Norman - thank you, thats good info.
I'm not sure that I have enough amp to run dual 15 woofers AND dual 12 full ranges, but the point is well taken.
So,
1. Need large cone area all the way up to ~750hz, so either the woofers need to reach that high (xo at 750) or the FR driver needs to be big to cross lower (xo at 150hz)...
2. The A10.3 has pretty minimal cone area, so it seems it would need to be crossed in much higher (750hz) if i were to use it, and let the woofers do the "slam".
3. Does using the horn contribute any slam in your comparison vs the 12" full range? Seems like its crossed in high enough to not, but..
How is the horn compared to the full range 12"? And which horn/driver? GM had suggested horns before but crossing at 150hz is too low for them .. 750hz would be high enough though. Curious to know what thise horn details are to get an idea if they'd fit in the budget.
Thanks!
Jesse
I'm not sure that I have enough amp to run dual 15 woofers AND dual 12 full ranges, but the point is well taken.
So,
1. Need large cone area all the way up to ~750hz, so either the woofers need to reach that high (xo at 750) or the FR driver needs to be big to cross lower (xo at 150hz)...
2. The A10.3 has pretty minimal cone area, so it seems it would need to be crossed in much higher (750hz) if i were to use it, and let the woofers do the "slam".
3. Does using the horn contribute any slam in your comparison vs the 12" full range? Seems like its crossed in high enough to not, but..
How is the horn compared to the full range 12"? And which horn/driver? GM had suggested horns before but crossing at 150hz is too low for them .. 750hz would be high enough though. Curious to know what thise horn details are to get an idea if they'd fit in the budget.
Thanks!
Jesse
Gm - sorry, which part was the first sentence of your message directed at?
I understand your second sentence, certainly the larger woofers force the xo freq down, though perhaps not low enough to affect the xo freq being discussed - 150 to 750... depending on the LF driver though maybe this can be an issue. I think even the 18s i looked at went out to 1k hz or so.
I was trying to cross at atound 150hz to keep the single driver magic alive, but at least with the electronic xover i can try lots of things to see what works for me...
Just need to choose drivers flexible enough to allow it.
here's a BP-horn (sealed rear chamber) cabinet for a weak motor Fonics 12 twin cone speaker by BesPav from the subwoofer forum loaded with the Fane 250TC - wonder what the mids and highs would sound like since in reality there would be no real attenuation from the front horn - ? its a 12" and FR 😀
Fane 250tc goes pretty loud with not too much power.
I think it runs around 95db 1w/1m.
Receiver is onkyo sr604 crossing at 150hz, 90w into 8ohms, is very loud.
Run wide open it will get blurry after tv loud levels, depending on music choice of course.
I think it runs around 95db 1w/1m.
Receiver is onkyo sr604 crossing at 150hz, 90w into 8ohms, is very loud.
Run wide open it will get blurry after tv loud levels, depending on music choice of course.
I'd guess the Fane and the A10.3 would both get loud enough (though no doubt the Fane would be louder), given a crossover & helper woofer to take the load off.
Crossed 150-750 hz, it seems that the Fane would hold the advantage on the lower side (towards 150 hz) since it could carry more of the "punch" with it's larger cone. On the higher side towards 750 hz, the A10.3 wouldn't need to carry the punch and would be smoother.
Or something like that w8-2145 tang band might be a compromise of somewhat large cone (probably Vd is what we're really talking about here, as has been pointed out), with a fairly smooth response.
Is there a better compromise?
Orrrrr, for a few dollars more, get the 3 way active electronic xover and could run helper woofer + modded 12lta running nearly full range (150-750 hz to ~8khz) + super tweeter... Except that requires yet another amp! 🙂
Did a bit more reading on the horns, and it seems that there's another degree of difficulty in getting it all to work together.. so I think it's best to pass on that adventure for now.. but it would be something interesting to try in the future.
Crossed 150-750 hz, it seems that the Fane would hold the advantage on the lower side (towards 150 hz) since it could carry more of the "punch" with it's larger cone. On the higher side towards 750 hz, the A10.3 wouldn't need to carry the punch and would be smoother.
Or something like that w8-2145 tang band might be a compromise of somewhat large cone (probably Vd is what we're really talking about here, as has been pointed out), with a fairly smooth response.
