I think I posted $200-300 or less at some point near the beginning here (and I meant for a pair), so all of those are fine as far as price.
I already have a PA system, I specifically said I WOULDN'T require high SPL for the point of this thread, and I didn't ridicule anything here. Goodness, please stop trying to manufacture arguments folks, this thread is about trying some things, so how about arguing about what to try?
Well, where to cross to what is more complicated than that, but I'm not here to read another stale debate about this compromise vs. that compromise; I want to do. If anyone missed it, see post #31, my third attempt to explain what I want to do. Almost zero people have actually tried to contribute toward doing the experiment(s) so far 😛. I have all sorts of biases just like anybody, but this isn't some kind of thinly-veiled attempt to "prove" anything. I thought the concept of a never-ending experiment with single driver design vs. same design + tweeter/filter would be interesting, because I almost never see it done, and it's a simple as that. (When I say I almost never see it, I'm not counting super tweeters with a series cap plopped on top, as I had more careful integration in mind).
The multi-thousand dollar speakers pictured above are simply cones and domes in boxes. They have crossovers and are probably difficult for lower powered amps to drive. Maybe they sound good, maybe they don't. The cabinetry is beautiful.
Some of the full range drivers I have heard and owned have excellent treble. Adding a super tweeter sometimes helps and sometimes doesn't.
I read post #31. I would like to offer a suggestion. One of my favorite speakers is a BIB using a Fostex 127e. No tweeter is necessary and the BIB enclosure enhances the bass so that in a small room no bass support is necessary either. I think it's a terrific setup for a small/medium sized room. The driver is no longer available but perhaps the ones below might work for your purposes. Many systems have been built using these drivers without helper woofers or tweeters. Also, some have used these drivers with tweeters crossed lower using something more sophisticated than a simple capacitor. The jury is out as to which sounds better - but it's my opinion that the drivers listed are examples that don't 'need' tweeters to sound excellent. I'd suggest back horns. Keep us posted on your progress.
http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-5-fullrange/fostex-ff125wk-5-full-range/
Here are a few additional options to consider that are reasonably priced.
http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-5-fullrange/fostex-fx120-5-full-range/
http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-6-fullrange/markaudio-alpair-10-grey-6-full-range-gen-2/
http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-6-fullrange/fostex-fe163en-s-special-full-range-6-each/
http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-4-fullrange/fostex-fe108ez-4-full-range-sigma-series/
http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.co...rkaudio-alpair-7-gen3-grey-cone-4-full-range/
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=264-903
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=264-848
Zilla
Some of the full range drivers I have heard and owned have excellent treble. Adding a super tweeter sometimes helps and sometimes doesn't.
I read post #31. I would like to offer a suggestion. One of my favorite speakers is a BIB using a Fostex 127e. No tweeter is necessary and the BIB enclosure enhances the bass so that in a small room no bass support is necessary either. I think it's a terrific setup for a small/medium sized room. The driver is no longer available but perhaps the ones below might work for your purposes. Many systems have been built using these drivers without helper woofers or tweeters. Also, some have used these drivers with tweeters crossed lower using something more sophisticated than a simple capacitor. The jury is out as to which sounds better - but it's my opinion that the drivers listed are examples that don't 'need' tweeters to sound excellent. I'd suggest back horns. Keep us posted on your progress.
http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-5-fullrange/fostex-ff125wk-5-full-range/
Here are a few additional options to consider that are reasonably priced.
http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-5-fullrange/fostex-fx120-5-full-range/
http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-6-fullrange/markaudio-alpair-10-grey-6-full-range-gen-2/
http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-6-fullrange/fostex-fe163en-s-special-full-range-6-each/
http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-4-fullrange/fostex-fe108ez-4-full-range-sigma-series/
http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.co...rkaudio-alpair-7-gen3-grey-cone-4-full-range/
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=264-903
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=264-848
Zilla
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my full rangers do not need a tweeter, your not missing anything above 15k and since I can't hear that high anyways why have it.
