No, but but I guess the smaller Alpairs seem to be the leading choice so far (looking for "well-regarded full-range driver least likely to be improved by good tweeter implementation", for anyone not reading the thread). I'm ready to go for those, but no space ready to cut cabinets at the moment and very few posts in this thread are actually giving input on the experiment, so I've been leaving it open in case anyone interested stops by, like you.
I would decide what to try first after taking detailed off-axis measurements of the main driver. The first tweeter would be something very cheap, because that's what makes sense for the point of the experiment.
Well, what do you think about the Alpair series? What "gen" are the Markaudio drivers that you mentioned having already (CHR-70, CHP-70), and what does anyone else reading think of those? You wouldn't need to do your own measurements/sims/designs/etc. to be helpful, but all the more fun if you did.
The Alpair's look pretty good, but I've never used them. I've dreamed of trying the 12P, but haven't wanted to spend that much on a full range driver yet. Which Alpair are you looking at?
The CHR is gen3, can't remember which CHP, 2 maybe. I wouldn't consider the CHP as something that people say can't be improved in the treble, but the CHR maybe, though I thought it took to a little shaping up top nicely. Unfortunately I don't have the CHR's anymore. I think of the three I mentioned, the Fostex FF85wk has the nicest treble if a tiny bit ragged. Not sure how any of these compare to the Alpairs.
I would think that a bit larger driver would make for a more worthwhile project considering their more likely treble deficiencies, but I guess not in keeping with the experiment and probably more difficult to cross with beaming issues.
Are you expecting to cross high, say above 4k or aim for a more typical 1-3k?
BTW, I can do sims/design etc. if needed and I have the time, I'm no expert, but I understand most of the concepts and have some experience with the programs. Why exactly are you looking for someone to build simultaneously, just as a second set of ears?
I've forgotten, but it was a few options in the smallest two sizes. There are some suggestions toward the end of the thread, IIRC.
Correct, not in keeping with the experiment at all. 🙂 There is no 100% "get your money's worth" failsafe here, but unless fans of the chosen full-range drivers are completely bonkers (and I don't think that), the worst case should still involve a fairly decent set of little speakers, right? Well, that makes it sound like I think the worst case is not being able to improve it with a tweeter, but that's not what I mean, that would be very interesting. I mean "worst case" as in the whole experiment doesn't really happen for some reason and you're stuck with some parts and no fun times. Removable baffles are kind of expected.
Depends on specific drivers and strategies of course, and I have some expectations about what is likely to work best, but this is about experimenting.
Well, in a way yes, the biggest reason is I am especially interested in ears of people that think the single driver will be best on its own, because that's the opposite of my biases. Obviously that would make matching subjective reports a little more convincing, and conflicting reports would also be plenty interesting (and I have ideas for proceeding from that point, too).
That said, other people building simultaneously with their own measurements and design contributions (with the same drivers and same-ish cabinets) would make for much more of an experiment. I am interested in simultaneous builds for both reasons / either reason.
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Well, I am thinking more in line with you, that, if designed and implemented correctly, a decent tweeter could be an improvement. There's of course a chance that it ruins the cohesiveness that a single driver excels at. With that in mind, I'm not sure anyone would believe what we have to say if it indeed jibes with our hypothesis.
I'll take a look back at what's been suggested. Interesting to me that everyone has been recommending the MA drivers; I always thought that their greatest draw was their extended bass response for driver/cabinet size. I know they are very wide range and they do an excellent job of controlling breakup and dispersion too, but they're bass response for a full range is what originally drew me in.
Dave,
The FR graph for the 7.3 shows some awful looking peak/null combo's all through the mid range and I don't think they would smooth out in a typical baffle. I know the 6.2's graph is shown on a larger scale, but it still looks much better to me.
Which driver do you like best and is there something I'm missing about the 7.3 response or are you just recommending it based on it's extended treble response?
Thanks
I prefer the A7.3eN. Note that not many of the drivers i have escape treatment and matching so my experiemces are largely with drivers taken to the next level.
As to FR, it is a tool. How does the response change off axis. How does it look at different levels? What does it look like if you move the setiup a couple inches, or move it into a different space? What does the FR look like 20 dB down in the presense of a 0 dB signal? 40 dB?
The FR charts we see are very crude representations. Useful but you have to keep in mind how much more there is to know.
Vrs the A6.2m i marginally prefer the FF85wk for my aps (both treated of course) althou in a shot-out it comes down to what compromises you'll make for your specific application.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/196061-3-driver-audition-fostex-mark-audio.html
dave
Since Dave has listened to so many of these drivers closely, I am really glad to have his recommendations for what is least likely to be improved by a tweeter, as long as it's something relatively widely-enjoyed on its own. Remember, the compromises made to achieve wide bandwidth with enjoyable sound are key to the whole experiment (as I so poorly explained in the OP and then had to rehash over and over).
This isn't 2-way from scratch vs. 1-way from scratch, because I can't do that in an interesting way and nobody would care if I did, anyway. It's 1-way given every reasonable advantage vs. its modded self.
