Hello all,
A few questions if anyone has a moment to drop a little wisdom.
I'm a bit enamored with full range drivers and the simplicity of not using passive crossovers. What I'm thinking about may not be really feasible or the wrong tool for the job, but what's the harm in asking or thinking about it right?
I'm not sure if the following would be best suited to a particular full range driver (both single or two of them together in a bipole) or a coaxial with crossover already built in (I'm not sure which driver this would be, forgive me for not wanting to do a passive crossover for this, but I would entertain a coaxial with a crossover already in there if that exists).
I was thinking of a few build ideas with full range drivers. Application is all audio in my listening room which is fully duty for music, games and movies/shows. I rotate speakers and builds through this room fairly often and just like to try things. Looking to try some fun builds that sound decent. Seating is limited, so I don't need massive dispersion or coverage. Distances for listening are no greater than 4 meters (12~13 feet) but often a little closer than that such as 2 meters (6~7 feet). Goal is to be able to produce SPL in their working range into the 80's db range at those distances, if I can.
Build Question 1:
Full range bi-pole, similar to the microplanet mini castles. I was thinking of making them shorter, squatier, fatter bookshelves rather than towers with the drivers facing forward and up in a bi-pole arrangement. I'm not worried about getting deep bass, I would be totally happy with them being 60hz capable just so there's plenty of room to crossover with co-located subs paired with them, each. Figured this design has better off-axis response and with two drivers a bit better SPL output with power handling and xmax limits on so many drivers. Can't decide on a driver, I have seen many in several threads suggested from MA and Fostex. Would this be a wrong tool for the job to watch movies and shows considering they would be with subs and considering an SPL range of the 80's db at 6~12 feet?
Was thinking up to $200 in drivers per speaker enclosure. I would be looking to make 3 identical enclosures.
Build Question 2:
Continuing on the show/movie theme, I'm thinking of building some simple full range driver based atmos or height speakers. I can't decide if a coaxial with premade crossover or a full range driver would be better. This really only needs to get to around 80~100hz and then crossover. Was considering a larger 8" full range driver, or possibly exploring smaller 4~5" full range drivers in a bi-pole arrangement again? Or other? This one I was thinking potentially going sealed for lots of simplicity as these speakers would not be getting a lot of use frankly and truly do not need to produce much low end response.
Was thinking $80 in drivers per speaker enclosure. I would be looking to making up to 4 identical enclosures.
Thoughts on full range driver differences for the above applications that are small 4" vs larger 8" or more?
Thoughts on SPL differences of one larger 8" vs two smaller drivers?
Off-axis (greater than 30 degrees total, or say 15 degrees from center axis either direction) response differences?
Thanks so much for any thoughts.
Very best,
A few questions if anyone has a moment to drop a little wisdom.
I'm a bit enamored with full range drivers and the simplicity of not using passive crossovers. What I'm thinking about may not be really feasible or the wrong tool for the job, but what's the harm in asking or thinking about it right?
I'm not sure if the following would be best suited to a particular full range driver (both single or two of them together in a bipole) or a coaxial with crossover already built in (I'm not sure which driver this would be, forgive me for not wanting to do a passive crossover for this, but I would entertain a coaxial with a crossover already in there if that exists).
I was thinking of a few build ideas with full range drivers. Application is all audio in my listening room which is fully duty for music, games and movies/shows. I rotate speakers and builds through this room fairly often and just like to try things. Looking to try some fun builds that sound decent. Seating is limited, so I don't need massive dispersion or coverage. Distances for listening are no greater than 4 meters (12~13 feet) but often a little closer than that such as 2 meters (6~7 feet). Goal is to be able to produce SPL in their working range into the 80's db range at those distances, if I can.
Build Question 1:
Full range bi-pole, similar to the microplanet mini castles. I was thinking of making them shorter, squatier, fatter bookshelves rather than towers with the drivers facing forward and up in a bi-pole arrangement. I'm not worried about getting deep bass, I would be totally happy with them being 60hz capable just so there's plenty of room to crossover with co-located subs paired with them, each. Figured this design has better off-axis response and with two drivers a bit better SPL output with power handling and xmax limits on so many drivers. Can't decide on a driver, I have seen many in several threads suggested from MA and Fostex. Would this be a wrong tool for the job to watch movies and shows considering they would be with subs and considering an SPL range of the 80's db at 6~12 feet?