Hi dumptruck, all things considered, I would recommend this driver for the experiment:
The Madisound Speaker Store
In a simple ported box. The treble is really good, the dynamics are remarkable for a little widebander and so it is well-suited to your criteria (I believe). Like you, I have no idea what the outcome will be, so this could be a lot of fun.
The Madisound Speaker Store
In a simple ported box. The treble is really good, the dynamics are remarkable for a little widebander and so it is well-suited to your criteria (I believe). Like you, I have no idea what the outcome will be, so this could be a lot of fun.
okay I get it. well I did a lot of research about fullrange. Theres Fostex, Mark Audio, Supravox that are affordable and good fullrange.
I have prefered my alpair to my fostex and most people seem to prefer alpairs to fostex I think. So you could go with alpairs. The other brand I would trust would be supravox. the bicone version would be a great candidate. Maybe go vintage with a jbl lE8t.
If you only want fullrange, a 4 inch is not big enough for bass, so you can only go with 6 inch or 8 inch, so supravox 8 inch or alpair 12p would be my two choice.
Alright, so I guess that's sort of several folks for Markaudio. Btw, Fostex recommendations (and everything else), please stick to readily-available stuff. As far as bass extension, my only requirement is to have enough that the driver is relatively popular for use on its own - doesn't matter if it's enough for my tastes or not.
If anyone out there is thinking about the different strategies one might take for passing off treble duty from smaller and larger (or smallest and small) drivers, I know, I know, there are at least a couple strategies for every size, and the intended usage plays into it, etc. All part of the fun. The goal for a starting point is still simple: whatever people think is least likely to benefit from any sort of tweeter and filtering. Everything else follows whatever THAT is, and how you would best make use of that driver on its own.
I was thinking that's probably going to be a 2.5-3" driver, but these sorts of speakers are only barely on my radar, so I'm not sure. For example, the Alpair 10p, at a glance, looks like it was designed with some sacrifices to end up with an extended response, spread out breakup, and smooth narrowing of directivity. Maybe that kind of driver could actually have the least to gain from bringing in an HF driver, because the compromises were spread out way down into the lower mids, and you have to bring in the HF sooner because of the larger size? I think probably not, but I'm not sure, and this is the sort of thing I want to be discussing here 🙂.
If anyone out there is thinking about the different strategies one might take for passing off treble duty from smaller and larger (or smallest and small) drivers, I know, I know, there are at least a couple strategies for every size, and the intended usage plays into it, etc. All part of the fun. The goal for a starting point is still simple: whatever people think is least likely to benefit from any sort of tweeter and filtering. Everything else follows whatever THAT is, and how you would best make use of that driver on its own.
I was thinking that's probably going to be a 2.5-3" driver, but these sorts of speakers are only barely on my radar, so I'm not sure. For example, the Alpair 10p, at a glance, looks like it was designed with some sacrifices to end up with an extended response, spread out breakup, and smooth narrowing of directivity. Maybe that kind of driver could actually have the least to gain from bringing in an HF driver, because the compromises were spread out way down into the lower mids, and you have to bring in the HF sooner because of the larger size? I think probably not, but I'm not sure, and this is the sort of thing I want to be discussing here 🙂.
The 10p could possibly be at the top of the list of drivers that would least benefit from either a tweeter, or a woofer. They have very good top end, and good bass extension, at least in the FHXL. A7.3 would probably make a better mid-tweeter, if that's the direction you end up going.
jeff
this thread is really interesting for me since I will be doing the same thing, add a tweeter to a fullranger, with the alpair 12 p. why dont you get the A12p and also experiement with tweeter or super tweeter. I tthink a 6khz xo with a A12p is a good idea. Anyone, please chime in.
>>> As far as bass extension, my only requirement is to have enough that the driver is relatively popular for use on its own - doesn't matter if it's enough for my tastes or not.
Bass extension is part of the challenge when working with fullrange drivers. Part of the fun is figuring out the cabinet design. A driver may sound great in a back horn and lousy in a ported box. When selecting your driver take into consideration a cabinet that provides maximum bass performance. Then add the tweeter. Enjoy!
