Indeed!
The fane 12-250tc could be the best option of the big 12" pro drivers for the top end reach... but the celestion 12" 200tc FR has a smoother freq plot. With talk of needing to add a tweeter to even the Fane 250tc for better dispersion at the top, seems like you'd be better off just getting the celestion 12" 200tc. Or the 12lta. And adding a tweeter.
Or perhaps running the fane 250tc in Xrk971's XKi design could take the cake? There's much more to that design that I need to read so I understand it yet, but my interest is certainly piqued.
Wait, its not WWW anymore?! I thought the acronym "SAW" was already taken.. 🙂Subwoofer Assisted Wideband is the New Testamentrenounce the anachronistic acronym FAST
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I'm in two minds, which do you think is more truthful/accurate? Dave (Planet 10) likes WWW, he doesn't think a subwoofer goes high enough to blend with a wideband. BTW have you seen the thread on the Fane triple cone?
What does SAW mean?
What does SAW mean?
Oh either works for me, I'm just picking on you guys over the semantics of it.. 🙂
What would my concept be then?
Large full range, & hopefully not a helper tweeter
Large helper woofer(s?)
Large TH subwoofer for HT, mostly
Subwoofer Assisted Woofer Assisted Full Range?
SAWAFR? 😉
(SAW = Sausalito Audio Works)
What would my concept be then?
Large full range, & hopefully not a helper tweeter
Large helper woofer(s?)
Large TH subwoofer for HT, mostly
Subwoofer Assisted Woofer Assisted Full Range?
SAWAFR? 😉
(SAW = Sausalito Audio Works)
No, no, no, what's with this full range nonsense? That is the myth/lie I am determined to banish for ever into the bottomless pit
Also forgot to mention I was looking more into the audio nirvana drivers... not sure i realised their pricing was per pair before. They seem to have their devout followers and haters as well... I wouldn't be running them OB though, probably sealed/br/aperiodic. I think my budget there only gets me up to their 8" dia or so though... options options.
Trust me, you're in the majority once you leave this forum, so get some relatively cheap 15-21" and 'float'/'suspend' a wide range tweeter [sorry, small 'full-range' here 😉] in the center and use digital XO, EQ, delay, to blend it all together.
The electronics are advanced enough nowadays that you really can 'make a silk purse out of a sow's ear'.
GM
it would be interesting to see XKi for the Fane - with hornresp, I can fudge one little Karlfles and the Acoustic Control 115BK ("X15" size K-coupler). I should have measured that Faee when it was in my Karlsonator12 - (had a bad heaache for 3 days - hope my BP meds aren't losing effect)
115BK has ~2 cubic foot rear chamber ~1 cubic foot front chamber - have never loaded a 12" into mine
115BK has ~2 cubic foot rear chamber ~1 cubic foot front chamber - have never loaded a 12" into mine
Not the majority when you look at what's being marketed in the box stores, and what the average person buys...
I still remember hearing a then new 5.1 Bose acoustimass system for probably $1200 or so years ago. The owner was so impressed with it, but always had to say things like "it sounds really good when you consider how small the speakers are..."
Well, it sounded awful. Like a bunch of broken glass and several cats thrown into a burlap bag and shaken...
I'll stick with "bigger is better", though even with all this talk of big drivers I'm still keen to someday hear that A10.3 that Dave likes.
I haven't added any electronics for delay yet, was hoping not to... I can't tell if you're being serious or pulling my leg since I went with the electronic crossover... 🙂
Is there really all that much to be gained by making the woofer/full range concentric/coaxial?
I still remember hearing a then new 5.1 Bose acoustimass system for probably $1200 or so years ago. The owner was so impressed with it, but always had to say things like "it sounds really good when you consider how small the speakers are..."
Well, it sounded awful. Like a bunch of broken glass and several cats thrown into a burlap bag and shaken...
I'll stick with "bigger is better", though even with all this talk of big drivers I'm still keen to someday hear that A10.3 that Dave likes.
I haven't added any electronics for delay yet, was hoping not to... I can't tell if you're being serious or pulling my leg since I went with the electronic crossover... 🙂
Is there really all that much to be gained by making the woofer/full range concentric/coaxial?
Mass market consumer stuff don't count, otherwise 'HIFI' = Muzak at best. Let's face it, most folks have better audio systems in their vehicles and increasingly listen to music on their phones, HTiB or similar. Of the neighbors I know, none have a traditional music system.