(and edit: P.S. I'm not talking "super tweeters", not sure if I mentioned that so far, but satx sort of indirectly mentioned it, and now I'm saying this.. anyway yeah no 10kHz xovers involved here, that's boring and I don't like it conceptually, unless maybe we get there by a long route of experimentation, but that's last on the list for me, more interested in <10k performance, subjective and objective)
This isn't 2-way from scratch vs. 1-way from scratch, because I can't do that in an interesting way and nobody would care if I did, anyway. It's 1-way given every reasonable advantage vs. its modded self.
(and edit: P.S. I'm not talking "super tweeters", not sure if I mentioned that so far, but satx sort of indirectly mentioned it, and now I'm saying this.. anyway yeah no 10kHz xovers involved here, that's boring and I don't like it conceptually, unless maybe we get there by a long route of experimentation, but that's last on the list for me, more interested in <10k performance, subjective and objective)
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Thanks,
I know that what's in the marketing literature is not what we'll see when they're set up in a real room, but it's always nice to start with a relatively smooth anechoic response. I do tend to get hung up on the FR graph though, like a lot of people I guess.
With the understanding that Dynamics and spl isn't a goal here, wouldn't the FF85wk be a better option than the MA drivers? Looking at your 3" comparison and based on my experience with it, it looks like you prefer it for treble and imaging. Also, it's cheaper (even after the recent price hike) which makes since for an experiment.
So are you saying you will take an existing, oft built, full range plan and incorporate a tweeter as opposed to starting from the ground up?
I was just rambling since I'm currently messing around with a pair. I understand what your objective is, but that may not have been clear to everyone even before I muddied the waters.
It depends on jow much bass you want. it will reach 80-90 Hz in the right box. Both the A6.2 go lower, the A7 lower yet.
When we 1st started playing with the FF85k we worried about the viability of selling it for what we would need to, to make it worthwhile treating & matching. Then we heard it, and realized that it was as good at being a tweeter as tweeters costing the same or more. The new FF85wk is even better. Still a hard sell. More than half of the ones we have gotten in so far have been used internally. Including at least 3 really good FASTs. The FAST with the A7.3eN is better thou (price not considered).
dave
Yep that's pretty much the idea, but not a giant back horn, but I think that's okay since it's being compared to itself and I'm fine evaluating based on whatever purpose "itself" is purported to be best for.
I might be kind of into starting with a driver you can barely sell as an FR because of bass response... I did say I wanted to try to fail, after all, and it's not like it's a 1". Can you translate A7.3eN for me please?
Yeah, it's pretty limited and I've only really used it with bass support. For this, without support we'd be left with a fairly thin sounding speaker. Though I'm sure I'd eventually connect something up to them (sub or fast woofers) unless I turned them into shop speakers in which case I don't know if I be happy with them.
How would you overcome that limitation with a tweeter? Xmax is something like 1mm and fs is around 150 so there's really no coaxing bass out of it.
Dumptruck,
To summarize, your goals are:
1. Take a widebander with good mid-range and treble - typically these are 3"-4" units. the LF performance will depend on design, and bass can go into the 50s(or a bit higher for the 3" drivers), but will not play loud or sound powerful due to limited cone size.
2. See if the top end (and possibly mid-range) can be improved with a relatively inexpensive tweeter?
Or,
a. Take a widebander with larger cone diameter 5"-8" with more cone excursion. Bass performance will be better vs smaller drivers, but upper frequency performance (extension, dispersion) likely to be slightly worse.
b. See if the top end (and possibly mid-range) can be improved with a relatively inexpensive tweeter?
If goals are still 1, 2 then the Alpair 7.3 is a good option - it has the best mid and top end among the wideband drivers I have listened to (most of the MA range, 3 Fostex drivers). Btw, the Alp 10P might be a good choice too - read that the mid-range is very good, and top end also no slouch.
To summarize, your goals are:
1. Take a widebander with good mid-range and treble - typically these are 3"-4" units. the LF performance will depend on design, and bass can go into the 50s(or a bit higher for the 3" drivers), but will not play loud or sound powerful due to limited cone size.
2. See if the top end (and possibly mid-range) can be improved with a relatively inexpensive tweeter?
Or,
a. Take a widebander with larger cone diameter 5"-8" with more cone excursion. Bass performance will be better vs smaller drivers, but upper frequency performance (extension, dispersion) likely to be slightly worse.
b. See if the top end (and possibly mid-range) can be improved with a relatively inexpensive tweeter?
If goals are still 1, 2 then the Alpair 7.3 is a good option - it has the best mid and top end among the wideband drivers I have listened to (most of the MA range, 3 Fostex drivers). Btw, the Alp 10P might be a good choice too - read that the mid-range is very good, and top end also no slouch.
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Hey Dave, how do you think FF105WK stacks up to the 3", if you've heard it? Still eyeing those cheap KANSPEA boxes...
Hey,
I've used it so I can at least give an opinion, but not compared to the Alpairs. It has a very clear and vibrant midrange and extended, pretty smooth treble. Good off axis performance for it's size. Used full range, it's pretty volume limited with dynamic material (.35mm xmax), but it does seem to be able to move more than that without issue. I've noticed a 180d phase shift at about 2500Hz that may or may not cause issues. It could also be an artifact of the woofer I'm using interacting out of phase with the Fostex. I've tested it against Fr88ex, CHR, CHP and a couple of small Tangbands. I like it the best with woofer help, the Mark Audio's without bass help.
Dave will of course know more when he chimes in.
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