Bass extension is part of the challenge when working with fullrange drivers. Part of the fun is figuring out the cabinet design. A driver may sound great in a back horn and lousy in a ported box. When selecting your driver take into consideration a cabinet that provides maximum bass performance. Then add the tweeter. Enjoy!
I have to echo some of Georges sentiments. I have a couple of two ways and some fullrangers too.
A fullranger is always compromised, but in their specialisation dedicated drivers also accept some trade offs.
The greatest thing i ever did was try active with my two ways. Against all my expectations, that difference really was night and day.
Given that fullrangers, unless in a fast, are more similar to active two ways, isn't that a better comparison?
A fullranger is always compromised, but in their specialisation dedicated drivers also accept some trade offs.
The greatest thing i ever did was try active with my two ways. Against all my expectations, that difference really was night and day.
Given that fullrangers, unless in a fast, are more similar to active two ways, isn't that a better comparison?
It depends, but I see what you're saying. I can do active stuff. I am kind of trying to give the single driver every advantage initially, though.
If you are going to do that then consider the Fostex FF125WK. I've not heard an Alpair that needs a tweeter.
I understand that, and the small frs i have do have some of that point source magic, but double the listening distance and much of that advantage disappears (at least with my speakers, or at least my ears).
Id also agree that a 2way and typical xo point is flawed. But domes or ring radiators still suck crossed low. Trouble is that 3" fullrange is about the largest i can bear, before it seems too laser focussed in the treble.
My feeling is the same for 'true' fullrange.
I used to like the idea of first order filters, but whilst there's some of that interest remaining, ive largely accepted its a virtual impossibility. The best ive managed in simulation is 2nd order elec at 500hz with a 2" wideranger. Going with my 3" ers i get to about 120Hz at best. And for me, a 4" is out of the question.
What id really like from the new MA driver assemblies, are basswide and wide range versions on the A5/6 frames. Say a MTM with equal size drivers.
Id also agree that a 2way and typical xo point is flawed. But domes or ring radiators still suck crossed low. Trouble is that 3" fullrange is about the largest i can bear, before it seems too laser focussed in the treble.
My feeling is the same for 'true' fullrange.
I used to like the idea of first order filters, but whilst there's some of that interest remaining, ive largely accepted its a virtual impossibility. The best ive managed in simulation is 2nd order elec at 500hz with a 2" wideranger. Going with my 3" ers i get to about 120Hz at best. And for me, a 4" is out of the question.
What id really like from the new MA driver assemblies, are basswide and wide range versions on the A5/6 frames. Say a MTM with equal size drivers.
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There is something in them, for sure. Using a 3" cone with a 1k Fs and its area to get there rather than thru excursion capacity. Its a charm. But they didn't go low enough.
Two version of a MA driver would be cool, say a high and low Q, or high or low Fs, and excursion....same cone. Again, probably not feasible.
As I understand it, dumptruck is searching for a widebander that (according to its fans):
(a) doesn't need a tweeter, and
(b) cannot be improved by a filter, and
(c) costs under $300/pair, and
(d) has some dynamic capability
(a) doesn't need a tweeter, and
(b) cannot be improved by a filter, and
(c) costs under $300/pair, and
(d) has some dynamic capability
Lol $299.99 headphones?
There's a strange duality in full range audio. Many want to listen to orchestral music. Some with a quiet cigar, others with the gusto of live performances. In Weems book for the classic fan he recommends a large multiway, but many seek the imaging of small speakers. Or words to that effect. If you're the gusto type, i doubt anything but a large, and hf challenged FR is probably best. But you give up a little image, and alot of living space. Or you can go the other way.
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What do people think about this idea for a quick start? I buy one of cheap Madisound "Kanspea" kits (FE103En, FF105WK, FE83En, or FF85WK), and hopefully one of the recommended Markaudio drivers will also work well with the cab volume, baffle width, and maybe even baffle hole? Anybody want to check that for me? 😉
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