Obviously, I'm not against small drivers as they have multiple uses when properly implemented, just anywhere near full range they're just too 'polite' for me, but would use them if I lived in some sort of attached housing or other situation where 'loud' isn't an option.
Nope, serious as a heart attack! I switched to bi, tri-amping, digital EQ, XOs in '70, though still needed some passive due mainly to damp the system and provide proper CD horn EQ. TD didn't come along until that system had mostly been sold off, but have auditioned many systems that use it, so will definitely use it if I ever need it again.
The pioneers made a number of successful coaxes like I mentioned using XO topology to offset the worst of the delay and I've auditioned large horn systems with large room length delays that are perceived as 'in time', so the delay at even 500 Hz with coincident drivers is trivial.
Depends on the driver sizes, XO point/slope and whether the LP is far enough away to appear as one, so the higher the XO point and/or the closer you sit, the more critical it becomes.
Some folks are more sensitive than others to boot, so a good test is to listen to someone 'running' a piano's keyboard or my fave is the music riff in Johnny Winter's 'Frankenstein'.
Love the music, but hearing his electric piano climb up a 7+ ft high corner system to the ceiling with increasing frequency drove me [bleeping] nuts, while some others thought it was 'way cool'/'groovy' [ugh!] sound effect. Fantasia's 'wraparound' piano, while not an accurate reproduction by going vertical, was still pretty nifty though 😉.
Anyway, like just about everything talked about on this thread require it requires you to do a bunch of testing to decide what works best overall for you in your app and if there's a woman to please, then smart to include her every step of the way cause they neither hear nor perceive sound the same way as men IME. Hint: be sure to include any of her music preferences that you're not fond of/flat can't stand!
GM
Obviously, I'm not against small drivers as they have multiple uses when properly implemented, just anywhere near full range they're just too 'polite' for me, but would use them if I lived in some sort of attached housing or other situation where 'loud' isn't an option.
Nope, serious as a heart attack! I switched to bi, tri-amping, digital EQ, XOs in '70, though still needed some passive due mainly to damp the system and provide proper CD horn EQ. TD didn't come along until that system had mostly been sold off, but have auditioned many systems that use it, so will definitely use it if I ever need it again.
The pioneers made a number of successful coaxes like I mentioned using XO topology to offset the worst of the delay and I've auditioned large horn systems with large room length delays that are perceived as 'in time', so the delay at even 500 Hz with coincident drivers is trivial.
Depends on the driver sizes, XO point/slope and whether the LP is far enough away to appear as one, so the higher the XO point and/or the closer you sit, the more critical it becomes.
Some folks are more sensitive than others to boot, so a good test is to listen to someone 'running' a piano's keyboard or my fave is the music riff in Johnny Winter's 'Frankenstein'.
Love the music, but hearing his electric piano climb up a 7+ ft high corner system to the ceiling with increasing frequency drove me [bleeping] nuts, while some others thought it was 'way cool'/'groovy' [ugh!] sound effect. Fantasia's 'wraparound' piano, while not an accurate reproduction by going vertical, was still pretty nifty though 😉.
Anyway, like just about everything talked about on this thread require it requires you to do a bunch of testing to decide what works best overall for you in your app and if there's a woman to please, then smart to include her every step of the way cause they neither hear nor perceive sound the same way as men IME. Hint: be sure to include any of her music preferences that you're not fond of/flat can't stand!
GM
Thanks GM, glad to have your input!
I know I need to try a bunch of things to see what I like... just hoping that heading off in a slightly more edu-muh-cated direction will be better than a shot in the dark!
And I include the mrs. in all this more than she'd prefer, hahaha. To her, a speaker is a speaker - it makes sound and that's all.. maybe she'll be convinced when it's all said and done.
It does amaze me that folks don't seem to listen to music rendered even remotely realistically... I see people all the time now listening to music from the tinny awful "media" speaker on their phones... yuck!
Jesse
Indeed.. not sure if I'd percieve this as "neat" or "annoying"... perhaps starting out at the former and over time tending towards the latter. Sort of an added dimension though, it might be cool for certain things!
I know I need to try a bunch of things to see what I like... just hoping that heading off in a slightly more edu-muh-cated direction will be better than a shot in the dark!
