Thanks Dave, the Goldwood GW-1858 could be an option, but not open baffle/H-frame as I don't have the room to pull them out from the wall the requisite amount. And when I try to model them in WinISD, I can't seem to get the curves to flatten out, always seem to have a big hump (13 dB!) at around 150 Hz due to having the box small to limit excursion below xmax... Larger box to flatten the curve and excursion goes thru the roof at fairly high frequencies. For the excursion to be relative to the volume turned up, I'm inputting 80w for system input power. The Goldwood 18 does not seem to like being in a box, I'm surprised there aren't excursion issues OB unless only running a couple of watts.
The PRV pro 18 in a sealed box looks best to me so far of the few I've modeled. That PRV and the Dayton pro 18 also look good in vented boxes, with deeper LF extension, but I'm concerned things will get too boomy and overwhelming. Anything better than a sealed cabinet for getting a good punch in the chest feeling from the 18" driver?
The PRV pro 18 in a sealed box looks best to me so far of the few I've modeled. That PRV and the Dayton pro 18 also look good in vented boxes, with deeper LF extension, but I'm concerned things will get too boomy and overwhelming. Anything better than a sealed cabinet for getting a good punch in the chest feeling from the 18" driver?
I've GW1858 in H-baffles and in years past, posted a response curve vs a Dayton 295-070 15" in a tapped pipe. GW1858 appear to have a progressive suspension and that along with reasonably low mass, do pretty well for boxless applications without bottoming out. (I used a Carvin amp) It sounds like you will need a different solution.
you can ask the subwoofer and multiway community about ways to get that chest feeling sensation/illusion.
you can ask the subwoofer and multiway community about ways to get that chest feeling sensation/illusion.
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Good point - I hadn't thought about it, but I guess that's not normally a full range sort of thing! 😉
Back on the FR subject, has anyone used those Tang Bands? The W8-2145's.
Tang Band W8-2145 8" Paper Cone Full Range Driver 8 Ohm
I'm sort of caught between the Alpair 10.3, 12P, and the W8-2145 TB. (I don't suppose anyone has sampled all 3?) I like the performance/price of the 10.3, like the larger cone size of the 12P, and like the larger cone size of the TB... All 3 have nice freq plots. The Alpairs have the advantage of lots of existing box designs, including the MarKen - my current favorite box.
Note: I've not totally discounted using a 12lta or fane 250tc, but price of the driver plus cost of a super tweeter to help out top end, plus added cost of a 3 way crossover... and the fancy Alpairs or TBs are suddenly a bargain! Also, the factory plot of the Fane looks okay, but the test plot from that Czech site that I linked to earlier, the response didn't look so good. Wish I could afford the time and money to just try them all! 🙂
I've also been digging deeper into bi-amping and using active crossovers... even though I said I wouldn't. That's probably a whole separate discussion, I'll start a post on that when I'm a bit more educated on it.
Would it be best to start a new thread for the helper woofer as well? We've strayed pretty par from the title of this thread, and my original intentions... for the best though, I think!
Haha, yes Scott you were right on the money, though not so worried about the beaming as the ragged freq response... But I had to work thru and understand all that to get back to the smaller full rangers. And I still like the bigger (of the smaller/normal sized) ones better! 🙂
You've certainly managed to engage a number of very knowledgeable people with this thread. It's been interesting to (try to) follow all the convoluted twists and turns 😉 Keep up the good work, PS, try not to get too hung up on all the graphs and parameters 😎
Thanks! I appreciate all the help, always best to learn from those who've already gone down this path!
Let me put in one last plug for the MarkAudio (I do like my 10p)...no whizzer. On top of that a well developed series of box designs. Seems I'm always stuffing foam behind or coating the edge, or otherwise battling any speaker with them. I may break down and buy the W8-2145 just to try. I'll report back.
Link to my thread on how to make all this work with bi-amping & active crossover with my current HT receiver, for anyone interested/bored:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...active-crossover-ht-receiver.html#post5161124
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...active-crossover-ht-receiver.html#post5161124
Hmmm... Well I'd be curious to hear what you think of the TBs compared head to head with the Alpairs if you do snag a pair of them. Not even quite sure how you'd do a fair comparison though... stick them both in their recommended sealed boxes to try and make it fair?
No doubt they are nice a nice design and probably pretty nice sounding with the two 12"s... Hoping that I can cheat and get as much or more low end using the single 18" in a simple sealed box - but maybe not since the TL/Horn design probably ramps up the sensitivity on those two 12"s.
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Still thinking about those W8-2145 tang bands vs the Alpair 10.3...
The 10.3 has half the mms so detail should be better, but the TB has much more cone area to move air with for mid-bass punch... Both frequency plots look good (to my eye anyway). Both drivers are very nice looking, and are reported to be of quality construction.
