I am officially ready to make a purchase on my dream, direct radiating, compression driver with large 12'' or 15'' inch driver with extremely high sensitivity.
The Fusion 15 at DIYsound group is without a baffle and crossover parts that's okay, but there service was dismal. Plus they don't have any Denovo DNA 360 to sell separately for future centre speaker. For $250 for woofer tweeter, ports and waveguide its average.
The Econowave deltalite 12 is a great option I can get the Eminence woofers slightly cheaper and the B&C DE250 should be around for a while to purchase seperately, overall it will cost me about the same.
The Econowave sensitivity is around 90db in the midband(dont even know what that means) while the Fusion 15 is 99db in general that's a big difference.
Does anyone know accurately the sensitivity for the Econowave deltalite 12?
Any other options around that $200 to $300 a piece for this type of speaker with higher sensitivity. These two options are the best minus the sensitivity issue with the Econowave.
The HTM 12 from sound group is also a good option including baffle and crossover parts but its out of stock.
The Fusion 15 at DIYsound group is without a baffle and crossover parts that's okay, but there service was dismal. Plus they don't have any Denovo DNA 360 to sell separately for future centre speaker. For $250 for woofer tweeter, ports and waveguide its average.
The Econowave deltalite 12 is a great option I can get the Eminence woofers slightly cheaper and the B&C DE250 should be around for a while to purchase seperately, overall it will cost me about the same.
The Econowave sensitivity is around 90db in the midband(dont even know what that means) while the Fusion 15 is 99db in general that's a big difference.
Does anyone know accurately the sensitivity for the Econowave deltalite 12?
Any other options around that $200 to $300 a piece for this type of speaker with higher sensitivity. These two options are the best minus the sensitivity issue with the Econowave.
The HTM 12 from sound group is also a good option including baffle and crossover parts but its out of stock.
How about a JBL 2206 or 2226 (widely available used for $100 to $125 each) with a B52 PHRN1014 waveguide with a Peerless 2544 (or even 2535 if you go with the 2206 that can be crossed a bit higher). You can probably swing this for under $250 per speaker. Either of these combos should easily outperform the Fusion15 or the Econowave Deltalite 12.
Personally I would go for active crossover, but that's not a necessity. Both the 2206 and 2226 have no terrible breakup modes to deal with.
Personally I would go for active crossover, but that's not a necessity. Both the 2206 and 2226 have no terrible breakup modes to deal with.
DIYSG is basically one person, Erich, and he’s in the middle of moving the entire inventory to a new location. So he’s a bit scattered right now.
For a center channel they offer the 88-Special. It’s the same waveguide and compression driver as the Fusion-15 but with a pair of 16-ohm 8” woofers. I use it and it sounds great.
For a center channel they offer the 88-Special. It’s the same waveguide and compression driver as the Fusion-15 but with a pair of 16-ohm 8” woofers. I use it and it sounds great.
Great thanks ill look into it.
I would prefer the ease of a passive crossover if its got one? Can't be bothered attempting to design one. Otherwise I might have to go active.
Ill take a look in the second hand market.
To be honest the Econowave is a great option minus the sensitivity. I am not really looking for a centre speaker I just need to know the drivers will be around for future for when I can afford it.
I understand about Erick moving, all good. Just keen on a purchase and not getting much info out of him. So I am trying here to see what other options exist. The Fusion are also not a bad option....
If you're concerned about future driver availability I wouldn't worry about the 2206 or 2226. JBL must have made a zillion of them as they appear to be everywhere (in fact, they still make them). The B52 waveguide, OTOH, will probably soon disappear (it's a buyout). Maybe forever. The Peerless CDs should be around for a while.
Regarding a crossover: I don't know of anyone who has developed a passive crossover for those drivers. I run active myself, so I'm no help at all...
Regarding a crossover: I don't know of anyone who has developed a passive crossover for those drivers. I run active myself, so I'm no help at all...
Na, please your help will be appreciated and let me know how you have set up your active crossover. I think I am just not a fan of the minidsp to much noise, it definitely is not transparent.
And why do you think the JBL Peerless combo should be better than the fusion and Econowave?
I am looking for that slam and midbass punch 12' or 15'' with great dynamics and transients. I know enough about driver enclosure so that i can do. Just want the active crossover to be descent, cause they seem like proper drivers and tied in it should be very good speaker.
And why do you think the JBL Peerless combo should be better than the fusion and Econowave?
I am looking for that slam and midbass punch 12' or 15'' with great dynamics and transients. I know enough about driver enclosure so that i can do. Just want the active crossover to be descent, cause they seem like proper drivers and tied in it should be very good speaker.
A 12 or a 15 (or 2) per side will add some punch, especially running aall the way up to 750hz (15") or 1.2khz (12").
Don't forget the eminence delta pro 12a, smooth break up.
Don't forget the eminence delta pro 12a, smooth break up.
I email pretty regularly with Erich. His remaining compression drivers are committed to the kits currently in his inventory. He has been planning on resupplying after the move. As for the waveguide, I’m not sure what the inventory looks like but I do know a couple companies have tried to copy the design so he removed the stock from the website. Even if he has extras, now or in the future, folks are probably going to contact him directly for purchase.
I wouldn't say that. A good result is a good result either way. If you have a successful transfer function that demonstrates good design, then it would work passive as well. It's then up to another individual to make their own type of crossover achieve that.
Essentially I would like to use this set of direct radiating speakers with my Marantz pre pro 7005 so I can eventually add centre and surrounds. I only listen to music and feel the added reverb is adding something to the music. Plus I have my main system which is pretty awesome.