And I include the mrs. in all this more than she'd prefer, hahaha. To her, a speaker is a speaker - it makes sound and that's all.. maybe she'll be convinced when it's all said and done.
It does amaze me that folks don't seem to listen to music rendered even remotely realistically... I see people all the time now listening to music from the tinny awful "media" speaker on their phones... yuck!
Jesse
Freddi - hoping Xrk has time to run that Fane 12" FR, it might be pretty spectacular... if it is, I can see that being the motivation I need to finally commit and buy some speakers!
I'm still reading his thread, but I noticed that he has the driver still mounted at an angle from vertical, which means also an angle to the front K-aperture...
Is this done by necessity?
Or only to point the sound up somewhat to compensate for being on the floor?
I'd be stacking them on top of the helper woofer boxes, so figure bottom of the XKi would already be at a height of 30" or more depending on what that box/drivers ends up being... Meaning, I'd probably want the full range driver vertical as it would already be at ear height...
I'm still reading his thread, but I noticed that he has the driver still mounted at an angle from vertical, which means also an angle to the front K-aperture...
Is this done by necessity?
Or only to point the sound up somewhat to compensate for being on the floor?
I'd be stacking them on top of the helper woofer boxes, so figure bottom of the XKi would already be at a height of 30" or more depending on what that box/drivers ends up being... Meaning, I'd probably want the full range driver vertical as it would already be at ear height...
Hmmm....
A lot of smaller drivers beam as well. Compression driver horns are often used in the home *because* they can have limited dispersion. It's all kind of tricky in terms of lossy descriptions. Whether someone likes or hates something is to some extent related to their situation (room acoustics, music style, how loud you play).
I went from a single tiny fullrange driver to an array of the same driver simply to increase (vertical) beaming, as I have a reverberant room. I just started to use a 10" driver and it sounds great in the main listening position and fine outside it.
Comparing the tiny fullrange driver (excellent dispersion all the way into high treble, smooth response, overall lovely sound) to my first tries with the 10" (more beaming, less extended response, several peaks in the midrange), the 10" suprisingly sounds a little more refined because there is less indirect sound reflecting all over. And it has way more slam.
If you want to be highly technical about it, a multiway gives prettier graphs and often has beefier specs. If you want to explore and experiment, I would just get a driver that can in principle do a lot by itself and see if/how long you like it. If you miss something, start adding that (a woofer or a tweeter).
I'm fascinated by that driver. Working my way up. Hopefully finding out what that new 15" sounds like as well. ;-)
Thanks Ivo, that Fane 12" FR is what I'm looking at currently... (though I was curious about their 15 FR as well!) I'm wondering how it might do in a Karlson type alignment, specifically Xrk971's XKi enclosure. I plan on running a large helper woofer pair as well, so I don't need it to go especially low - I was really more curious on how using the K-aperture would improve the beaming by creating a wider dispersion. But you and others are right, that's not necessarily ideal in a room with a lot of wall echoes. I'll probably try it both sealed and in something like the XKi or Karlson.
Norman had mentioned here or somewhere else that the Fane beaming >10k hz was so bad that despite it reaching to 17k hz, a tweeter crossed in at 10k would make it more listenable. This is where I thought maybe the k-aperture would do its thing.
I'm really just trying to make the sweet spot the width of the couch - doesn't need to be wider than that (but ideally it's not just good for the person sitting dead center 🙂
For casual listening, I sometimes find I even like to be in an adjacent room.. somehow even the cymbals and other highs find their way there, and somehow it sounds more natural or something.. hard to describe.
Anyone know the answer to this?
Norman had mentioned here or somewhere else that the Fane beaming >10k hz was so bad that despite it reaching to 17k hz, a tweeter crossed in at 10k would make it more listenable. This is where I thought maybe the k-aperture would do its thing.
I'm really just trying to make the sweet spot the width of the couch - doesn't need to be wider than that (but ideally it's not just good for the person sitting dead center 🙂
For casual listening, I sometimes find I even like to be in an adjacent room.. somehow even the cymbals and other highs find their way there, and somehow it sounds more natural or something.. hard to describe.
Anyone know the answer to this?
I saw a thread where Freddi mentioned a baffle that was parallel to the front "curtain" panels, but in my searching I've not seen a Karlson type acoustic lense / k-aperture in this configuration.
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