Was thinking up to $200 in drivers per speaker enclosure. I would be looking to make 3 identical enclosures.
Build Question 2:
Continuing on the show/movie theme, I'm thinking of building some simple full range driver based atmos or height speakers. I can't decide if a coaxial with premade crossover or a full range driver would be better. This really only needs to get to around 80~100hz and then crossover. Was considering a larger 8" full range driver, or possibly exploring smaller 4~5" full range drivers in a bi-pole arrangement again? Or other? This one I was thinking potentially going sealed for lots of simplicity as these speakers would not be getting a lot of use frankly and truly do not need to produce much low end response.
Was thinking $80 in drivers per speaker enclosure. I would be looking to making up to 4 identical enclosures.
Thoughts on full range driver differences for the above applications that are small 4" vs larger 8" or more?
Thoughts on SPL differences of one larger 8" vs two smaller drivers?
Off-axis (greater than 30 degrees total, or say 15 degrees from center axis either direction) response differences?
Thanks so much for any thoughts.
Very best,
So you want to avoid 2 fullrange drivers in a single channel…….comb filtering will produce short but deep nulls and smear the image
The larger the fullrange driver, the worse the off axis dispersion and they begin to beam earlier…….where the wavelengths are the same or shorter than the useable diameter of the driver
Im not aware of any DIY coax drivers with crossovers already in place
While a crossoverless system seems like the easier path, there’s tradeoffs and I have NEVER come across a full range driver that didn’t benefit from either a baffle step compensation network or a notch filter where the breakup lies.
FYI….KEF Q150s are currently on sale for $349 a pair…this happens just about every year. In all honesty, you’re not going to surpass that level of performance for less $$ with a DIY effort.
The larger the fullrange driver, the worse the off axis dispersion and they begin to beam earlier…….where the wavelengths are the same or shorter than the useable diameter of the driver
Im not aware of any DIY coax drivers with crossovers already in place
While a crossoverless system seems like the easier path, there’s tradeoffs and I have NEVER come across a full range driver that didn’t benefit from either a baffle step compensation network or a notch filter where the breakup lies.
FYI….KEF Q150s are currently on sale for $349 a pair…this happens just about every year. In all honesty, you’re not going to surpass that level of performance for less $$ with a DIY effort.
Hi,
Hrm, maybe I read things incorrectly. I was looking at threads where folk were using two full range drivers in a bipole configuration with one driver facing forward and the other(s) facing either behind, on top facing up, etc. Similar to an old Castle build but several different interrelations. I do realize that two full range drivers together with the same facing will have comb filtering and was reading that placing them on different faces on the enclosure helped.
I have read that larger tends to beam more than smaller and that the 4" are the sweet spot for this. I am curious though if it would matter in practice with only two seats if well within the beaming area of dispersion, such as 10~15 degrees from center of axis or less.
Thanks, good point about the baffle step compensation and cone break up areas. I wasn't even thinking of this stuff.
I appreciate commercial options, but it's not about saving money really, I just like to build and try new things. I'm a big fan of simple designs that just sound decent without lots of added electronics complexity but rather the fun of the enclosure and driver's relationship to sculpt output. I'm no expert, but I like to do new builds to learn and the fun part is being able to listen to the results.
Thanks for the reply!
Very best,
Hrm, maybe I read things incorrectly. I was looking at threads where folk were using two full range drivers in a bipole configuration with one driver facing forward and the other(s) facing either behind, on top facing up, etc. Similar to an old Castle build but several different interrelations. I do realize that two full range drivers together with the same facing will have comb filtering and was reading that placing them on different faces on the enclosure helped.
I have read that larger tends to beam more than smaller and that the 4" are the sweet spot for this. I am curious though if it would matter in practice with only two seats if well within the beaming area of dispersion, such as 10~15 degrees from center of axis or less.
Thanks, good point about the baffle step compensation and cone break up areas. I wasn't even thinking of this stuff.
I appreciate commercial options, but it's not about saving money really, I just like to build and try new things. I'm a big fan of simple designs that just sound decent without lots of added electronics complexity but rather the fun of the enclosure and driver's relationship to sculpt output. I'm no expert, but I like to do new builds to learn and the fun part is being able to listen to the results.