So passsive crossover helps, and adding a active crossover should work I will just add it in between the pre pro and power amp but that adds in the distortion from the active crossover.
I dont think I am left with any other option if I wanted to set it up this way?
So passsive crossover helps, and adding a active crossover should work I will just add it in between the pre pro and power amp but that adds in the distortion from the active crossover.
I dont think I am left with any other option if I wanted to set it up this way?
I built a sealed wide-baffle cabinet with B&C DE250 and the B52 buyout horn + 2x Dayton PA-310. It's a 2.5 way MTM with one woofer low-passed after the baffle step, the other crossed at 1300Hz to the horn, used allpass filters to tweak the phase. I like it, especially for the money!
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Lovely idea Tommus.
I've thought of doing something quite similar ( if + when I downsize from twin 15's arranged in an MTM .
Can you please provide more details about your build ( such as cabinet size(s) , maybe some more crossover details )
I've found that ( what I call ) an asymmetrical MTM can work just wonderfully ( such as a sealed JBL le10h on top working in parallel with a JBL le14H on the bottom ).
I use an Altec 288-8K on an Emilar Radial EH500 in the middle ( 650-700hz Xover ).
- The idea developed in the early 2000's as a visual take-away after spotting the Focal-JMLab Grand Utopia.
I might eventually try a pair of JBL 2204H's in the top position ( but only after I get some aquaplas painted onto the cones ).
🙂
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These cabinets are about 36" high x 24" wide. The massive side bevels do a lot to control diffraction around the mid/high crossover, and the width keeps the baffle step low, and the 2nd woofer is baffle step compensation. Also they fit well in a corner, which is where they live in my long narrow living room. This is basically an Econowave with an extra woofer.
If you use a constant directivity horn (and these PE buyout horns are really great sounding) you can "cross-eye" them at a 45degree angle and get a nice "image cloud" in most of the room, even off to the sides. The well-behaved reflections from a CD horn are very natural sounding.
I'm using Hypex Fusion FA503 to drive these. The mid-high XO is 1300Hz LR24, and time-delayed to compensate for the horn/woofer offset. I rolled the low woofer off starting at 300Hz with a 2nd order LP so it's 24dB down by the time it could interfere with the high woofer/horn. Both woofers run full range into the low end and with 4x12" I really don't miss a sub in my room. You could of course build these vented too - I kept it simple. You could also do an WWT and it would be better for vertical dispersion if the tweeter height worked for you. It would not look as cool though.
Last thing, if you have active XO you can apply a 300hz 2nd order allpass filter to the mid-woof and the horn driver to align with the phase of the added woofer as it fades out. I read an article about this but I can't find it anymore...
p.s. don't know why the image got rotated
If you use a constant directivity horn (and these PE buyout horns are really great sounding) you can "cross-eye" them at a 45degree angle and get a nice "image cloud" in most of the room, even off to the sides. The well-behaved reflections from a CD horn are very natural sounding.
I'm using Hypex Fusion FA503 to drive these. The mid-high XO is 1300Hz LR24, and time-delayed to compensate for the horn/woofer offset. I rolled the low woofer off starting at 300Hz with a 2nd order LP so it's 24dB down by the time it could interfere with the high woofer/horn. Both woofers run full range into the low end and with 4x12" I really don't miss a sub in my room. You could of course build these vented too - I kept it simple. You could also do an WWT and it would be better for vertical dispersion if the tweeter height worked for you. It would not look as cool though.
Last thing, if you have active XO you can apply a 300hz 2nd order allpass filter to the mid-woof and the horn driver to align with the phase of the added woofer as it fades out. I read an article about this but I can't find it anymore...
p.s. don't know why the image got rotated
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I contacted him and his replies are short and not informative enough. If he will not sell them separately which I think is bad business then at least tell me. Small businesses like this need to accommodate customers otherwise will always end up at parts express. That said, I understand that each probably belongs to a pack and he did mention he is not sure if they will be restocking them, hence why I am reluctant to purchase the Fusion 15. As I will have not much room to move forward if I want a centre speaker.
I will add thought that the Fusion 15 still looks like the best option so I might end up sucking it up and going with it. High sensitivity, descent drivers. The idea of using digital or an active crossover with an Pre Pro makes things a little harder.
When you say allpass filters can you describe what you mean? Active crossover, digital filters just so I get my head around it. Using another approach other than designing a passive crossover is something I am considering, it seems many have gone this route.
Allpass filters change only the phase of the signal while leaving the amplitude unchanged. Since putting a lowpass filter on the woofer creates an inherent phase shift, you can put corresponding allpass filters on the other drivers to mimic that shift (while leaving the amplitude unchanged) The drivers will now combine in a more phase-coherent way. It's a good way to deal with the vertical cancellations between the widely-spaced LF drivers that are the Achilles' heel of any MTM design.
Not all DSP software allows you to specify allpass filters. I don't think you need this to make a great-sounding speaker, but it provides a more "baked-in" approach to dealing with how the drivers combine at different points in space. You can do similar things with time-delay or just regular EQ but they are more of "band-aid" solutions. On the other hand, if you have FIR processing you can make these phase manipulations with much more precision than you could with an allpass filter.
Not all DSP software allows you to specify allpass filters. I don't think you need this to make a great-sounding speaker, but it provides a more "baked-in" approach to dealing with how the drivers combine at different points in space. You can do similar things with time-delay or just regular EQ but they are more of "band-aid" solutions. On the other hand, if you have FIR processing you can make these phase manipulations with much more precision than you could with an allpass filter.
You don't normally need allpass filters with DSP, you can time align with delays. You can also use guasi-optimal alignments that have the best phase response, then add the necessary delays to properly time align.