Seems like the smaller 10.3 would have more distortion trying to hit higher volumes at frequencies down to 150 hz (xo point) since I'd expect excursions to be larger to do so, vs the larger Sd Tang Bands (which have a smaller Xmax as well - 3mm vs 7mm for the A10.3) not needing to move as much for a given spl... Am I correct on this?
The 10.3 has half the mms so detail should be better, but the TB has much more cone area to move air with for mid-bass punch... Both frequency plots look good (to my eye anyway). Both drivers are very nice looking, and are reported to be of quality construction.
Seems like the smaller 10.3 would have more distortion trying to hit higher volumes at frequencies down to 150 hz (xo point) since I'd expect excursions to be larger to do so, vs the larger Sd Tang Bands (which have a smaller Xmax as well - 3mm vs 7mm for the A10.3) not needing to move as much for a given spl... Am I correct on this?
You’d think, but the nature & quality of the magnetic circuit also has to be considered. The quality of the surround & spider also play a role. There are so many other factors than Sd & xmax that one cannot make a proper analysis on just these numbers.
dave
I see... Certainly nothing better than actually listening to both, but even then they each have to be in optimized cabinets, etc. That's a bit frustrating! 🙂
Buy one of each and see which sounds better, then by a 2nd one of the better one? Ha!
Buy one of each and see which sounds better, then by a 2nd one of the better one? Ha!
Pairs are much easier to sell used — or used as a 2nd pair of boxes elsewhere.
Personally, having heard both the A10.3 and the W8-1772/1808 which looks to be an upmarket version of the 2145, i’d choose the Alpair any day, but i do not have the same listening priorities you do.
dave
Personally, having heard both the A10.3 and the W8-1772/1808 which looks to be an upmarket version of the 2145, i’d choose the Alpair any day, but i do not have the same listening priorities you do.
dave
Dave, I have no doubt your ears are much more sensitive (or golden, so to speak) than mine.. Why choose the A10.3? More detail?
I can appreciate the added detail being nice, I just worry that when I go from Bach to Disturbed I'll have them pounding their little hearts out.. even at >150hz.
And of course I'm looking for that "punch" I'm always blathering about! 🙂
I know it's probably asking too much for a speaker to do delicate detail stuff at soft volume one moment, and "party speaker mode" at >100dB the next... Life is a series of compromises though!
GM - But is/was there a reasonably priced horn that would go down to the frequency necessary to then have the horn act as the FR driver? I was pretty sure using a horn would kick me back into the multi-way arena... not that that's a bad thing, but I'm anxious to see how I like the full range + helper woofer (aka FAST).
Part of what I'm attempting here is to make it so that these new parts I'm acquiring give me lots of flexibility for the future, hopefully without a lot of additional expense. Trying a compression horn later in just a 2-way might well be a possibility, depending on what the top end of the freq range on the helper woofer looks like. <Which is basically what the econo-wave idea seems to be all about> I'm planning on using that behrenger active crossover (or similar, I've also seen some nice older stuff made by Biamp in the USA /others that might be as good or better), so I'll be able to play with the xo freq with different drivers. When I might have time for all this experimenting is another story though!
that would be a nice half-vintage setup - seems like it takes 2-15 per side direct radiator to do much (?) - with 2-15 + horn or waveguide its probably more sensible than a midbass horn of equivalent bulk - (assuming one's got raw power needed to drive) Some folks like hybrid compromise of horn such as Voice of The Theater with a short upper bass horn combined with reflex. For compromise vs big horn systems, I like K15 for certain reasons but this is a fullrange thread. You could put 12LTA in K15 - its been in the K-nator FWIW)
Freddi - Wait wait wait, two 15"s per side to do much when used as direct radiators? Specifically with the Altec drivers? Or in general? I was planning on a single 18" (sealed) per side, mostly maximize cone area (and hopefully thus "punch") vs. cost...
However, the amp I'm using to bi-amp is actually 4 ohm capable, so if I use it for the woofers, I could run two 8 ohm 15"s per side potentially...
2x 15" ~= 307 in^2 cone area
1x 18" ~= 254 in^2 cone area
So 2x 15"s would indeed have move more air (assuming equal xmax in this comparison), and would <probably> have more motor moving them.
I'd like to build a Karlsonator at some point, I'd like to hear it and like the uniqueness of it... But I'm sketchy on building it for what I hope is a "do it once, do it right" project..
At this point, I'd still like to hear the 12lta but it doesn't seem to fit what I'm looking for here... likely doesn't have enough low end grunt to make the punchy bass I'm looking for, and needs a helper tweeter up top... Seems like it would thus make a sweet 3 way system with the full range running nearly full-range as a mid. But to keep us on budget here, I'm sticking with the 2-way Woofer assisted full range idea (WAFR sounds better than FAST, lol).
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