Thanks for the reply!
Very best,
Naturally, the configuration makes a difference and you want to define a purpose so you can work towards it.
A common use of front/back drivers is to do baffle compensation. The rear driver only plays below the baffle step. The end result is almost the same as a single front driver except you get more output and it can be easier to apply with the crossover.
If you run the rear driver full range then you have a different beast.
A common use of front/back drivers is to do baffle compensation. The rear driver only plays below the baffle step. The end result is almost the same as a single front driver except you get more output and it can be easier to apply with the crossover.
If you run the rear driver full range then you have a different beast.
https://voltloudspeakers.co.uk/full-range-speakers/
i use these in 16 ohm version crossover is built in specs for cabs on info sheet.
i use these in 16 ohm version crossover is built in specs for cabs on info sheet.
Car-audio has a lot of coaxial drivers with crossovers built. Also built-in coaxials usually have a crossover built in. Mind that the crossover from tweeter to woofer will be dialed in, the rest of the frequency response is shaped based on assumptions about likely use. I have a set of wonderful car coaxials that I thought I would really enjoy elsewhere, so I took them out of the car when I sold it. But it assumes so much cabin gain, that it is extremely bright in a normal room. Etc etc etc.
look my double horns, bipol, a lot of variation POSAUNE, RDH20, Kangling, Saxophon, Kornett might be your size. http://www.hm-moreart.de/1.htm
About the dipole, it might be a little tight as the enclosure should be at least 1.5m away from any wall. Ideally 2m.
But, you could do a second driver firing up, if you want to pursue the dual driver thing.
Close to your budget are the Visaton B80 and the ScanSpeak 10F. They are wonderfully well behaved drivers.
But, you could do a second driver firing up, if you want to pursue the dual driver thing.
Close to your budget are the Visaton B80 and the ScanSpeak 10F. They are wonderfully well behaved drivers.
I'm trying to find information about the driver facing forward and the driving facing up and the importance of the placement/distance relative to each other and if it's to be wired as a bipole or dipole and overall the benefit of that configuration. Also does that require a crossover?
Thanks so much 🙂
Very best,
I like the idea of trying that.
Would that be done via bipole wiring or dipole though? Or does that not matter in this configuration?
Also, earlier a crossover was mentioned, is that the case with this?
Any consideration to placement distance front and top or just centered?
Thanks again for the thoughts!
Very best,
Why not start with whatever placement happens, since this is intended as a flooding system. Up on top, the higher frequencies should be doing their own thing relative to the front driver.. especially once they get out into the room. The same might probably be said for placement relative to the panel edges.
Dipole is a very special case, there's no reason for you to use this reversed polarity scheme anywhere unless you know exactly why you want to.
Dipole is a very special case, there's no reason for you to use this reversed polarity scheme anywhere unless you know exactly why you want to.
Great thanks! Looking at some drivers now to see what will go well together and share cabinet volume and maybe do a bass reflex design to get closer to 40~60hz range if possible. So, wiring for bipole, basically wiring the two drivers in parallel, correct?
I've been eyeballing the CHP-70's.
Very best,
Whether to wire in parallel or series makes little difference to the speakers, but it changes things for the amp. Series requires less current per the drive signal, but needs more gain for the same output.
Thanks; I think was just looking at a diagram that explained dipole vs bipole wiring and one was series and one was parallel. Maybe it was backwards and if wired in series its a bipole? Just trying to understand so I know whether I need to get 4ohm speakers for wiring in series to 8ohm, versus needing to wire in parallel and needing 8ohm drivers to get back to 4ohm.
Very best,
I had a 3" driver in a small MLTL, and tried to put the same driver in a small sealed box on top, firing up.
It's not like OB, but it does give a more spacious sound, which I like better than drivers shouting directly at me only.
It also cleaned up the FR, this is with no EQ, no BSC.
It's not like OB, but it does give a more spacious sound, which I like better than drivers shouting directly at me only.
It also cleaned up the FR, this is with no EQ, no BSC.
Attachments
No, you can have either polarity in either configuration.
Those who build their own amps can do something for any impedance and drive level.
The point is that one is not inherently better than the other.. however, when it comes to buying an amplifier off the shelf then you need to consider the downsides of pushing an amplifier to it's various limits to fit your situation, and learning what those limits are.