SVS's. They never admitted that they liked a sound with more distortion, but I think that was it. Hope we dont see those arguments here. DIY-people are civilised, I hope🙂
Landroval said:
It was of course a bit of tongue in cheek.
I both agree and disagree. Speakers should of course be musical and involving but I'm an advocate of the studio monitor type of sound rather than anything that's coloured - even if its pleasant. Instead I seek out pleasure from top recordings on highly revealing electronics and speakers. The realism on offer is quite startling.
Neither way is wrong when each persons preference is given due consideration.
I'm not disagreeing for the sake of it but... I really don't like bass that contains harmonics. Its a travesty against the original signal and offensive to my ear. Playing a sub-sonic 15hz cycle only to have 30hz, 60hz etc. harmonics suddenly become audible where they shouldn't be isn't my idea of high-end. I like a fast, clean, lean and balanced bass. The only real way to get this is with low distortion and low groupdelay.
Its may add 'body' to music but for me its just blurring the details and again altering the original. Some find the added distortion an 'enhancement' to the original, I don't.
Non of what I've wrote here is the way it should be done, its just the way I feel it should be done.
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