Is there a better compromise?
Orrrrr, for a few dollars more, get the 3 way active electronic xover and could run helper woofer + modded 12lta running nearly full range (150-750 hz to ~8khz) + super tweeter... Except that requires yet another amp! 🙂
Did a bit more reading on the horns, and it seems that there's another degree of difficulty in getting it all to work together.. so I think it's best to pass on that adventure for now.. but it would be something interesting to try in the future.
A large and very efficient full range in OB or in the right cabinet is the closest approximation to a good horn (which is much more problematic in many ways). I tried Oris horns and moved on. The AN drivers give me 95% of the horn magic without the head-in-a-vise sweet spot limitations.
The price one pays for Tractrix, but make a large enough waveguide and driver beaming dominates, though a large 'FR' driver has a somewhat 'head in vice' presentation too.
Still, for a single driver app I too prefer a large 'FR' driver to a small one; not as articulate, but overall more life-like sounding.
GM
Still, for a single driver app I too prefer a large 'FR' driver to a small one; not as articulate, but overall more life-like sounding.
GM
cheap high qts woofers such as MCM 12 inch sells for $19-23 could be used in multiples for an open baffle helper woofer - it would be good sometimes to find a 16 ohm driver to put 4 x 12 in parallel per side. Magnetar I think had an open baffle system with 4 or 5 10" per side, an Eminence "Buddy" 10 hemp cone mid then a waveguide on top. A horn subwoofer took care of the low bass.
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Yeah, when used in multiples over a relatively narrow BW, I've found that cheap drivers are the way to go, especially when one doesn't want to do a lot of woodworking.
GM
GM
I bought 8 pieces of dirt-cheap (around 7 bucks a piece) no name 10" drivers. I am planning to try Ripole or slot-loaded OB with them. I just want to say that it is worth experimenting with cheap drivers if you want to try a concept. If liked, then it can be upgraded with better, more expwnsive units. If not, then scrao, no big deal. But one has to try, and to accept the fact that the outcome may not be as expected at fist. The worst thing is to do nothing, and just endlessly contemplate..
xrk971 suggested an 80/20 split 150 liter internal volume "XKi" for 12lta
XKi - X's ab initio Karlson 6th Order Bandpass
a stronger motor such as this example by SredniVashtar with pym1298 (~Kappa12a) would be 65 liters total with a somewhat higher cutoff. I have 12cx with strong motors
XKi - X's ab initio Karlson 6th Order Bandpass
I would consider a simple sealed/aperiodic box for 12lta - add helper tweeter and a
powered subwoofer
XKi - X's ab initio Karlson 6th Order Bandpass
a stronger motor such as this example by SredniVashtar with pym1298 (~Kappa12a) would be 65 liters total with a somewhat higher cutoff. I have 12cx with strong motors
XKi - X's ab initio Karlson 6th Order Bandpass
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I would consider a simple sealed/aperiodic box for 12lta - add helper tweeter and a
powered subwoofer
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Thanks, at least I'm not the only person who likes the idea of the large full range for a full real life sound... 🙂
That's the beauty of this place- there's a good chance you'll find someone to agree with you about something
Those MCM woofers all seem to be high Q... none of them seem to want to go in a reasonably sized sealed box. Can't do open baffle with the living room unfortunately. Will keep looking. Should have seen the wife's face when I mentioned 4x 12" vs 2x 15" vs 1x 18" woofers... "but why... ughhh nevermind...!" I'm all for experimenting, I'd really love to - but short on time to do so. Though swapping the cheap drivers for better drivers isn't quite that simple if the enclosures were optimized for the cheapo drivers...
Too much work, too much kids, and too many other projects.. gotta stop wasting all this time sleeping at night!
I won't contemplate endlessly, but I keep finding more and more things to check out and read relating to this build/thread.. Ah, the internet...
Freddi! I was just reading that on my phone this afternoon! Wanted to look further into acoustic lensing, and was wondering if the K-aperture would disperse the beaming issues that some folks dislike on the larger FR drivers... and then I found that thread. Only a few pages in so far, but cool stuff! Nice work, you and mr. Xrk971!
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